Cerve
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Posts posted by Cerve
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I like the Lady, but I'm disapointed about other choices. Having a bug carrying an archer in that way it's just...silly? I'm an old oak, something riding an hawk would have been better imho. Or even a fairy, some flying ladies.
Same with the riding bugs.
I'm excited for the rules tho, finally! A new book. I still hope to find the city wanderers choices into this book with our beloved trees. #feelings
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2 hours ago, readercolin said:
In which case are you quoting?
1 normal unit and X shadow warriors? In this case I stated that the 1 unit has to be deployed to the table, which doesn't contradict hidden paths.
5 Normal units and X shadow warriors? In this case I stated that 2 of the units can be deployed on the hidden paths (5 / 2, rounded down is 2), which doesn't contradict hidden paths.
Oh sorry, my mistake! I got that you can keep (let's say) 3 SW in Shadows and 3 on Hidden Path (considering 6 units).
My bad
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On 2/15/2020 at 3:02 PM, readercolin said:
Yes. Also, to clarify a bit more:
If you have 1 normal unit, and 5 units of shadow warriors, that 1 unit has to be deployed on the table. All the shadow warriors can be deployed in the shadows and come down later. This is not a hidden paths deployment, but it is functionally identical as far as putting them off the board goes.
If you have 5 normal units, and then shadow warriors, 2 of the normal units can be deployed on the hidden paths.
Lastly, the only place where how it is deployed off the table matters. An assassin could be deployed via hidden paths. Or he can be deployed off the board to later pop out in a unit. Note, popping out later in a unit is a different method of deployment, and he comes onto the board at a different timing. This means that if you have an assassin, you will have to state how he is deployed, and then you are restricted on how he can enter the board.
Mmm...I'm not sure about that. Hidden Path says that you can deploy 1 unit for any unit deployed into the BATTLEFIELD.
And if you deploy Shadow Warriors into the shadow, you're not deploying them into the Battlefield.
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3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:
Can you even use Drycha's mercurial aspect if she isn't on the table?
Assuming you can, her single turn WDR is .081 which is indeed quite a bit better than the dreadlord. She only moves 9" though and doesn't fly, so that's something to consider.
Mmm...you know that I don't know? I always assumed I can...it's a mistake? I'm in doubt now
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1 hour ago, willange said:
Any reason why not Spear/Shield? I would think the shield was worth more.
Because you set him on flank, he comes, shoot at something just for trigger the Command Ability, he moves, and then charge. The crossobow is mandatory for triggering this (the spite it's only 8" and you must set up more than 9" from the opponent).
Anyway I still prefer Drycha on him. Both will die after the first charge, and betweent shooting and melee Drycha just put way more damage than the Lord. I tried both but Drycha is oustanding with her 36 dice(and a bunch of MWs as well).
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13 hours ago, Aelfric said:
I'm assuming your list also includes an extra CP, is that right? It is an interesting list. So, you can ambush on up to 4 units. Would that be Drycha and 3 x 10 Sisters, leaving the NP to buff the other two. I only have 20 Sisters painted myself and not sure I want to paint another 30, but it does look like a fun list to play. I might try a version of it sometime. Just about to start painting up a TLA - I like the idea of throwing down a wood, but maybe turn 2 in their backfield.
Yep, precisely. 3 Sisters and Drycha. Of course you can choose between games, maybe sometimes you need a castle so you will keep more Sisters on the ground. But I'll admit, 2-3 Sisters+Drycha are a good pack for outflanking maneuvres.
TLA, you can try the Dryads factory. Another stuff that I need to try too
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13 hours ago, Raffonerd said:
I suggest you to change item on the prince. Use +1 aa to all Sylvaneth.
Yes, I was thinking about that. I can't really find a good artifact for this list, maybe the Horn is really the best after all.
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7 hours ago, Rune said:
Mind sharing your list? :). Sounds like fun!
I come from 40k where I used to play it competitively, but AoS it's a different game and I need to find some inner balance to the list. Anyway the last one I played vs Ossiarch was a bit unbalanced into shooting and it was this:
Nomad Prince General (Druid, Ghyranstrike from Ghyran, Ironoak Skin)
Battlemage Hysh (Adjutant, Lifesurge)
Drycha (Cage of Thorns)
5x10 SotW
9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
+1 CP, Total; 1980
The damage output is great, but I'm keeping learning about timing. My last game was a loss because I came in game too late (he beats me on VPs).
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Just other 2 cents that I can bring in the discussion is why I prefer Sisters above all other choices in Living City (and here only).
The best way to play LC that I found is about scattering threats all over the edges. Or, better, keeping this opportunity. There's some few matched where castling up it is better, but most of the time I play a mind game with my opponent by scattering (usually) 4 units in multiple edges. That mean: 1) no buffers with Sisters on the edge; 2) no screens for them on the edge; 3) no multiple Sisters units within 13-15"+ themselves, and 4) never use more than 10 Sisters per unit. Do I need to disrupt the advancing of the opponent? I just throw 10 within 18" from him, dropping 21 shoots and then...I'm there. He needs to kill them with shoot (drawing away his fire from my core), magic (forcing him in casts that he won't do), and (the best) forcing him to come back and charge them. Now multiply this for any outflanking unit and you have an idea. Thanks to the range you can focus the same target some times from 2 different edges. The best you will find out with LC is to force your opponent to split himself. Sisters are expendable, for 160 points they bring to you a lot if you play them in this way. Expecially against full melee army (Ironjawz, FeC etc) you can literally play with your opponent.
You can castle if you need to. Try multiple of 10 sisters shielding themselves, make them all shoot once after an enemy charge and try to lose only the first screen of the castle.
You can outflank and killing out some warmachines, or sniping some mages, minor heroes.
You can focus a single target, shooting from different positions (I found 3x10 Sisters and Drycha an amazing amount of attacks/MWs to ourflanking with. And of course, make charge Drycha with 1CP).
And don't forget about moving 10 Sisters after the shoot just for screening if you need to! It helps too a lot them to give some good position for the next turn double shots without moving.
Basically, I love LC because the keyword here is "Adaptability". And SotW are the best choice for me with no buffs at all, because a lot of time I will send them alone as a merely (powerful) distraction that cannot be left alive because their shooting is a pain in the ---.
Plus, I saw a lot of maths, but I'm not sure someone remembered another super good rule of them: they shoot once free if someone enter within 3" from them, with a charge. So most of the times you're going to shoot almost THREE times with them, not just two. And that means: 1) you're shooting when they charge you; and 2) you're shooting when you're behind an enemy charge target (I used it a lot behind 9 Kurnos Hunters..).
I'm not saying that SotW are the best alwayas and ever. I'm just argue about how I play LC, the best way for me, It is not like bringing a super charge or a castle from an edge of your choice. No, it's like making guerrilla: spread between more edges at the same time, drawing enemy attentions away from the core of the game/your army. And with this in mind, Sisters are the best for me. Because they shoot even """in melee""", and because their threat is really good with no buffs and by themselves.
If I would go with Irondrakes, I think I would prefer something TempestEye, and I would try to build a castle with them.
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9 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:
The question is a mathematical one, so let's look at the math.
30 Sisters of the Watch, unbuffed
- Vs no save: 33.61 damage (.07 damage per point)
- vs 6+: 29.12 damage (.061 damage per point)
- vs 5+: 24.65 damage (.051 damage per point)
- vs 4+: 20.17 damage (.042 damage per point)
- vs 3+: 15.69 damage (.033 damage per point)
- vs 2+: 11.2 damage (.023 damage per point)
30 Sisters of the Watch, buffed (+1 hit)
- vs no save: 41.67 damage (.087)
- vs 6+: 36.11 damage (.075)
- vs 5+: 30.56 damage (.064)
- vs 4+: 25 damage (.052)
- vs 3+: 19.44 damage (.041)
- vs 2+: 13.89 damage (.029)
30 Irondrakes, unbuffed
- vs no save: 27.55 damage (.061)
- vs 6+: 27.55 damage (.061)
- vs 5+: 23.26 damage (.052)
- vs 4+: 18.67 damage (.041)
- vs 3+: 14.07 damage (.031)
- vs 2+: 9.48 damage (.021)
30 Irondrakes, buffed (+1 hit, -1 rend, rr 1s to wound)
- vs no save: 40.19 damage (.089)
- vs 6+: 40.19 damage (.089)
- vs 5+: 40.19 damage (.089)
- vs 4+: 33.92 damage (.075)
- vs 3+: 27.22 damage (.06)
- vs 2+: 20.53 damage (.046)
30 Freeguild Crossbows, unbuffed
- vs no save: 20.22 damage (.067)
- vs 6+: 16.85 damage (.056)
- vs 5+: 13.48 damage (.045)
- vs 4+: 10.11 damage (.034)
- vs 3+: 6.74 damage (.022)
- vs 2+: 3.37 damage (.011)
30 Freeguild Crossbows, buffed (+2 hit, +1 wound)
- vs no save: 41.67 damage (.139)
- vs 6+: 34.62 damage (.115)
- vs 5+: 27.78 damage (.093)
- vs 4+: 20.83 damage (.069)
- vs 3+: 13.89 damage (.046)
- vs 2+: 6.94 damage (.023)
I think that these numbers illustrate my point nicely. With a high rend option (like buffed Irondrakes), you see really flat efficiency against poor saves but good efficiency against good saves. With a no rend option like Crossbows you see great efficiency against poor saves that falls off sharply as the save gets better.
With a mixed option like SotW, you see more consistency across different saves. The peaks aren't as high, relatively speaking, but the valleys aren't as low either.
Comparing the tables shows that without the benefit of buffs, Sisters of the Watch have the best overall performance although the difference between Sisters and Irondrakes is really small. Freeguild Crossbows are pretty competitive against poor saves but significantly worse against really good saves.
Once you factor in available buffs, Irondrakes become significantly better than SotW except against null saves. This is the flattening that I was talking about earlier -- high rend is relatively inefficient against low armor. Meanwhile, Freeguild Crossbows just blow the other options out of the water against low saves. It's not even close to close. SotW only surpass crossbows against a 2+ save, although they are very close at 3+. Meanwhile, Irondrakes pass crossbows against a 4+ save and are markedly better against 3+ and 2+ saves.
Here are the defensive efficiencies:
Sisters of the Watch: .094-.063
Irondrakes (melee): .133-.067
Irondrakes (ranged): .2-.067
Freeguild Crossbows: .12-.1
Additionally, Sisters of the Watch have a slight speed advantage, slight range advantage over Irondrakes, the benefit of stand and shoot (although at half strength) and require the lowest effort to buff (only a Nomad Prince OR Hurricanum). Offensively they are probably the most efficient choice without buffs, and they perform decently against any armor type. Defensively they are the least efficient.
Irondrakes have the lowest speed and lowest range and require the highest effort to fully buff (Longbeards, Runesmith, and Hurricanum), but they have a slight extra bonus against monsters. Defensively they are the most efficient against low rend attacks, and are by far the most efficient against low rend shooting.
Crossbows have medium speed and require medium effort to buff (Freeguild General and Hurricanum) but enjoy the longest range by far. Defensively they are middle of the pack against low rend and by far the best against mortal wounds.
TL;DR: Mathematically speaking all of these options are valid and all have a role depending on the composition of the rest of your list.
Pretty nice write! thanks
it helps alot
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9 hours ago, swarmofseals said:
The other thing to consider about SotW is that their design tends to make them less efficient in practice than they are on paper. Against targets where you really want the mortals, the shots that fail will be inefficient and the reverse is true for targets against which the regular shots are efficient. Irondrakes on the other hand are consistent.
In fact I found quite the opposite. Against light targets Sisters shine and thar MW it's just a double wound on 6s (which is pretty good for maths). But if I need, I can focus theme on hard targets precisely for those MW. While I find rend-1 something less specific. I mean, against ts2+/3+ it's not enough and against ts6+/- it's nearly redundant. Sisters gives me that edge against 2+/3+ that Rend-1 can't afford, and they just adds double wounds on 6s on light targets.
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13 hours ago, Tidings said:
I figured that's what he meant but it's a misleading way to write it, because of the 9" bubble and the fact that it's not a true 24" threat range; you only shoot once if you move.
I get everything you are saying and agree that it is very strong. It's the same thing when playing against FEC basically, but even better than FEC. The main thing I don't like is that it can still be played around. I have never lost to an ambushing army in tournaments because if you build a good list, you will have cheap screeners and you can decide what is okay to let die and screen what you need to win. It definitely forces your opponent to play smart and make tough choices, but it's always able to be played around by a good player who made a good list.
Regarding Irondrakes and Sisters, Irondrakes are mathematically more efficient. They do more damage per point than the more expensive sisters, carry buffs better, all while being more durable. Mortal Wounds are nice though and they're pretty close so it really is preference. Here's a chart though in case you are curious!
Graph is comparing units of 30, and does NOT factor in the point cost - just damage output. Buffs include +1/+1 as you can do that in TE easily, and Irondrakes also have their rending improved (which you can stack btw, I only show it once)
Thanks for sharing! But I don't use TE anyway, I can't consider something that needs to stay still for shooting without the LC trait/abilities. I wouldn't play Sisters nor Irondrakes with TE. Outflanking it's just a perfect design for these two units in my opinion.
Good to see that sheet anyway. I'm in love with Witcher universe so mixing Aelves and Dwarves makes me feel Scoiataelish
I will bring some dwarves with me in the future.
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13 hours ago, Tidings said:
It can be awesome for sure, but I've found that at tournaments where your opponents will generally be good players, you'll often be screened out of range from shooting any meaningful target. If they don't screen you out then it's a great alpha strike, but the same goes for bridge. I love our flexibility and options
Also, how are you getting 24"? I'm confused there.
Lastly, while Sisters are great, Irondrakes are more efficient in terms of both damage and durability per point.Well, you need to be a good player too
Usually, I use Systers for killing screens already so it's not an issue for me. The thing is not that a good player will screen you; it is that a good player NEED to screen all his army, constantly. It is not an issue, it's an edge.
The strongest thing about LC is this. You force the opponent to screen everything in his list. Because you can pop up, multiple times, wherever you want. He's not free to spread until you pop out, and he needs to spread then because you're going to appear wherever he won't. That's the best thing about LC. He can't just act freely, because if he expose just one side you're going to hit there. And you're going to hit something for sure: 24" (6"+18" range for Sisters) from any edge, any turn, it's enough. If you're pushing in the middle, there's no way that you oppo will be at 25" from ALL the edges, ALL the game. No way. It chockes him pretty badly.
Of course you need to balance what you're bringing in table and what you're take in reserves, but that's the puzzle of this city (and why it is so good to play with). I like to play a solid anvil as 9 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes and else for the ground. I tried the Black Dragon too (from edges, charging the same turn) but I don't like too much...I think I'll try Drycha tomorrow, I find her more reliable. The fact is that you can choose everything before the game and in game: you can choose who will be in reserves and who don't, when you'll pull out them etc. Sometimes you will prefer keeping SotW in game, some others you'll find them better outflanking. This city is extremely adaptable.
About Sisters/Irondrakes, I prefer Sisters for the better range and (most of it) mortal wounds (which are added to normal wounds). Plus, having a Nomad Prince in list, it brings me the opportunity for an heavy shooting alpha/beta strike with multiple SotW units if I need.
But it is how I builded the list. Irondrakes are good too.-
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12 hours ago, amsoly said:
Ive been running 2 10x sister units in my games and they definitely put out some damage. But they’re fragile! Bravery 7 helps them stick around.
That's true, but I don't rely on them. I mean, I like her as distractions. They pop and shoot at weaker positions, clearing objectives and most of all forcing my opponent to come back facing them. What push me to belive that LF is secretly the best city overall it's because the mix between alpha/betastrike (basically, your units are always going to do some damage before dying) and the map control. You force your opponent to split all around the board (because you have to manage those sisters, or they are going to shoot you down every turn). It is the perfect guerrila style. Yes it has an high skillcap, but if you manage it it is the best city imho.
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Personally, i disagree. I tried SotW yesterday, and deploying in every table edge when you prefer is stunning tactically. And you shoot twice with a range of 24", pretty difficult to avoid. TE bonusses are way worse than that.
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3 hours ago, GM_Monkey said:
You need to purchase the in-app ebook Grand Alliance Order to be able to access the Waystone Pathfinder battalion in app. But the "Grand Alliance: Order" is missing from the store in app which looks like a bug. You can report this to them if you want. However it's easy enough to find the Battalion rules online. (I've just e-mailed them about it cause it's a bit bad).
Most Terrain rules seem to be missing as well from the app. The Wyldwood pdf is available from the games workshop website.
Yeah I was looking for any change, but guess they still both the same (Waystone and Wyldwood) right?
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edit.
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Sorry a question about the app. Why I can't open the Waystone Pathfinder? I must search for that because it doesn't appear normally, and the app says that I need to purchase: "books". Which I don't really got what that means... is that a problem? How can I find it?
PS: and I can't find neither the Sylvaneth Wyldwoods warscroll anyway. Is that only my issue?
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Sorry a question about the app. Why I can't open the Waystone Pathfinder? I must search for that because it doesn't appear normally, and the app says that I need to purchase: "books". Which I don't really got what that means... is that a problem? How can I find it?
PS: and I can't find neither the Sylvaneth Wyldwoods warscroll anyway. Is that only my issue?
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Sorry a question about the app. Why I can't open the Waystone Pathfinder? I must search for that because it doesn't appear normally, and the app says that I need to purchase: "books". Which I don't really got what that means... is that a problem? How can I find it?
PS: and I can't find neither the Sylvaneth Wyldwoods warscroll anyway. Is that only my issue?
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So....they took BOLTER-CROSSBOW in a game where the longest range weapons are a long stick, a kunai and an Axe with a chain.
Nice..
it helps alot
AoS 2 - Living City Discussion
in Cities of Sigmar
Posted
I'm interested into 6 Seekers+6 Lancers, and the Horn artifact. Both the hoppers have 2 melee weapons, it means +2 attacks for each once per game. Could be an interesting alpha strike/beta strike.
Lancers because of fight first, then Seekers following up. If you can play 3 Sylvaneths, Drycha is another unit with 2 melee weapons.
I like Gossamid Archers too for melting away. In Living City you would even try 10 of them, their sniping potential is pretty good imho, and melting away of 12" sounds nasty