[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

49 minutes ago, Doko said:

Have you even read my post?i have wriitten as 15 post saying how play with the new book and in my last 15 post i havent said anithing about the book bad or all bad.

I have said what is th best units and what play competitive that is 100% the oposite that you are saying

I think the issue is that you are completely dismissive of anyone who suggests they want to try something different from your suggestions. 

You claim to be trying to offer advice and be helpful, but your tone is condescending, and your advice is just the same thing over and over again. "Bring Hearthguard. Everything else is worthless." You dismiss out of hand anyone who disagrees with you, even if they present evidence to support thier opinion. 

FWIW I am not bothered by your posts, but it's also not surprising to me that you are rubbing people the wrong way. Try being open to discussion. I know you play competitively, but unless you're some big AoS tournament champion, we're all just a buncha schlubs chatting about the rules for fake battles with some naked mohawk dwarves. 

[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

16 minutes ago, DrewGo said:

What rule multiplies number of attacks? 

Enhanced rune of Fury adds 1 attack to melee weapons. Lord of the lodge does the same. They don't multiply. So if you were to get the enhanced rune, or use the heroic action to get it, and also pop Lord of the Lodge your Runefather gets +2 attacks that turn. 

I'm dumb. Realizing now you mean the Blood of the Berzerker ability that lets him attack twice with strike last. 

I see no reason the extra attacks from runes and lord of the lodge wouldn't apply because the ability specifically says "after it has already attacked" it can declare it is going berzerk.

 

 

[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

5 hours ago, Doko said:

How work the ale of x2 attacks and the +2 attacks of father and rune?

What rule multiplies number of attacks? 

Enhanced rune of Fury adds 1 attack to melee weapons. Lord of the lodge does the same. They don't multiply. So if you were to get the enhanced rune, or use the heroic action to get it, and also pop Lord of the Lodge your Runefather gets +2 attacks that turn. 

[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

23 minutes ago, Doko said:

The problem with the extra 3 dmage with stomp that sound great again in paper,but in games everyone is a monster or is inside the battallion of inmune to stomp.

So usually only gonna can use stomp on non monsters heroes. To me the reduce damage in 1 of mount trait is 100% autoinclude and only gonna use the others 2 in some lofnyr list.

Maybe be the meta in my city and tournaments where i go,but usually people get the inmune stomp batallion before the one drop or more enhacements.

 

Good point. I mostly play in a PtG league, so Monsters and Battalions are harder to come by and I didn't think of Hunters of the Heartland. 

[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

6 hours ago, Doko said:

Yes,the core is father+hgb15 then two son+hgb10. That is 1400 points and if the father is general we have the battlelane allready.

So now the question is: what get for that 600 points?

1-One smith on magma so we dont loose the free mount trait and one runemaster + gyrobomber or copter so we have a dwarf army

2-one sc dragons so we have monsters with high mov,runemaster and runesmitter

I guess option 2 is more competitive but isnt full dwarfs.

Also get the best enhacement of father that can be overkill(axe of grimnir) or use it with one son that with only 10hg maybe need more that extra damage.

I know i have been very negative(and i think this book is less competitive than our old book yet),but now i start to feel some excitement with the deathstars of footheroe and hg

Personally I think you take the Magmadroth with Runesmiter. Obviously SC Dragons are really good, but I think the new droth profile is going to do some serious work. Plus the obvious benefit of getting buffed by your runes. The 3 extra mortals on a stomp trait is really good. That's 4 guaranteed mortals every turn with a possibility of 6 before it even fights. New shooting profile can do serious damage to big units as well. Then you take a Runemaster and honestly I think a Battlesmith might be worth taking even if he probably does still get shot off the board. The possibility if rallying back a bunch of HGB is too tasty to not give yourself a chance. 

[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

9 hours ago, Doko said:

And as you said a single unit of vulkites even buffed only makes as 7 wounds to save4 units

This is not what I said. I said 7 Vulkites are doing 7 wounds on a charge even if they're NOT buffed by a hero.

10 hours ago, Doko said:

But 7 wounds to a unit of 30 models with 30+ wounds these 7 wounds done dont matter and gonna attack back and delete the vulkites.

If you're attacking a block of 30 models there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to get a full unit to attack by honeycombing, which adds 9 more attacks, and 3 more wounds on average on a +4 save. Moreover, killing Vulkites actually isn't as bad because they all get to attack again, which means 10 more wounds. Again, that is before accounting for what rune is active, and before accounting for the potential buffs from heroes (runefather giving extra attacks, Flamekeeper boosting damage output). With -1 rend, you're looking at 13-14 wounds, doubled if they all die. If that big unit is 30 models with a +4 save, you just killed 26-28 models with a 10 model, 170 point unit. Sure you lost the unit, but I can't imagine a scenario where that's not a positive trade in your favor. 

10 hours ago, Doko said:

But  meanwhile 15 hearthguards can attack every model and can kill these units of 30+ wounds.

Using base stats, 15 HGB with axes are averaging 17 wounds to a +4 save unit. If you have the -1 rend rune active it jumps to 22 wounds. Obviously this is better, but you're still not doing enough to kill the unit of 30 wounds, and 15 HGB are almost 3x the number of points as 10 Vulkites, comparing the damage output of a 480 point unit and a 170 point unit is really silly without taking that into account. 

In terms of average damage output per point against a +4 save unit, before hero and rune buffs and without dying, Vulkites (in Vostarg) do 0.076 wounds per point on a charge, and 0.026 wounds per point if they didn't charge. HGB do 0.035 wounds per point either way. 

HGB are a better unit than Vulkites, but it absolutely is not because they do more damage per point. The reason HGB are better is because they have the 4+ ward and bodyguard ability. 

I get that the 1" reach can be a limiting factor for the Vulkites, but it's not so limiting that they become "bad." It just means you probably don't want to run huge blocks of 30 Vulkites. 

[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

Btw seems more people testing the book against the meta armys got the same conclusions that i got even before play one game lol

-vulkites havent damage for his cost

-flamekeeper and battlesmith are useless

-magmadroths arent competitives

-foot heroes with hg and retinue are our best unit and also greyfird

 

I gonna copy\paste the post that is in reddit,so credit to who posted it in reddit and not me.

 

Friend and I traded lists and armies in different situations to see how the new book theory crafting was working out. We pinned them against some of the top Metas:

• Legion of the First Prince
• Ironjawz - Bloodtoofs
• Sons of Behemat
• COS - Living Cities (4x Fulminators, Stormdrakes, Irondrakes)
• Daughters of Khaine

Sorry, no SCE (neither of us play them). A waste of testing if you forget things. No LRL because even though I love em, they aren't in the Meta now. But IDK will likely be in it if not top by next month.

We are both had made mock up 3 lists in similar fashion that we alternated playing while the other played an opposing army they well knew. We adjusted the lists between battles as we saw things that weren't working. For timing sake, when things went to ****** by turn 1/2 (and it routinely did), we called it because we knew what was going to happen. But technically ... by doing this we didn't see any late game come backs. Sadly for the FS, there isn't enough cheeky action or movement shenanigans in which what is going to take place on turn 3/4, and those turns are completely predictable for this army.

Some of the results are skewed as we misread a couple of rules. Particularly the Runefather's reincarnation of Lords of the Lodge. For the first few games we assumed this was Once a battle per RF, but that's bad literacy on our part. It's Once per Game, no matter the quantity of RFs. For that reason some games have a bad setup and Bad Turn 2 results.

Ultimately we tried out about 3 different setups with varying degrees of changes as we played:

1. Lofnir - Simply 1 RF on Magma + 5 Runesons on Magmas

Hilarious! For Legion and DOK, it was pretty well done. It almost tabled them turn 1/2. On his using it, he went all out all 6 in your face, which commonly resulted in losing of 2 RSs before they could fight. I would stagger and save Roaring Fyrestream for turn 2. Did a lot better that way. Living Cities, SoB it was as you'd guess - Horribly spectacular. It was funny tying up the 30x of Irondrakes. Basically killed them once they came out and 3x RS went after them. But, Dragons barely survived and that was enough to constantly hold points.

Ultimately our determination of the 6 Magmas Lofnir list was quote "value brand SoB". If you want alpha, then IJ's Mighty Destroyers is king. Only SOB have the Wounds to "full on moron flop" (also a fun quote last night) into the other side.

I feel Lofnir's 6 Magma spam advantage would be better if more MWU were in the meta. Maybe they will be with IDK and Nighhaughts getting a new BT. Saving the Roaring Fyerstream was a lot of damage. But for other big units - we might have more damage for sure, but not enough to clear 30-40 wounds. However it was plenty to mop up Belakor, Kairos and a Bloodthirster in turn 2.

2) Gotrek and Friends - Greyfyrd

Here is where we spent a lot of time. I think ultimately we both agreed on this list by our 4th play:

Warlord: Runefather (General, Leader of Duardazhal, Axe of Grimnir), Runesmiter (Arcane Tome, Prayer of Ash), Battlesmith (Nulsidian Icon), 10x VGBHunters of Hearthland: Grimwrath Berzerker (Daught of Magma Ale), Gotrek Gurnisson, 10x HGB (BA)Other: 10x VGB, 10x HGB

Originally we had 2x Runefathers instead of another VGB, because we thought you could have two uses of LotL, but that was played wrong. And that alone gave some ridiculous skewing on the results.

This lists did okay, not great and I'll get to why even though it won its battles, we weren't willing to say good or great. It won most of the games. Doing the damage and hold out it needed to on SOB and IJs. But did have issues with COS and DOK, but still pulled the win. LoFP was a wash in 2 games. Even with a good amount of anti-spell, it wasn't enough. The summoning just meant the First Prince player controlled the board.

In the 6 games we did with versions of this lists we were so excited about about the Gotrek buff, BUT it didn't matter. Because like all games, no one who knows Gotrek will on purpose engage him. In one game with COS, I thought it was funny so I shot him off the board with 2 rounds of Irondrakes. But that because I was losing anyway.

Here is also where we realized Foot Runefather with an Artifact like Draught or Axe of Grimnir with a HGB retinue is actually better than Gotrek. It's terrifyingly tough and hits like a tank. The Royal Retinue might be the savior of the BattleTome. They can't snipe your General because of bodyguard and this insures the ward on the HGB - AND - More importantly Dauntless Assault is amazing, because now your RF hits like a beast and now your HGB goes right after, EVEN if you used Counter Attack. HGB were a Wall before, but no with the RF, it's a a Death Ball.

Because this list has no natural monsters you have to take Arcane Tome to cast Metamorphosis to gain those fringe VPs.

As well, neither of us really got to see Battlesmith do all his glory. He was always sniped out or IJ/SOB would just barrel for him. One game we agreed to not be Aholes and attacked the VGB and let the Battlesmith do his thing. I mean, it was neat. VGB went down to 3 against a GoreGrunta charge. Battlesmith brought back 4. Neat. But then they died fully.

VGB on there own, not depending on buffs from Battlesmith and Flamekeeper (who we quickly abandoned in our list) did well. Their entire point is to kill something with them before they go and that's perfect. Averaged 6 Wounds before it went. If your opponent tries to avoid charging them thinking that saves them from the Fury + Counter Attack, then instead you charge and get your attack bonus. It's nearly a win/win. We started to theorize that VGB Vostarg spam might be the way to go, BUT honestly in most cases we were trading 20 of our Wounds (VGB) to output 6-7 wounds on them. Sure that goes up a bit with Vostarg, but with armies like IJ or SOB they would just plow through and accept the wounds gracefully and keep hauling at near a dent of damage. In that one case as an example 6x Goregruntas charged them (not with Waaagh or even Violent Fury yet) and near wiped the VGB (and that's important to now because a Waagh and Violet Fury Grunta stack of 3x even would simply just wipe the VGB) and the VGB killed 1 boar, which was going to be sacrificed to Coherency anyway. BS brings back 4, and then it gets obliterated on the next turn. In the end, it didn't technically kill anything, but it tied up that 6 stack for a double turn. Was that worth 170 pts? I didn't think so. But then again, not everything is Goregrunta level of alpha damage. But they are certainly rampant in the meta, so hard to ignore. But then again if I had VF or Waaagh, no VGB to bring back.

So ultimately this list held most of it's games. Gotrek goes unmolested, holds whatever he wants slowly chasing something. HGB with RF are the heroes of the games, lasting through almost any amount of damage and then giving it back beyond compare. BUT ... I couldn't call it "great". Because generally your par per turn on VP is 4 and that's basically what this list gets. Par 4. With arcane tome, you can get that to 5 VPs, but you're commonly unbound. So ... 23 VPs won the matches and would go 4-1 or even possibly 5-0, but at 120 VPs isn't top 10 in a GT. We struggled to see how to get to 150+. That's list the theory craft of list #3.

3) HGB are my Gods - Greyfyrd

I call it "Old School Cool", he called it "You Stubborn Dwarf" list.

Warlord: Runesmiter on Magmadroth (Droth Helm, Prayer of Ash), Runefather (General, Blood of the Berzerker [or Spirit of Grimnir], Axe of Grimnir), Runeson, Runeson, Battlesmith (Nusidian Icon), 10X HGB (PA)Hunters of the Hearthland: Grimwarth (Draught), 15x HGB (BA), 10x HGB (PA)

This was born from seeing the VGB not really do the amount that I wanted and seeing that HGB retinues are a serious problem for most armies to chew through. So RF and 2x RS with full outfits. RF with 15x HGB goes to center, RS with 10x HGB go outsides, Runesmiter and Battlesmith stagger the sides and come help which ever HGB line needs it. Grimwrath for the fun of it.

This was harder to chew through than the #2 list for the opponent. In almost no case was a HGB completely destroyed. Impossible to remove the RF/RS from the stack. And now the Runesmiter on Magma can pick up cheeky points for VPs. In some cases, we found ourselves locked in combat and would decide not to attack with the HGB to save the unit (monster) for the next turn for the Magma to kill. Think of how stupid that is. "I pass". You what? There's 9 HGB right there. "I pass, let's go onto battleshock".

I played it twice, but only fought it once with DOK. You sit there and look at the stacks and go "What am I going for here? What's the biggest threat?" And your answer is '******'.

I sniped the Battlesmith and just started notching the Runesmiter taunting me behind 3 stacks of HGB. I had no answer for the HGB. I spent an entire army trying to kill 1 Runeson 10X HGB stack for Round 3 and was done. The only thing I accomplished was killing the Runesmiter to deny VPs. But as I my friend pointed out, that's driven by spite. You don't play to deny VPs (unless it's game 5 and you can see your opponent is placed #1 and youre #2), you play for your VPs. A loss of 35-34 is meaningless in terms of being a "loss". A win of 24-23 is meaningless if your objective is podium.

#3, though not fully play tested, with using the old Stacking HGB is as it was, formidable. At first I would call it a nerf based on points alone, but the reality is with the Retinue you are near guaranteed Ward protection plus extra damage. The new Runes really do increase your output, but it's mostly that you can't lose your ward guarantee. Or rather it takes a tremendous amount of damage. IE a 6x of Gore Gruntas can right properly remove a 10x HGB stack. Previously as an opponent you just removed the heroes first. So IJ you fly over and charge behind or most shooting armies could do it. NOW - ****** you. Try to chew through 7 wounds on my RF with a 3+ protector and a 4+ ward. Though we didn't play test it, LRL 30x stack Sentinels with Lambent Light could do it. So there ways to snipe him out, just not easy ones.

Grimwrath might be a waste. Give the artifact to a Runeson and get nearly the same result (so long as Runeson is on a monster).

Anything stupid enough to fight your RF + HGB stack is in for a surprise. On the Awaken Steel turn with Lord of Lodge up, a RF with Axe of Grimnir is going to do 9-10 wounds himself. Then the HGB go right after do no joke, 43 damage against a 4+. Even if they stack their saves to a 2+, you are going to output near 30 wounds. Against SOB he move his general on the middle OBJ to which would have given him control but he straight got deaded. 40 wounds was nothing. The mistake was charging me, when he should have just inched onto the OBJ edge via a run.

On the subject of scoring VPs:

Grand Strategies - Guarded Lineage is nearly as good as Hold the Line. BUT, hold the line is still better as far as #3 is concerned. Defend the Lodge is not good. One teleporty or flying fast move unit and you're toast. It's not good. Oath-Takers and Skull-Breakers is so ridiculous it should be renamed "Shoot for the Moon" and at a minimum always be worth 7 VPs no matter the Battlepack (see Battle Tactics). Masters of the Forge is also a big NO.

Battle Tactics - None of them have any bonus for using Monsters and therefore are by default not competitive. All this Lofnir love by GW marketing and nothing here... boo GW. Settle the Grudge - Generally as good as Broken Ranks, Slay Warlord, or Bring it Down. But unlike all 3 of those, no bonus. Beastslayer - again a conditional tactic but I get no bonus. Stupid. Grimnir Knows no Mercy - Risky, but okay if you have 1 VGB and really think you'll easily survive. An Honourable Death - IE Grimwrath. Probably easy to get, but again it's 2 VPs. Your opponent, knowing your BT can just straight decide NOT to attack you. Seize by Force - only viable one, but again 2 VPs, meh. Ignominious Death - OMG this trash tactic tells me GW's writers are on crack.

The Grand Strategies and Battle Tactics we tried a little bit but quickly realized they are terrible. So either this is an indication that GHB2022 is coming and the new ones in there are going to be crazy difficult with NO monster bonuses meaning these crazy Tactics are good or GW just wasted an entire two pages on nonsense non-usable "beyond not competitive" ******. I need to see IDK book better, because GHB22 makes more sense then GW even bothering to write these.

TL;DR

• Lofnir dreams may need a better baseline then ours.
• VGB dreams not up to par so far. Will try Vostarg soon.
• Battlesmith is so far 150 pts to make it your opponents first target.
• Gotrek buff is neat, but still has the easy problem of avoiding combat.
• HGB is still strongest units on board. 3x Spam still likely best lists.
• Greyfyrd looks like the winner lodge.

I don't understand your harsh criticism of the Vulkites build. 

First you keep acting like the 1" reach on a 32mm base means it's impossible to attack with them. This is just rarely a huge issue. 2-3 at worst can't get attacks in unless you're really stuck because of terrain or you're attacking a hero on a small base. You're almost always still getting 7 models with 3 attacks each that hit and wound on a +2 on a charge and that's without any buffs from any heros or runes. No CP needed either. Even without rend attacking a +4 save unit you're looking at an average of 7 wounds. Pushing 10 if you have the rend or MW rune active.

Second you keep talking about the Battlesmith/Flamekeeper getting magicked or shot off the board. If your opponent has good shooting or spells they're always going to try to take out your good heroes. Does that mess up the possibility of buffing the Vulkites with a Flamekeeper or rallying them back with a Battlesmith? Sure! But how much shooting did the opponent just throw out to kill a couple of heroes? Odds are, they won't split thier attacks and will overkill the heroes, which isn't an efficient way to spend your shooting. And now you have unharmed units or Vulkites charging you, which, as I just mentioned can still hit very hard even without any hero buffs! 

Moreover, you only need to spend 1190-1360 points to bring 70-80 Vulkites, leaving you plenty of room to take several Flamekeepers and multiple battlesmiths. Can they still be shot off the board? Sure! But there's more of them to shoots and more opportunities to get the buffs. 

Again, I'll add the disclaimer that I don't think this is some OP tournament crushing list, but I do think it can be fun and still pretty good.

[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

44 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The foot heroes are so small you can hide them behind magmadroths

Nulsidian Icon still exists

If theyre shooting your flamekeeper/battlesmith then theyre not shooting your other units. Seems like a good thing 

This is what I like about the Vulkites list. 

Other than the Rally back, their main bonuses don't come from heroes at all. You don't even have to spend a command point. 3 attacks, +2 to hit/wound, attack on death is coming at you. You wanna spend your shooting/spells killing my Flamekeeper/Battlesmith? Be my guest. 

[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

36 minutes ago, KnowAnyThryng said:

I could see a 70 vulkite axe list backed up by several flamekeepers being worth testing out.

First, thanks for taking the time to calculate all of this. Really appreciated. 

Second, This Vulkite+Flamekeeper+Battlesmith heavy list is something I am really interested in seeing. 

Vulkites getting 3 attacks each (4 if you use a Runefather's Leader ability), +2 to hit/wound on a charge, fighting again when they die with that improved profile, powering a Flamekeeper, then half of whatever's left getting brought back by the Battlesmith? Combine that with either the -1 Rend or MWs on 6s from the Runes and it's a nasty combo. 

Obviously there's lots of things that have to go right to pull that combo off, but if you're brining 80 of them you'll probably have plenty of opportunities to do it. 

[AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

Yes i have tougth about getting a frost fenix as ally and so we get back the old -1 wound,but is hard when every unit is so expensive get that extra 300 points.

I know i have been very negative( and i think this book have been nerfed from old in competitive yet).but i find fun and pretty good but expensive getting two blocks of 15 hearthguard each with one runefather or son with enhacements getting some extra damage with each unit but is hard get that charge everytime with both father and hesrthguards at the same time.

It is as 1200 points only in these two blocks and we need one battlelime more,but also with two fathers is less likely to have both died before can activate the +1 attack.

I guess some vulkite to keep in one objetive doing nothing and maybe one smitter and\or a runemaster to buff the other block and we only have as 400 extra points.

I know this is an incredibly unpopular opinion, but I actually think the points increase for Hearthguard is almost fair given the new Royal Retinue ability. 

The whole strategy with HGB was always having a nearby hero to give them the 4+ ward. This issue before was none of our foot Heroes were all that great. None with great saves, none with a ton of wounds. So you were probably taking AHG to act as their bodyguards to help make them more survivable and keep them from getting shot off the board. 

Obviously the HGB combo with a Hermdar general and a Battlesmith getting Warrior Indominate and +1 save made big blocks of HGB insanely hard to kill. But you still ran into issues if your Heroes got sniped. Obviously that's an issue for tons of armies, but the way to defeat HGB was obvious. Snipe the heroes. So you were kinda forced to bring Aurics as protection, even if they didn't fit into your strategy, and even pre-nerf they weren't great. 

Now with the Royal Retinue ability you give HGB the ability to be the bodyguards. The Runefather or Runeson still gets to make a save roll, then on the damage that does get through, you transfer it to the HGB on a 3+ which is better than the old ability, and now HGB get to make their ward saves. This makes taking AHG as bodyguards redundant, so you don't need em. It's way harder to snipe the dedicated hero for the HGB, and since it's a melee hero anyway you want them to be charging into battle with the HGB and dishing out crazy damage.

Battlesmith lost the +1 to save, but gained the +4 rally ability which is extremely powerful. The additional save was obviously super useful, but the +4 ward always did more work, especially with how many armies can dish out mortals these days. Losing Warrior Indominate hurts, but the new Runefather ability to give a big block of HGB an additional attack makes them hit WAY harder. Especially if you combo it with a good melee rune, which of course you will. 

I think taking Greyfyrd for the extra wounds on foot heroes and extra artifacts can combo extremely well for HGB blocks. I'm not even convinced spamming Greyfyrd HGB is an unplayable list. A Runeson with the Axe of Grimnir is doing massive damage now, and only costs 80 points. Obviously not all of them can have that artifact, but the artifacts are really good now, and you're not trapped into taking a specific one (lets face it Tyrant Slayer wasn't any good). The extra wound goes a long way towards keeping our heroes on the board to buff our troops. 

Here's how I see Fyreslayers now: 

- Not as tanky as before, but a far cry from a squishy horde army. Still very tough, and much easy to bring back, which is something the army never had before.

- Lots of combos to make them hit much harder than before. 

- More viable list building options. (Lofnir, Greyfyrd, Vostarg all seem very playable)

- Require more strategic play than pressing the HGB easy button. 

Look, I'm not fooling myself here. I don't expect Fyreslayers to be dominating tournaments. But I also think the naysayers are all focusing on the good stuff we lost and not looking at the new possibilities. This new tome is adding a lot more options to this army that used to have basically one really good unit and basically nothing else. I'm not sure any of the new combos will be as strong as HGB spam used to be, but I don't think it's a realistic view to say this army was just nerfed into oblivion either. I think competitive lists will absolutely emerge as we all have time to try out different things.