Underworld40k
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Posts posted by Underworld40k
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8 hours ago, KrispyXIV said:
That's more or less what the consensus in my local club is. The first line makes the rest meaningless, since any case that would result in the allocation of more than 3 wounds would violate the first line (which is, as of currently, clearly rules text and not itself fluff).
And if 12 wounds to Moraithi-Khaine kills her, in competitive play she's DOA due to the ability of a lot of scary armies being able to drop 12-15 mortals on her reliably via Longstrikes, Sentinels, dragon breath etc. Essentially, its unlikely you can dodge some matchup that just auto-kills her and reduces your army by a third (and takes core interactions with it).
Essentially, it needs FAQ'd and if Morathi-Khaine is intended to be a weak point, her cost needs to be dialed back to account for it.
Fully agree on all of the above. I think a lot of people are getting overly excited by the, admittedly wired, unneeded and silly, change in the later wording of the rule. Front and centre is any wounds allocated to morathi are then allocated to the Shadow Queen and cant be negated. First thing these says Shadow Queen can only be allocated 3 per turn. They are not negated - it just cant have more than 3 (which i fully understand negates them from a language semantics point of view).
Likewise if this is actually intended she is going on a lot of shelves immediately. -
5 hours ago, Rebluff said:
So wait....witch aelves only get +1 to wound from TOTEMS now? Wow...they really worked hard to make sure we'd be doing Morathi 15 snakes for another edition. There's basically no redeeming features for SoS or WE compared to Blood Stalkers or upgraded Blood Sisters.
Also, I'm reading goonhammer's review and it seems like the guy didn't even look at the last battletome? Like, bloodrites haven't let BloodStalkers reroll ones for a LONG time.
Will see, the battle tactics seem to heavily incentivise witch elves and sisters. I can see them having legs in Draich ganeth where you can be looking at rend 2 elves (3 with mind razor) and Zealous orator will love rallying 30 lady blobs - with shields and a cauldron they are getting +1 save and +1 wound. Not saying they will usurp bows or choppy snakes but it seems early to call them DOA.
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1 hour ago, Rebluff said:
sweet!
Looking through the book...why do they want us to be so bad into shooting armies? Our only protection in our opponent's shooting phase is the Cauldron aura. Are events running a lot more line of sight block terrain now? Are they gearing up to add Obscuring?
Lots of reference to overgrown as a scenery trait (leaked allarielle has it) which used to be blocks LOS in 2nd ed so i guess its coming in some form. Hopefully they will just recycle symbols or it will be a separate effect as i dont want to have to carry another set of tokens/Dice for another scenery table!
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As Malakree says above each Warchanter you take can use Violent Fury and in Da' Choppas each one can target 1-3 ard boyz/brutes.
Its a very stong ability but Da Choppas dont see overwhelming play as Gruntas and Mawkrushas are often considered a better pick for VF targets and Bloodtooths and Ironsunz are seemingly preferred for army composition. Also warchanters are rather squishy at 6w and 4+ with no ward so they can be sniped easily enough in a lot of cases.
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In theory Godrakk has decent mortal wound output and a slightly more flexible command ability. In reality the command ability is pointless outside of big waaagh and his mortal wound output is hot trash as the things it might kill reliably are going to be turned into paste by the mawkrusha anyway.
I struggle to find a niche use for him in any list where i don't just think a regular cheaper krusha is a better option.I like the idea of the new VP system but its gone about it a bit backwards - the weak armies aren't likely to kill the big/good things to start with and i dont think they are losing by 1-2 vps. That said it is an innovation and i think they should be applauded for trying something new. We all know that points are a great balancing tool but we also know that for people to really take/ stop taking particular units they have to get pointed to the extreme whether that is up or down (definitely true for the units that are considered very strong)
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19 hours ago, KrispyXIV said:
We can hope on the Doomfires - I've been trying to run them recently (as I like some models I printed as alternates for them), and have found them to be just slightly... off for their cost. I feel like they're one "thing" away from being a solid choice - let them be battleline, make them cheaper, or remove their limitation that prevents them from casting from our spell lore and I think they're a solid and useful unit.
Luckily, they're in the "duel" box and if the slayers/IDK box is an indication, that means a significant scroll update.
I have similar hopes for the Khinerai - they're not a bad or non-useful unit, but they're MOSTLY useful just for being able to deep strike and exist on top of an objective. Their 6+ save and 1W each means they die to even a "swift adjacent" breeze, and I'd love to see them improved so that more than a minimum unit to cap objectives would be useful. Heartrenders in particular probably need a bit more - where Lifetakers have enough offense that our buffs can at least make them an interesting cruise Missile, the Heartrenders simply don't DO anything with their attacks. A second shot would go a long way. A second wound and an extra attack with a modest cost increase (and maybe battle line? I want so bad to do a harpy army...) would be amazing imo...
Personally i think doomfire warlocks just don't do enough of 1 thing well. They are to expensive to be cheap cappers/screens, they dont have enough offensive output to really play the harassing role and the magic i unreliable and limited, especially given that it wants you to run them in blocks of 10 to maximise MW output.
Its interesting because i have always found the Heartpiercers to be the more reliable option - they can drop down and actually chuck spears and then maybe even move after doing so. Life takers are on 40m bases and just never have the attacks or numbers i want to have (and if they deep strike you are looking for that 9" charge of course...) a 3/4/-/1 profile needs witchbrew and mindrazor to really make me think it would achieve anything given that there are only 2 attacks per model.
Mayne the new subfaction rules will open up list building though given how its been done for Warclans and stormcast- Khelt Narr getting Khinari as battleline would be cool.
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Not to start with the sky is falling that sometimes happens with new books but i am a little flummoxed with the new battle tome announcement as this 1 is barley a year old. Cant imagine what they are going to change to justify it in terms of rules/abilties and it has killed my (largely already low) painting drive (i am not keen on paiting a load of WE/SoS/Khinari, especially the khinari, if they turn out to be lame ducks in the new book). It feels like its either going to be very minor beyond the 3rd edition trappings (path to glory/battle tactic/battalions/subfactions) or going to be a substantial rework. I am optimistic we will get a good rework and remain strong like ironjawz (hopefully not getting the bonespliterz business)
Genuinely hope Morathi gets a command ability change so its not bonkers and then Blood sisters can be priced back down to something not so high and be taken as the excellent skirmishing unit and objective cappers i have always felt they are without being a 15 strong block of shooting death in an obstinately melee army.
Would like to see Khinari get a getter role than being just cheapish throw away deep strikes/cappers and the WE/SoS to be given more distinct roles with a bit more individual oomph, maybe our new hero will help with this.
Dont feel we need a change to the Blood sisters. Expecting a reduction in our spells and prayers but maybe the SQ can find a decent blade of khaine and get get dance of doom on the cauldron for her own weapons?
Maybe doomfire warlocks will be useful? Owning 10 i have always found that i would rather have khinari or more recently the shadow stalkers, for objective capping/deep strike threats and any thing else if wanted chopping ability.
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13 hours ago, Ravinsild said:
I'm trying to get games going in my club to test 2 lists, which are essentially the same list, just one is a 2 drop list and one is a 4 drop list. It's the exact same units.
The idea I am testing is Waaagh! Leader versus Megabossy for mobility in 2 different ways (more reliable charge or more Mighty Destroyers). I am also testing 1 Artifact (Arcane Tome on Warchanter with Teleport) and a Weirdknob with Bash 'Em Ladz (the 2 drop list) or a 2 Artifact list that's 4 drops with a Command Detachment and Battle Regiment, and the other Artifact being Armor of Gork on Maw-Krusha for survivability and not needing to use Killa Beat on my MBMK target.
However it must be noted that to the best of my knowledge, in my club at least, nobody is playing meta tournament lists. We have Sylvaneth, a lot of Stormcast but I don't think they are running the tournament list, other Orruk players, Death players, Ogors, Gloomspite Gitz and a lot of chaos such as Nurgle Maggotkin, Hosts of Slaanesh, Blades of Khorne (at least 2 players) and Skaven. I don't know anyone who plays Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth Realmlords, Idoneth Deepkin, or anything like that. I think our Sylvaneth player also rocks Cities of Sigmar but idk what kind. Nobody has a Kragnos.
With the people I'm playing with and the fact I don't go to tournaments I'm not sure I need to run the 2 drop list but hopefully I can start testing my list and find out what works for me and what doesn't.
I value Hand of Gork purely to get my Brutes where they need to go since they are slow, but offensively pretty powerful. I don't care about my ArdBoyz at all, they will probably almost never receive Mighty Destroyers. In my mind they're a screen to protect my pigs and brutes from charges as well as my heroes and then to split off and baby sit back field objectives and try to keep a Warchanter nearby for Rally to help them recover from spells or shooting and stay on a backfield objective.
The offense of my army will be the 9 gore-gruntas and 10 brutes but I know the Brutes more than likely cannot get a turn 1 charge w/o hand of Gork, calling Waaagh! and running Mighty Waaagh! Leader for a +1 re-rollable charge. Even then they may not be very likely to get stuck in. I'm trying to figure out how to reliably use my Brutes due to their lack of speed in comparison to my GGs and MBMK. Another concern is my Warchanters and Weirdknobs being able to keep up in order to project their buffs and abilities within range.
Honestly I struggled with the old book in AOS 2.0 and I wonder if I am going to struggle with this book too. I don't think I am very good at Ironjawz.
Just came back from a small (18 player) local tournament with a 4-1 and ran something that probably looks similar
Bloodtoofs sub alligence
1x MBoMK - Destroyer & Mighty Waaagh
3x Warchanters
1x Shaman - Hand of gork
3x 5 Ard Boyz
10 Brutes w/ hakkas
3x 3 Gruntas
Ran in 2 battle regiments. Handled really well and has a lot of bodies and wounds.
Brutes did sterling work largely in the back field (screened by 1 of the ard boyz) as a deterrent to anything that wanted to come at me early game and then as a significant 2nd wave threat as the game went on. Gruntas and MBoMK put pressure on early game as needed and shaman hand emergency hand of gork option for either reactions brutes or a warchanter but this was taken largely with the belief the spell would never actually succeed.
The amount of rend 2 meant that i never felt the waaagh was the must have tipping point (although it has huge value). That said i didnt play against morathi bow snakes or lumineth although the loss did come form the new flying circus that is stormcasts on dragons.
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1 hour ago, Zorki said:
If we listen, for the 3/4 of people here, Guttripaz suck... Maybe these guys have to check the actual tournament KB's list report like Quebec, Australia & Belgium. Check out the Corey Papinnieni interview from Plastic Craic (One of the best Australia player) : 2 × 20 Guttripaz all the time from him.
When we check the Quebec KB list : Always 2 x10 Guttripaz / 1x20 or 2x20. Screen they use Shootas instead of Hobgrot.
2 competitive list work really well at high level : 2 Sludgeraker/ 2 shaman etc… or 1 Sludgeraker/ 2 shaman / 1 Mirebrute etc..
So the players who trash talk or calculate the value of Gutrippaz have to worry about what is playing/Meta + %win by faction/subfaction (LRL/KB are very similar in % victory) + victory scenery.
=> Play and mastery your own style /list will work better than what is the "best list" but spamming Boltboyz is a trap (2x6 or 1x9 max).
It is interesting to me that Gutrippaz are so swingy in so many peoples evaluation. For me half the problem for me is the knee ****** reaction that the warscroll is very underwhelming and the points are very high for it. 9 points a wound is fairly average but when you have to cough up 180 points in 1 chunk seems steep especially when ard boyz cost 170 for the same number of wounds. But VEW is actually so strong and the in faction combos really up them to pretty strong. I wouldn't mind seeing a 5/10 point drop on them to encourage them, especially in the bigger blocks though.
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On 9/25/2021 at 8:31 PM, Yargar said:
I finally got my books in this weekend, and I have a question about the command traits. What would be the point of Voice of Da Great Green God? It increases the range of the generals command range. I don't see why this would be good since your leaders in your units can issue commands now. Unless I'm completely over looking something.
Some units don't have champions to issue orders, or some abilities may allow your opponent to snipe a champion out of the unit. Limited admittedly. There may also be scenarios or other things that give a character a command ability that then could be projected further.
Edit. Also worth mentioning that with things like the heroic actio that can grant a CP, the gained cp is locked to that character, so if you want to use it to do something like at the double without dipping into your generic everyone can use command points the extra range could be helpful.
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13 hours ago, Horizons said:
A little dissapointed in Gobbsprak, I think he's good and costed fairly. He's billed as great anti-magic but with no bonuses to cast/unbind I don't know how effective he'll be. (I may be biased magic armies I face are Hallowheart and Kroak).
I think i know what you mean but overall i am pretty happy with him.
300 points for 2 cast unbind on a mobile platform that can do a bit of combat work is pretty solid and he has some decent threat with the unbind against other regular casters and a lot of flexibility with knowing the whole spell lore. Sadly we are just not going to complete against the big magic powerhouses but i always feel that will matter more in tourney games then regular ones.
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41 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:
So.. what you guys are saying, is that a unit that is in the Kruleboyz section of the Warclans book, that has JUST been introduced with this new faction, with the same aesthetic (greenskins riding it), with the same branding and all on the warscroll, cannot be played in the Kruleboyz faction? Am I getting this right here?
Some are pointing out RAW this is indeed the case but is likely an error. Some are saying its a deliberate decision and is playable only in Big Waaagh by design.
Picture below Taken from the AOS Facebook post today - it has Kruelboyz drums - so even if it doesn't have Orruck keyword i am reasonably confident in my belief it will be getting the faq treatment. Of course this carries as much weight as a load of hot air (because WARCOM have never made a mistake in their comments) and now that said I am now tempting the fates and will happily eat humble pie if this is clarified as being very much a deliberate design decision.
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27 minutes ago, glytch said:
The same mistake is on the app. So i do not think this is a mistake.
He can be played in Gloom's ally i guess.Respectfully i have to disagree and say that this is clearly a mistake. The app is in beta and by a a lot of accounts as buggy as anything so i wouldn't lean to hard on that. I would be amazed if it doesn't get the keyword in the first FAQ in a month or so.
That said in a game setting RAW it is only eligable for Big Waaagh!
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Obviously no real games played out yet but what's the general forming consensus on Blotboyz v Killbows in terms of numbers to take?
My meta usually involves games against Skaven, Soulblight Gravelords, Slaves to Darkness, Ogers (but footslogging), Sylvaneth and soon to be storm cast. (So pretty varied!) For refrence im not a tournament player but play a lot of the vague 'friendly competitive' games.
The Killbow obviously loses value the less high wound targets you come up against but with the glow up to monsters this edition there are usually a couple of high value targets floating around in every list.
My gut feeling is 3 probably has immense diminishing returns over the course of most games but 1 may prove to 130 points of not contributing to this game. Is 2 the sweet spot or is 1 backed by 2x6 boltboyz what a lot of people are considering?
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37 minutes ago, Malakree said:
Annihilators
True enough - but i am suggesting a possible general trend for 3.0 which seems a little early to call given we dont even have the the first 2 books.
Stormcast may well be the tough armour save book with a 3+ general and 2+ annihilators , but if other books with 3+ save monsters go to 4+ then it would still be a general swing. Of course there is always the big risk of an early design philosophy being hard pivoted in 6 months and we are stuck at the bottom of the pile as a new trend kicks in and everyone else keeps 3+ monsters and such.
I am personally just trying to avoid feeling like we have gotten the shaft before the new edition is in full swing.
Just a pity that GW dont do better edition transitions in most cases, a new set of grand alliance books that updates everything for 3rd would have been preferable for me.
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Cant say i am thrilled with the 4+ MBoMK but this is still early days in 3.0 and might be the general trend for a lot of the factions as they get updated. Command traits or artefacts might be the answer i.e. ironclad changes save to 3+ rather than giving +1 to roll it currently does so mitigates 2 MBoMK running around being tanks (much like they reduced fist damage to 2 but let 1 have mean un' mount trait).
The -2 rend on the regular brute 2" weapons feels obscene and either a misprint or due for a week 1 nerf. Which makes me sad because either they will go back in the box or I will have to find all the old sprues to rip off the dual wield weapons...
Gordrakk is probably still going to be bad because the design for him has always been universally poor. Artefacts/command traits will almost always let the regular boss out preform/survive him while being cheaper and his command traits have never been super amazing for the tier of model he is. Smasha and Kunnin need a significant rework imo and they need to find a place for him narratively and gaming wise.
But like is said, early edition changes will hurt but as long a the other battle tomes arrive without the significant delays and follow the same design choices they will be fine in the long run.
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6 hours ago, Lucentia said:
Also less relevant but still kind of interesting is the lack of consistency in explaining how to roll for prayers, both DoK priest warscrolls and the DoK allegiance prayers mention a 3+ roll is required, but there's no mention of a dice roll at all for the Har Kuron prayer or awakening an avatar. My take away is they really should standardise priests and prayers as they have with wizards and spells.
a 1000 times this. Why they ever decided to word it differently to spellcasters is a mystery to me.
Something like, "This unit may attempt to pray x times in your hero phase. It knows the following prayers" then the faction section on prayers can outline which if any additional prayers a unit may know, just like they do with spells.
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6 minutes ago, Lileath said:
personally I just sent an email to the FAQ to clarify all that and I encourage you to do the same, since what I find strange and even too strong is the khainite pendant when we can pray 3 times, why 3 and not just 2 if we are limited to a single prayer ?
Chosen prayer, warscroll prayer, avatar prayer (list dependant)
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25 minutes ago, jhamslam said:
No it means theyll have to choose between the Runes / Awakening avatar of khaine, then they get to do the Book Prayer
Actually I think its just the one. The old battletome worded the rule to allow the faction prayer to be rolled for alongside the warscroll prayer. Not so now.
44 minutes ago, Gokken said:If I got the prayer thing right now you have to choose between
Getting rune of khaine off and gaining 1d3 damage, using one of the 6 army prayers, using witchbrew, or awakening avatars?
is this correct? I fail to see how you can use cauldrens offensively now, outside of hagnar and maybe Draiche ganeth.
Also removing the 5+ from Hagnar was harsh, any horde killer spell and most units will kill you in seconds now. considering how normal 5+ does mortal wounds is now.
It was a fun month to play though with my daughters....
Its not that bad though - with brew is a war scroll ability and not a prayer so isn't effected. Avatar wakes up round 3 anyway and imo is the real mvp for damage from the cauldron, d3 blade of khiane is cute but not exactly setting the world aflame. Having to chose between the prayers is a little more irritating but i suspect people are running more than 1 hag/queen and you can always run the khainite pendant if you need 1 super buffbot.
1 hour ago, Boar said:That's how it was literally in book tough IIRC. And "massively"? MW aren't that common compared to normal damage.
Mortal wounds are pretty common in some play groups and plenty of effects can bring them en mass. Losing 50% of mortal wound protection is going to hurt a lot of Hag Narr players who took the temple for the explicit durability boost is going to hurt.
It is more that i don't think anyone ever interpreted it that way - the old battletome was always used as if it gave a 5+ shrug v mortal and that was never questioned or addressed in an errata so I suspect most players will have been expecting it to simply say yes (See Morathi going to rend 1 as something everyone raised an eyebrow about and they have changed back).
It seems odd that they want to make the distinction as it is not something that a lot of new players will likely pick up on as it changes only 1 part of a mechanic that covers 2 things, slows the game down further and just raises issues ala the Ard Boyz shield debate from back in the day.
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Some other interesting changes though - cauldrons fixed in terms of weapons/mounts as anticipated. Hag Narr nerfed massively with devoted disciples (did not see that coming!), can only pray once per hag/queen whcih gives the relics section a bit of a rethink and Khailebron teleport wording fixed.
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How are people finding Scathcoven to work in their lists? I have found it usually a solid pick in other temples but with the bravery boost I have been considering it less in Zaintahr Kai - drop count doesn't usually get low enough to reliably get 1st turn choice and MSU Stalkers at bravery 9 care very little and the bigger blobs of sisters either kill the target and take minimal casualties or on the reverse get turned into a paste so battle shock is not an issue to start with.
That said i don't tend to play against to many shooting heavy opponents in my area so that is a big factor.
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I can confirm The Daughters of Khaine information isn't working correctly - I sent a support email and this was confirmed as being passed on to be work on.
There has also been a long standing issue with the Big Waagh list building not registering battle line correctly. I like Azyr but bugs remain a feature of it...
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Good afternoon all - long time reader 1st time poster.
Just seeking some input on my DoK as to what to build. I have a large collection (which I am increasingly moving out of the grey plastic pile of shame) but have hit a dilemma in building my 3rd shrine option.
I currently have 1 bloodwrack shrine and 1 hag queen on CoB built and a 3rd partially assembled which I had ear marked for a slaughter queen on CoB.
However after some draft games and a lot of list building I am finding myself skipping over the SQ on CoB in most lists - the command ability is excellent but no Witchbrew and an extra 50 points for 3 extra attacks and an un-boosted unbind seems....disappointing? If it had dance of doom I would be all for it but alas. I have however been looking at doubling up on HQ on COB or BWS.
What are peoples experience and thoughts on them to date? The BWS seems like to much of a bargain not to consider having doubles of and witchbrew going to a roll means that i would seriously consider running to HQ on COB.
Am i just not getting the most out of the unit or are they feeling more redundant to people now?
AoS 3 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion
in Daughters of Khaine
Posted
As one of the people who will have 90 witch elves and 40 something sisters of slaughter what's the general consensus on bucklers v 2x blades on witch elves? The bucklers keeping (for the moment) the 6+ mortal makes them very tempting given the change of save to a 5+ which with bloodshield and all out defence can keep them at a respectable 4+ v rend 1 so seem the obvious pick for bigger units of the ladies but the extra attack seems like it will really benefit the rend from gladiatrix and the sub faction pick.
Is it leaning to smaller units with 2x daggers and big units with shields or is one just objectively better than the other?