[General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion]

Whenever I see "treat as having charged" or "count as having charged" I assume you treat/count those models as if having made a charge. "Count as slain" is just a way to say the model is removed from play ("place the slain model to the side - it is removed from play" - Slain models). The model isn't actually slain but it counts as being so for the purposes of removing it from play. Same with other rules like it, you haven't actually charged but you count as having done so for rules purposes. Which means you are eligible for all the interactions associated with a unit who has charged.

[Broken Realms: Teclis - SPOILER Discussion + Lore Summary]

If there is one thing we can count on with Nagash and his boney bois is that they'll be back. 

In WHFB we also saw Vampires take up the mantle as preparing and serving Nagash before his inevitable return.

It is going to be interesting to see what happens between the aelves and Slaanesh moving forward.

[Slaaneshi worldview and concepts]

20 hours ago, Sorrow said:

I will use of of my very first posts on this forum, for this topic is very interesting.

I have been in WHFB/40K for almost 18 years. Chaos player first and foremost. Managed to gather pretty much every Chaos lore book out there.  It is very clear that Slaanesh has never been GW favorite god, so to speak. Nurgle and Tzeentch have a coherent philosophy and I would even use word theology for them. Khorne is relatively straightforward. Of all Chaos gods, Slaanesh is the only one of infinite possibilities, which is quite paradoxical given how Slaanesh has been treated in WHFB/40K/AOS.  That is to say, Slaanesh has been the neglected one since day one. Over the years, I read and saw explorations of Slaanesh by various fans and while most were below average, some were excellent. That is the thing with Slaanesh, a good dosage of creativity is required to truly make Slaanesh shine.

I did not pull that perfume/fragrance idea out of nothing. Years ago, I read a blog where one woman was writing a incredible lore for existing but also completely new daemons and mortals, with accompanying artwork for each hero, unit and monster. In her own words, she took a concept, in this case, the olfactory sense, and explored it in context of Slaanesh. I curse myself for not saving her lore and art, for she deleted he r blog and I was never able to find it again.

But to give a example that all of you can read right now.  A Slaaneshi Kurnoth: http://hgpowell.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-woods-of-bloody-thorns-slaaneshs.html

Slaanesh is a deity of everything, for everything can be taken to excess. 

A good reminder that you can create whatever you want to. There is no uniform shape an army must have (least of all Chaos). 

Another thought on the pious and faithful. How about a sect based on circles or rings? The outward visible ring is the honey to draw people in, populated by genuinely passionate people who are day by day getting corrupted and pulled into the next rung, on and on it goes (mimicking Slaanesh fortress) till you eventually get to a point of outright violence and bloodshed. Each ring keeps the illusion alive with the public figurehead being little more than a puppet being manipulated through praise and adoration. Fresh lambs to the slaughter or hedonites to the battlefield. 

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

Not my list, just one I heard about. It went 2/0/1 in a tournament (not sure on the wins, but the one loss was to Archaon Tzeentch.

The formoid crusher is interesting, but the focus is definitely on low drops and the seeker cavalcade. Certainly would be interesting to try

Insanely fast, maxing out the battalion, Keeper hitting on 2+ (fane + cameo), Crusher as a disruption piece for castling up (all those MWs = DPs). Kind of like a Hedonite version of the IDK eel list. Cheers for sharing.

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

10 minutes ago, Feii said:

Vince doesn't include warscrolls in his battletome design chart.  


It kinda baffles me that you start your comment with saying that you  donm't agree with LRL being more complicated to play then you TLDR it with "I like this army more" your taste is a subjective thing and more power to you if you enjoy playing something and dedicate yourself to mastering an army but at the same time it is not an argument for which army is more complicated to play.  Playing an easier to play army isn't a bad thing ffs, I don't understand why people keep taking it personally and try to be tough guys "My army is super hard to play tooo!!!" ffs 

That was in no way the core of my argument. It was an example of what could be great design and then I gave several examples of how the book create synergies and is tied together. The point is you do not need to have a series of special rules to create a deep army.

That's how sharing opinions work. You said your piece and I didn't agree with it (and you're posting this on a Hedonite forum so you should expect a reaction). To me, LRL does not seem like the hardest army to master or that HoS has a low learning curve. It has very little with being a tough guy and more to do with what's actually going on in the game. We can already tell that it isn't a straightforwards army and that simply going all in on DPs while avoiding removing units is a bad idea (but not always). + more besides (previous posts).

My point on personal preference was more towards if you see something in an army others do not, you run with it and don't look back. I still enjoy discussions about it and I assure you, it is all good. It would be hecking boring if it it all fit neatly into a pre-arranged box.

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

1 hour ago, Feii said:

Also I would like to say that Slaaneshi book being very simple means the learning curve is low. When it comes to LRL it is possible the hardest book to learn in the game rn but it allows a steep learning curve which translates into good winrates for people who put the reps in. 

Completely disagree. LRL is for the most part fairly straightforwards and self-sufficient. Command/magic is about buffing units and there's very little interactions between characters and auras. Teclis adds easy and reliable magic and then shooting/MWs does the rest. In a tough spot, pop an aetherquartz. MWG do well with LRL so it can't be that tough. You can create more complex lists but most people won't. Those who chase the meta rarely wants something complex, after all. Since complex and/or swingy tactics doesn't win consistently and make a poor/unexpected match-up more likely. Striving for reliable lists in a dice game in order to get 3-5 wins in a row versus a wide range of opponents creates a player who think and play different than most of us. Indeed, for the vast majority of players the local meta will dictate choice and army over the wider tournament meta.

Which is why I disagree with Vince on what he defines as good design. Not all army books have to be obvious what they want you to do. I would even argue that if you are able to tell the story of a unit without bloating the warscroll with tons of additional rules then that is great design. Currently I think we have enough, for example, the Twinsouls. A fairly simple warscroll but using them successfully will hinge on your ability to maximise their alternating abilities. Glutos is another unit which plays into the sequence of game to max out potential. Then there are plenty of debuffs and tricks you can pull to further make you army either tougher or even faster. Finally there's summoning which is the 1st trap I think most new players will fall into, namely, to farm DPs for the sake of DPs and at the expense of their battle plan. 

The theme is controlling the tempo through speed or abilities (-1s, locus, summoning, Glutos, Sigvald) over the course of the game. Most people who's actually went in and tested the army have come to a similar conclusion that it always feels like we lose out on one or two units or that battalion being just outside of our reach. That can be easily solved by shaving some points off our units. I really cannot see how people reach the conclusion that the entire battletome is a poorly designed mess and require a total rewrite. 

TL;DR: We all end up preferring different armies and like with most things in life we will find a way to decide for X and Y reasons that the army we prefer right now is either 1) the most awesome 2) super tactical 3) etc etc. I am probably wrong in the eyes of another who consider LRL to friggin' perfect and HoS a piece of trash. I still won't switch over to LRL. I think there's lots of interesting synergies and variants to figure out for HoS. If you don't, then you shouldn't. You should play with the army you enjoy, no matter what I or anyone else say.

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

1 hour ago, AngryPanda said:

Now, the good news is that it’s not as an extreme case as Deathwatch. The warscrolls and rules have me excited, and although they do lack some uniqueness/flavor, it isn’t as overarching. Contrary to popular opinion, I believe there is synergy within the army, especially within the sub-allegiances and from heroes. The issue is the point costs, which mostly everyone within the community has agreed are pretty absurd. 
 

Games workshop is stubborn with its decisions, and often refuses to make corrections or admit to being incorrect even when mistakes are clearly made. The recent FAQ should of changed Fiendbloods, which I truly believe are the worst unit in AoS; the lack of change indicates the decision to make them this weak was on purpose. Which is strange, considering the Fiendblood in Dread Pageant has stats that are theoretically what we’re originally planned for the units debut in AoS. 
 

I agree that we wait for the Lumineth, but if the release is superior then ours, then I highly suggest we organize some respectful means of communicating our displeasure with the release. 

Yeah, I also think a points reduction will do us a world of good simply by how more units/bodies contribute to DP and summoning. 

Fiendbloods are just confusing. They don't add anything new to the army, they're inefficient against other units, and could have just been left out to be put in the BoC book whenever that arrives.

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

1 hour ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Well, their f***ing wind-cat-spirit has a base move of 24”, destroys faction terrain on a 2+...I got that far and moved away. 

It is worth considering that a lot of the cool stuff are from leaders, which means if a LRL player wants it all the army will be tiny. Not ideal in a game about scoring objectives. Sevireth the wind dude is 300pts, I think, which is a big investment in utility and harassment (which is something the army isn't lacking in). Same deal with the rest of the army, if you try to do it all you quickly run out of points. Initial impressions can be misleading before we actually see some lists. Looks solid though.

It also be funny to land a Pavane of Slaanesh on him. 24 on a 5+ MWs. Dance, dance, like the wind! 

It is also interesting to ponder what might be in store for us when the Broken Realms relevant to Slaanesh hits. Could it even be something relating the newly awakened shard of Slaanesh? It is very much a part of Morathi's ascension and the on-going story, after all. I doubt it'll be the next one up but it could be a part of its climax and launch us into a 3rd edition. Or one of the two, or neither.

Could the Shard of Slaanesh be our next super-unit? GW do seem to like to release those centrepiece units lately.

[Slaaneshi worldview and concepts]

9 hours ago, PiotrW said:

I admit I like the Drukhari.

One question regarding your idea: wouldn't such Slaaneshi cultists be at odds with some others groups of Hedonites? If they see themselves as agents of righteousness, would they tolerate someone like Glutos? Whose actions cannot really be justified by righteousness of any kind?

Not sure here: are all Hedonites supposed to be tolerate each other (aside from persona rivarlies), or can they have... dogmatic disputes?

And on another note...

One idea I have for my potential Hedonites army is inspired by the vignette in the Slaanesh write-up in the the AoS 2.0 core rulebook. It's this nice bit about a noblewoman observing the invading Slaanesh forces with fascination, seeing them as colourful knights etc. It's something I could run with: the idea of a young princess or queen who lived in some stuffy, uptight and boring kingdom... and when the Hedonites came, she was initially enamoured with their strong emotions, unusual clothes etc. So, she ended up joining them - without really knowing what she was getting herself into: a mad lifestyle of debauchery, extreme sensations, sex, degradation etc.

Fast-forward a decade or so. The former princess / queen is now a Shardspeaker leading her own faction of Hedonites. But she's not fully evil, not in a "bwahaha!" way at least. She's mostly... damaged. And not necessarily truly happy with how all of this turned out to be. But at the same time, she cannot leave, because she doesn't fit with normal people anymore: after being put through the whole pincery meatgrinder of depravity, she doesn't really have much of decency or healthy emotions left. The whole experience really changed her. So, she remains a Hedonite - not because she truly likes it (although, on some level, she *does*), but because she's unable to live differently anymore.

What do you think?

Yeah, I imagine it would. Vainglory and zealotry masquerading as righteousness and purity. Who could abide by such corrupted false prophets, after all? Solid motivation for taking over and converting other hedonites to their cause too.

I like your concept. "Evil" is not always so clear cut. I'm drawing parallells to substance abuse, as in she knows she should quit but the spiral she's on is ever steeper and downwards. Eventually she might fall completely but even then I find characters with a flaw, relatable/tragic story behind them more compelling. Basically if we can empathise we can become invested. Who's to say she can't to a little good here and there, for example.

[Slaaneshi worldview and concepts]

To me Slaanesh stands out among the rest. You could create a person who take "end justifies the means" way too far. That person wants to do good but end up working only to that specific good at the detriment of all others (which creates enemies and competitors). As this behaviour develops you can imagine all kinds of dark deeds "for the greater good."

Slaanesh can also be quite subtle, i.e. have an outward appearance of beauty and adoration for X or Y reason yet is ugly as sin underneath the skin. With your idea of piety, the followers of your Slaaneshi sect could very well view them as glorious angels and righteous avengers made manifest through their purity of heart and belief. Taking it further, this could send them on a crusade where they forcibly bring people in (it is for their own good!) because how could you not see the glorious and righteous message? ONLY THE HERETIC! and so on. Kind of makes me think of the Shadow over Innsmouth and the esoteric order of Dagon (H.P Lovecraft mythos). Like Enoby suggests, a messenger of the gods bringing new fortune. Why else would they be sheltered if not because of our faithful hearts? 

I like to toy around with positive traits and great deeds and then how could this be corrupted into something wicked. Dark Eldar (or Drukhari) is an example of this being turned up to 11 and an interesting approach. How far will you push yourself to get what you desire while silencing the voice of your conscience? How long till it stops talking and you become someone you never could have imagined.

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

1 hour ago, Ragest said:

I've played a pair of TTS matches using Slaneesh while I wait for new Lumineth's book and i think Slaneesh is not a competitive army. Is hard, but is my honest opinion.

But It's one of the most fun casual army in the game. Everything they do is simple, easy to understand, easy to play around and way more strategic than before.

I think a point reduction will make the book S tier? No, far away. But, at least, will make the book shine a little more.

I'm holding out for more data. Two games, for example, is not enough to sway me either way. There are channels which are excited for Hedonites (Tabletop Titans, Meta Slayers, and thete made a good case too). The negative bat reps I've seen has thus far has forgotten key rules or played unoptimised lists. That said, I agree, it isn't S-tier, and thank Slaanesh for that because further we get into that territory we more extreme the power creep gets.

A point reduction could be pretty big though since it will have a cascading effect on DPs and Summoning. If the opponent has to deal with 1-2 more units then whatever you summon in will be that much more impactful. Speaking of summoning, I do not think we've seen or figured out the best way to use it yet. Not just in terms of what to summon (that's the easy bit) but how to optimise plays to get the most of it. Stuff like that is going to take much more than a couple of games.

 

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

46 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

So, I kind of noticed something weird; recently GW has been releasing a number of rules previews for the new Lumineth release coming out, which is completely opposite of what we received. 
 

Back in late January/early February I speculated that one of the reasons why we were not seeing a healthy number of rule teasers for HoS was because GW wasn’t confident in the warscrolls and rules, and didn’t want to deflate hype going into the release (which would potentially decrease sales). 
 

However, we can see the opposite is true of Lumineth, who are getting much more coverage. This could indicate that the design or marketing team is more confident with what’s being released, which if true reflects that they knew the HoS release was going to be bad coming out of the gate. 
 

I sort of expected that the FAQ would not have point adjustments this early, but it should of at least fixed Fiendbloods. Anyways, the whole thing feels really weird and sketchy. 

On the flip side, the rules preview for Hedonites we did get was a larger article with several units have rules shown. I'm thinking for this article (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/02/12/discover-the-new-rules-that-make-the-hedonites-of-slaanesh-even-more-gloriously-despicable/) which previews multiple units at once + Siggie. Surprised they slept on Glutos though, his rules and entire model is awesome. Hedonites did get a good amount of model spotlights too. The Lumineth articles address the Vanari bladelords, the horsie bois, and characters separately. 

I fully concede I might have missed something but the marketing sure worked on me. The Battletome hooked me like a pair exquisite silvery flesh-hooks. 

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

2 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I've been thinking the same.  The issue is I want lots of Seeker Chariots with heralds actually.  for the retreat and charge bumper cards from the battalion and warscroll.  I wish the exalted chariots also had retreat and charge.  

Yeah, weighing the benefit of getting fewer drops versus versatility. I'm also a fan on the Herald spell 'acquiescence' and combining it with the bigger version (aptly named 'overwhelming acquiescence') on the Contorted Epitome to try and get at least one of the spells through. Works with shooting too since the re-rolls of 1 isn't restricted to melee. If both spells go through you're getting 2-4 enemy units to put that effect on.

As it stands I'm not expecting to out-drop many armies anyways unless I decide to commit on the Seeker Cavalcade and Godseekers some day in the future. It is a cool concept, I just want to do more than build chariots!

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

20 hours ago, PiotrW said:

And on a more general note: any interesting backstory ideas for Hedonites you guys came up with?

If it is interesting I'll leave to you but the cliff notes are like this:

Noble named Ashir D'velve (the name I gave my Dark Eldar Archon, now Drukhari, back in 1999 and I just like it) raised with a passion for writing plays/performances and spread it to the lowliest commoner and royalty alike. He wants to be a man of the people and recruit servants and staff from beggars, the homeless, and orphans. He prides himself in raising them up from the gutter, bringing them into his plays and performances. Gradually, his pride, ego, and teetering on the edge of a messiah-complex catches the attention of a certain deity (or daemon) who start to whisper suggestions in his ear. Ashir now starts to move towards more extreme ways to find out new stories, objects, and other tools for inspiration. Slowly but surely he withdraws from the public claiming to be working on his greatest work yet, eventually letting his staff go abruptly. Outwardly this is the last the world know of Ashir, presumed dead,  his estates fell into disrepair. The derelict building became a place of superstition and fear.

The truth is the staff never left the estates. Some also heard the whispers also and serve him still. The rest were fashioned into gruesome costumes for ever more sadistic and extreme performances. His entourage now tour the realms, selling their services to those willing to taste forbidden pleasures and experiences. Anonymity and damnation guaranteed. The only mark of their passing are sickening displays of art made from the bodies who simply were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Preying on the same kind of people once tried to shelter, using the underground and secretive societies to ensnare new souls and victims alike. Trading the public stage for exclusive shows for the twisted and wealthy.

Good intentions twisted by obsession turning into the darkest possible mirror of what he wishes to be. His vanity and pride pushing him further, much to the delight of the dark prince. Mostly a mortal warband for now but as the lore behind this merry group of performers grow, daemonic forces will start to be included in his clientele and eventually as performers themselves. I love to write and expand with the army I make, makes me care more for my plastic figures.

 

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

2 hours ago, Sorrow said:

We will see.

If new Lumineth and Soulblight prove to be far more powerful than us,  then this entire idea of our faction being written for AOS 3 falls into trash.

I truly hope that is not the case, but I suspect new  Lumineth and Soulblight will be far better than we are at the moment.

If objectives gets a bigger focus and non-behemoth characters get harder to target with shooting/magic HoS could come out as a winner. We're fast enough to pick fights and get at important leaders, leaders like the shardspeaker would be easier to place without getting shot up, and summoning is going to be (and already is) great for objective grabbing/holds. If "look out, sir" ends up being like a 2+ shrug over to the next unit it wouldn't just be good for protection but to feed depravity to different units. Combining something like this with the fane means we'd get DPs rolling quick. This could be why we're paying a summoning tax on our units. I also like how the new Locus ability has panned out.

I'm not disagreeing on the general perception that HoS are over-costed as a result of overcompensating from the last book. Either there needs to be a slight points reduction or there's something we don't know about in the upcoming 3rd edition. Maybe both.

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

I haven't watched Vince's rant, so this only applies if the rant was along the lines of "twinsouls suck/are overpointed because they got wiped out by a buffed cow", but if that was the rant then it's not a good one. It's like saying "Morrsarr guard are bad because I used them to screen against 6 fiends and they did no damage and all died" - if a unit has a role and is not good in another area, using them in the area they're not good in will make them look bad. 

Like I said, that's only if that was the extent of the rant, but it reminds me of the MWG and Dark Artisan battle reports were they both concluded Slaanesh sucked after forgetting half the rules and playing very poorly. It's a shame to see people say the army's bad because they made poor plays. The army does have issues, but it's easy to conflate poor performance with poor rules. Moreover, it can put off new players who may otherwise enjoy the army but have been told by others that they're bad, even though the 'others' have this negative opinion because they played poorly. 

Yeah, I was particularly frustrated with MWG for this reason. I really enjoy their content but it does seem that the sheer volume of armies and games they play causes them to lose track of the finer points of some armies (they can also appear quite nonchalant and handwave rules away "as not making an impact anyway").  I think Tabletop Titan's game has thus far been the most accurate. Adrian (the HoS player) used summoning to his advantage and played to the army's strength.

I've deliberately sought out players who talk about what and how to solve it as opposed to bemoan X or Y. 2+tough for getting pumped on lore and I think Thete and Meta Slayers take on HoS was good too. Then mirror this towards the criticisms and formulate my own opinion on it. I am INCREDIBLY happy that HoS isn't some crazy S+ tier meta army because AoS needs to keep those down to a few not increase their number.

 

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

Yeah, just some points here and there and I think we'll hit the spot. The tactical impact of our summoning cannot be understated. Generally speaking when creating an army list right now it feels like I'm always one unit short (or cannot afford a battalion to make it all click). If the overall points gets lowered to accommodate such a change then I think the army would sit comfortably as as strong finesse army without dipping into being frustrating to face. 

For now I'm just going to bite the bullet and, hopefully, be pleasantly surprised when I am all of the suddenly able to add another unit or two to my army with the points update later this year. Having to maximise the value of certain units now it is opportunity to prove ourselves worthy of Slaanesh's attention and favour. What's a bit of pain, after all?

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

23 hours ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Anyone tried something bonkers like running three bladebringers on exalted Seeker chariots? 750 points, 75 attacks. 
 

I realize it requires owning three (which I do...)

Seeker chariots in a Seeker Cavalcade battalion in Godseekers could be an interesting variant with similar output. 2 per unit at 260 points, very fast, can retreat and charge (more DPs cause Godseekers + more objective control), battleline in Godseekers, and that wonderful 6" range activation/pile-in. Better yet, how about 3 Bladebringers on Exalted seeker chariots and a beefed out Seeker Cavalcade with Seeker chariots?

3 Bladebringers on exalted chariot, 2 x 5 slickblade seekers, 3 x 2 seeker chariots comes in at 1930, 106 wounds (most on 4+ save). Leaves a bit of room for another CP, bound spells, or some cheap backline unit to keep back objectives clear. 

[AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion]

On 3/11/2021 at 8:36 PM, AngryPanda said:

In that case, let’s hope we get those point reductions! I’m writing an email to them tonight with some feedback and suggestions on how to better balance the book. 
 

Summoning in the book feels like more of a “utility” because it’s only allowed once per turn, which I like a lot because it adds strategy to our play style. If I’m playing against a caster heavy list, I’ll have the option to summon an Infernal Enrapturess, or if I’m going against multi-wound units I can summon in some fiends. Certain builds will be created around the prospect of generating DP as fast as possible, but being able only summon once a turn isn’t going to break the game. The point reduction is going to put us into a much better place, assuming that GW receives and listens to  the feedback.  
 

 

Looking at it from the perspective of an opponent I think summoning can be far more than utility. 20-30 blobs of daemonettes can stake ownership of an objective, a keeper can prove invaluable for dealing with a certain threat. However, the added utility is something that is really interesting as well. Friends as you mentioned could appear as monster hunters but also inflict debuffs on tougher units. In other words, being able to have such immense flexibility looks game changing to me. For example, I think 30 daemonettes in the mid/end game will win you games and when the game ramps up those DPs will come rolling in.

Closest comparison I can think of is FEC (daemonettes = ghouls, twinsouls/painbraingers = horrors/flayers, and so on) since they also pay a summoning/healing tax (starting to think there's a pattern to the type of army I'm drawn to). Doing some list comparisons we did have similar amount of wounds but have stronger summoning over the course of the game. My thinking is that they got to be really careful in lowering the cost too much, assuming they do, cause right now HoS looks more finesse than before and I like that. That said, there is something that feels off in the list building, e.g. when picking a battalion warscroll you have to remove a key unit to make room (ironically making the battalion itself quite meh).

New to HoS though, so take this as an outsider looking in.