Raffonerd
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Posts posted by Raffonerd
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I agree with you guys.
The thing is that if you can get turn 1, and you cast protection + ethereal on Teclis (without syaing cogs or even a worse mystical shield), he will survive turn one for sure. Which is not granted for Alarielle.
Plus, not in every mission he can be hitted that hard to die first turn. If that happens, and he survives, a double turn can easily wipe out the opponent. (think about a KO going all in and leave Teclis with 2 wounds, he goes double turn, cast 8 spells + cac/shooting, you have won that). So, it's pretty risky also for you opponent. If he does not goes all in, you can try to cast protection + ehtereal and try to save him.
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8 hours ago, woolf said:
I think I would go with something like:
Alarith temple (120)
Avalenor (360)
2x Stonemage (260)
15/10/10 Stoneguards (700)
10x Dawnriders (260)
20x Sentinels (280)
(total 1980)
Idea being that Avalenor and the Stonemage from the batallion would split up the stoneguards in the batallion between them so you can cover at least 2 parts of the board while still giving out the re-roll bonus. The extra stonemage im not 100% sure about but idea was for him to tail Avalenor to make him ignore dmg table (which makes him properly frightening) and also be able to use the free command ability from his Elder wisdom ability (just seems Avalenor wants a stonemage next to him).
The 35 Stoneguard should be a pretty tough core of an army, in particular in Ymetrica (which would be the natural choice here I would think although Syar/Iliatha could have some merit as well)
The Sentinels can pick off support heroes and help soften up key objectives for Dawnriders to then clear up before your Stoneguard gets there. Also the sentinels can be equipped with Speed of hysh to help you get where you want early in the game. Could also consider splitting up the Dawnriders and sentinels in more units to get access to more spellcasting options (although drops would go up ofc). Avalenor would take his retinue and just smash face wherever you really need to win.
Just theory ofc but some thoughts at least
I like it, maybe with a Cathalan for bravery. I think is goint to be the all-rounder list.
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Yeah, the problem with Teclis is:
Ok, great spells but it needs to start first and use his twice cast to become Ethereal and have FNP 5+. So, more or less he becomes useless in order to survive.
Alarith is good only if you pick Ymetrica. Which means that, if you pick Alarith, ignore rend -2 is so benefical that you can't avoid to get it.
So, in the end you go for:
Ymetrica + knights maybe (some dispells and 1 cathalan for bravery)
Full vanari with a lot of sentinels. (maybe 2 drop high risk teclis or 3 drops with riders).
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9 minutes ago, Gobboz said:
I’ve been brewing something similar.
- Teclis
- Alarith battalion with Avalenor and 10,5,5 Stoneguard.
- 2x5 Dawnriders
- 70 points left over for endless spellsThe idea is that the Alarith battalion is your castle and the dawnriders are there to help claim far objectives.
Thoughts?
Yes, seems good. The problem can be the first turn fire or teclis or beeing second to sit on objectives.
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On 7/11/2020 at 11:41 AM, Incineroar87 said:
I know Syar and Zaitrec are attracting all competitive attention at current, do you think Ymetica and the Alarith support will also be viable on the table despite Stoneguard being few in number ? Stoneguard + Stoneheart King + Stone Mages backed by a few Wardens or Sentinels could be quite solid. Our Shooting seems to be the best way to complete the durable but slow movement of the Alarith.
I think it will be the competitive T1 list.
More I think about them more I see only 2 options:
1) Battalion (with Avelanor) + Teclis
2) 2x Battalion 20x2 x2 Hammerers
Both with 2 drops and heavy infantry + great command abilities.
The rest is more or less "fried air"/good sculpt.
About beeing slow, yes, you are slow. But you can use the speed and start first. Send all to the objectives and camp there moving others by 4" if you need space. You have -1 hit (avelanor), reroll save, after save with teclis, ignore rend -2. You die turn 3? ok, fine. I got the scores. If they come to fight you you have command to increase AA and a good amount of mortals. If you don't kill you score again by moving them. Easy peasy. If you don't score turn one? No problem, I charge second turn and I start push you away. I will score.
You have a terrible amount of wounds (2 battalions or teclis with after save is crazy. If you calculated effectively, you have more or less 150 wounds with ignore rend -2).
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32 mm bases. I have them
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5 hours ago, Chumphammer said:
So, my none teclis list now we know more is similar to the one on the last page but with tweeks and items:
Zaitrec
Eltharion: 220
Alarith Stonemage - 130 pts - General, Fast Learner, Gift of Celennar. Spells: Overwhelming heat, Assault of stone, Voice of the mountains
Scinari Cathallar - 140 pts - Silver Wand. Spells: Overwhelming heat, protection of Hysh, Total Eclipse
30 Wardens - 360 pts – Spell: protection of Hysh, Overwhelming heat
10 Wardens - 120 pts - Ethereal Blessing, Overwhelming heat
10 Sentinels - 140 pts - Lambent Light,, Overwhelming heat
10 Sentinels - 140 pts - Solar Flare, Overwhelming heat,
5 Dawnriders – 130 pts - Swiftness of Hysh, Overwhelming heat,
5 Alarath Stoneguard - 100pts (Hammers)
Avalenor, The stoneheart King – 360pts
Auralan Legion - 120 pts
Hyshian Twinstones – 30 pts
1990pts total, 6 drops, 111 Wounds, 10 Units
8 Casts, 8 dispels
I think that this is they way 2 go.
The only problem that is see is that you could have problems against heavy orde army.
I will try to improve endless number (8 cast and just 1 endless?), and the knight number (at least 10 to have a 30" charge with a full buffed unit). I'm more focused on: 2 battalions Knight + Legion (3 drop list), with more endless.
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Depends, btw TE or Hammerhall (if you use arcanum also you can spam +1 aa to them and make them do 2 combat phases)
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Better idea that I think is to use helmless heads.
Cause the model is pretty much compressed, so maybe it's not good to develop it in height.
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Guys, they way to play is to spam Alarith without teclis. The rest is nothing or casual gaming
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PS: I love the knight models
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My Hammerhall, tryed a couple of games and it's pretty solid. What do you think?
Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- City: Hammerhal
LEADERS
Anointed of Asuryan on Flamespyre Phoenix (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Blood of the Twelve
- Artefact : The Twinstone
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Lore of Cinder : Wings of Fire
UNITS
30 x Phoenix Guard (420)
10 x Eternal Guard (130)
10 x Eternal Guard (130)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (130)
- Lore of Cinder : Cindercloud
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Extra Command Point (50)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 101
LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 3/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 0/400-
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Competitive High Elfs of Hammerhall
Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- City: Hammerhal
LEADERS
Anointed of Asuryan on Flamespyre Phoenix (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Blood of the Twelve
- Artefact : The Twinstone
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Lore of Cinder : Wings of Fire
UNITS
30 x Phoenix Guard (420)
10 x Eternal Guard (130)
10 x Eternal Guard (130)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (130)
- Lore of Cinder : Cindercloud
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Extra Command Point (50)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 101
LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 3/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 0/400 -
On 2/5/2020 at 2:10 AM, swarmofseals said:
Personally I think that Irondrakes aren't a great call for Living City. Check up thread where I do an extensive review of ranged units for my logic. I'm sure they are fine if it's not competitive though.
I think the list is good.
And yes, I prefer SoW instead of Drakes in LC. Plus I will change general trait with +1 TS on the phoenix and spear to fight at start of the combat (or you can put it on durthu if you keep him). Remove Emerald as you don't use large size units and remove 1 between durthu and fulminators as long as your "charge" will be calculated and you can't spend more then 1 cp for that.
Better to have the battlemage on the luminarch, for the cost difference it worth.
I've done a big tournament with LC with this list ending 3 - 2. Tournament was before Tzeench FAQ. Won against Ossiark, FeC, Skaven; lost against Tzeench and Deepkin.
Prince 120 Heraldor 100 Anoited 100 Bmage 90 Evo 440 Tree Revenants 80 Phoenix Guards 320 Sisters of Watch 160 Sisters of Watch 160 Sisters of Watch 160 Sisters of Thorn 130 Sequitors 130 Total 1990 What I've missed was Anoited on Frost for sure, and maybe 30 PG. Prince is totally useless as Bmage (for their cost). Plus I think that 20 SoW can still do their job.
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On 2/10/2020 at 3:38 AM, NauticalSoup said:
So anyone still playing GA Order or are those days pretty much over?
Over
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18 minutes ago, Milano said:
@Raffonerd Which Hero would you swap for the Relictor?
Comet, then swap 5 sequi for 5 lib and getting the CP.
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18 hours ago, Milano said:
Im currently painting my own kitties list. Glad you brought it up. Ever thought about adding a second caster and a comet? Something like that:
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline
Knight-Heraldor
Knight-Incantor
Lord-Castellant
5 x Sequitors
5 x Sequitors
5 x Sequitors
6 x Evocators on Dracolines
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows
3 x Aetherwings
Everblaze Comet
Total: 1980 / 2000I will do: Tempest lords, drop 5 sequitors for 5 liberators and insert relictor (traslocation) and extra cp. Perfect storm list.
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5 minutes ago, feadair said:
My question is: why not both? 😉 I have been playing the traditional Anvilstrike list but plan to test the version with Dracolines in the future. I love the traditional list, but it feels like it could benefit from more mobility.
I hope so! It would be very cool to have multiple competitive builds. There did not seem to be any Stormcast in the top 20 in CanCon or GW GT Heat 1 last weekend, but Anvilstrike did get to the top 8 in LVO, courtesy of jhmaslam.
Point of attenction LVO had old Tzeench and KO.
Also I saw only 1 CDL list and I didn't like it.
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32 minutes ago, feadair said:
A more general damage comparison between 6 Evocators on CDLs (50/50 weapons) and 10 foot Evocators, without any save rerolls, is below.
Lessons include: Evos on CDLs are excellent in terms of damage if you charge a lot. If you take them, include a Knight-Heraldor for this reason. If you plan to slog it out without charges and care only about damage, go for evocators with grandstaves (unless facing VERY good saves).
Save
Evocators on Celestial Dracolines
Evocators on Celestial Dracolines, charging
Evocators, 50/50 weapons
Evocators, Grandstaves
2+
11.78
14.44
15.19
14.44
3+
15.33
19.33
18.89
18.89
4+
18.89
24.22
22.59
23.33
5+
22.44
29.11
26.3
27.78
6+
26
34
30
32.22
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27.33
35.33
32.22
36.67
The problem is re-roll save here.
17 minutes ago, feadair said:Fair enough. Having said that, the main attraction of Dracolines is mobility. Even in Anvils, a 12" move and native reroll charges (which allows you to cast Empower) seem solid if you need to get your melee guys somewhere quickly. This is an issue that I have encountered in my games when the opponent does not cooperate with my plan A of first shooting them to pieces and then counterattacking at my leisure. The question is how much do you have to give up for it.
Also, I agree that if going Dracolines, LAonCDL + Pride Leader is likely correct, although you will have to make some further sacrifices (an Incantor+Azyros) for it.
Is not a sacrifice. This is the Dracoline way to play. It depend on what style you want to play. Dracolines need to hard charge and go for 60 wounds (which means erase the opponent quickly). Anvils is epic in 5 turns (10 shotting phases).
I think that they are both competitive, but to play dracoline you need to use the command ability to overcome their inefficiency. (Btw I think that Dracolines' list is even better then Anvilstrike by now).
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1 hour ago, feadair said:
I did some maths comparing 10 Evocators on foot with 6 Evocators on Celestial Dracolines specifically against Petrifex Mortek Guard (Save 3+, reroll saves), using https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/. Turns out that Evocators on Dracolines are not too far behind if they get to charge, but Evocators on foot beat them squarely if no charging is involved. For simplicity, I ignored the extra attacks from Primes.
Specifically, Evocators on foot do on average 13.7 damage (assuming half use blades and stormstaves, half grandstaves). If all are on grandstaves, this falls to 12.96.
Evocators on CDLs (again assuming 50/50 weapon split) do 10.22 damage if not charging. On a charge, this increases to 12.22. (If they get to benefit from Pride Leader, it is 11.28, and 13.78 on a charge).This suggests that even against PE Mortek Guard Evocators on Dracolines are somewhat competitive on damage, assuming you have a good chance of getting the charges in. Knight-Heraldor will be an important asset here, as it allows retreat and charge.
All of the above is subject to me not ****** up the maths somewhere, a non-zero possibility. (Edited already for this reason)
You are still missing a lot of stuff:
1) Anvils command: more efficient with on foot evocators
2) Evocators counts as 10 model and cost 80 points less
3) they all have range 2".
If you want to go dracolines you need Larcanum+mount trait+ Cps (T lord or Vindicators).
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39 minutes ago, Tiger said:
There's also an elf with a bow that's direct towards the viewer at about: 0:05 in the video.
True, maybe a dual kit from Vanari.
I think also swardmaster are included. So 2 infantry kit, 1 double knight kit, and we hope for beasts.
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1 hour ago, Cerve said:
I come from 40k where I used to play it competitively, but AoS it's a different game and I need to find some inner balance to the list. Anyway the last one I played vs Ossiarch was a bit unbalanced into shooting and it was this:
Nomad Prince General (Druid, Ghyranstrike from Ghyran, Ironoak Skin)
Battlemage Hysh (Adjutant, Lifesurge)
Drycha (Cage of Thorns)
5x10 SotW
9 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes)
+1 CP, Total; 1980
The damage output is great, but I'm keeping learning about timing. My last game was a loss because I came in game too late (he beats me on VPs).
I suggest you to change item on the prince. Use +1 aa to all Sylvaneth.
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On 1/10/2020 at 6:50 PM, swarmofseals said:
The SotW buffed table already covers the buff from prince or hurricanum (+1 to hit), and that buff is enough to make SotW hit on 2+, so adding an extra +1 to hit doesn't really help unless the target has a -1 hit penalty. The tables all assume the units are standing still for the +1 attack. Stand and shoot response will deal half the damage that the table says because Sisters only get +1 attack if they don't move and no enemies are within 3". When stand and shoot triggers there will be enemies within 3" by definition, so no second attack.
You are correct that all of this mathhammer should be factoring in standard deviations as well. The maximum possible damage for SotW is indeed higher. That said, the greater standard deviation cuts both ways: instances where they will underperform their means will also be more common.
You have framed the higher standard deviation of SotW as a benefit, and I don't think that is necessarily accurate. It really depends on the situation. Lets look at a couple of examples:
- Scenario 1: You are in a situation where you are very unlikely to win the game and need an extreme outcome to win. In this case having the high performance ceiling and higher standard deviation is to your advantage, as an average result won't be enough.
- Scenario 2: You are in a situation where you are very likely to win and it would take an extreme outcome for you to lose. In this case having high performance ceiling with higher standard deviation is to your disadvantage, as getting an extreme positive result isn't necessary for victory, but having a higher likelihood of a well below average result means losing is more likely.
- Scenario 3: You are playing in a tournament with the goal of going 5-0. If you are a good player with a good list, then you want consistent results from your units as you are more likely to be able to win through outplaying your opponent unless an outlier result drags you down. If you are a less good player or are using a less good list, then you want more variance because you can get lucky and win games that you would otherwise not win with average results.
I'll also try another way of explaining it. Imagine you have two units. One unit produces a result of 1-7, with each number coming up an equal percent of the time. Another unit produces a result of 3-5, with 4 coming up 90% of the time and 3 and 5 each coming up 5% of the time respectively. Both of these units have an average result of 4.
In Scenario 1, you are behind in the game and are activating your unit. You need a result of 6 or better in order to get back into the game. In this case, the first unit will get you the result you want about 29% of the time. The second unit will never get you the result you want. In this situation, having the higher variance unit is clearly better.
In Scenario 2, you are ahead in the game and are activating your unit. Any result of 3 or better will win the game. In this case the first unit will win the game about 71% of the time, while the second unit will win the game 100% of the time. In this case the second unit is clearly better.
TL;DR: The more favored you are in a given game, the more variance works against you. Conversely, the less favored you are in a given game, the more variance works in your favor.
The fact is that you need some lucky to win a tournament. If everything goes average the chance of winning is more or less 0. Plus, as shooting happens in your turn, you are able to modify the strategy in charge phase to overcome negative outcomes or positive outcomes.
Anyway, this is not the element to focus on. The fact are:
1) you cannot rely on buffs, the opponent can remove the buffers
2) They have more range, best stat for shoters
3) Stand and Shot, if you opponent is good you wont have the chance to delete his stuff in shooting so having at least one chance to shot is very important. (in example, you can delete chaff without beeing engaged in cac in your turn.)
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15 hours ago, swarmofseals said:
The question is a mathematical one, so let's look at the math.
30 Sisters of the Watch, unbuffed
- Vs no save: 33.61 damage (.07 damage per point)
- vs 6+: 29.12 damage (.061 damage per point)
- vs 5+: 24.65 damage (.051 damage per point)
- vs 4+: 20.17 damage (.042 damage per point)
- vs 3+: 15.69 damage (.033 damage per point)
- vs 2+: 11.2 damage (.023 damage per point)
30 Sisters of the Watch, buffed (+1 hit)
- vs no save: 41.67 damage (.087)
- vs 6+: 36.11 damage (.075)
- vs 5+: 30.56 damage (.064)
- vs 4+: 25 damage (.052)
- vs 3+: 19.44 damage (.041)
- vs 2+: 13.89 damage (.029)
30 Irondrakes, unbuffed
- vs no save: 27.55 damage (.061)
- vs 6+: 27.55 damage (.061)
- vs 5+: 23.26 damage (.052)
- vs 4+: 18.67 damage (.041)
- vs 3+: 14.07 damage (.031)
- vs 2+: 9.48 damage (.021)
30 Irondrakes, buffed (+1 hit, -1 rend, rr 1s to wound)
- vs no save: 40.19 damage (.089)
- vs 6+: 40.19 damage (.089)
- vs 5+: 40.19 damage (.089)
- vs 4+: 33.92 damage (.075)
- vs 3+: 27.22 damage (.06)
- vs 2+: 20.53 damage (.046)
30 Freeguild Crossbows, unbuffed
- vs no save: 20.22 damage (.067)
- vs 6+: 16.85 damage (.056)
- vs 5+: 13.48 damage (.045)
- vs 4+: 10.11 damage (.034)
- vs 3+: 6.74 damage (.022)
- vs 2+: 3.37 damage (.011)
30 Freeguild Crossbows, buffed (+2 hit, +1 wound)
- vs no save: 41.67 damage (.139)
- vs 6+: 34.62 damage (.115)
- vs 5+: 27.78 damage (.093)
- vs 4+: 20.83 damage (.069)
- vs 3+: 13.89 damage (.046)
- vs 2+: 6.94 damage (.023)
I think that these numbers illustrate my point nicely. With a high rend option (like buffed Irondrakes), you see really flat efficiency against poor saves but good efficiency against good saves. With a no rend option like Crossbows you see great efficiency against poor saves that falls off sharply as the save gets better.
With a mixed option like SotW, you see more consistency across different saves. The peaks aren't as high, relatively speaking, but the valleys aren't as low either.
Comparing the tables shows that without the benefit of buffs, Sisters of the Watch have the best overall performance although the difference between Sisters and Irondrakes is really small. Freeguild Crossbows are pretty competitive against poor saves but significantly worse against really good saves.
Once you factor in available buffs, Irondrakes become significantly better than SotW except against null saves. This is the flattening that I was talking about earlier -- high rend is relatively inefficient against low armor. Meanwhile, Freeguild Crossbows just blow the other options out of the water against low saves. It's not even close to close. SotW only surpass crossbows against a 2+ save, although they are very close at 3+. Meanwhile, Irondrakes pass crossbows against a 4+ save and are markedly better against 3+ and 2+ saves.
Here are the defensive efficiencies:
Sisters of the Watch: .094-.063
Irondrakes (melee): .133-.067
Irondrakes (ranged): .2-.067
Freeguild Crossbows: .12-.1
Additionally, Sisters of the Watch have a slight speed advantage, slight range advantage over Irondrakes, the benefit of stand and shoot (although at half strength) and require the lowest effort to buff (only a Nomad Prince OR Hurricanum). Offensively they are probably the most efficient choice without buffs, and they perform decently against any armor type. Defensively they are the least efficient.
Irondrakes have the lowest speed and lowest range and require the highest effort to fully buff (Longbeards, Runesmith, and Hurricanum), but they have a slight extra bonus against monsters. Defensively they are the most efficient against low rend attacks, and are by far the most efficient against low rend shooting.
Crossbows have medium speed and require medium effort to buff (Freeguild General and Hurricanum) but enjoy the longest range by far. Defensively they are middle of the pack against low rend and by far the best against mortal wounds.
TL;DR: Mathematically speaking all of these options are valid and all have a role depending on the composition of the rest of your list.
This is algebric speaking. You still not counting the positive deviation buff of SoW. (As you get lucky Mortal on 6 effect will increase more damage in respect to other units in comparison).
Anyway, you have pointed out for the basic concept that I've been trying to explain from like 2 months in the forum so Good Job!
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20 hours ago, Tidings said:
I figured that's what he meant but it's a misleading way to write it, because of the 9" bubble and the fact that it's not a true 24" threat range; you only shoot once if you move.
I get everything you are saying and agree that it is very strong. It's the same thing when playing against FEC basically, but even better than FEC. The main thing I don't like is that it can still be played around. I have never lost to an ambushing army in tournaments because if you build a good list, you will have cheap screeners and you can decide what is okay to let die and screen what you need to win. It definitely forces your opponent to play smart and make tough choices, but it's always able to be played around by a good player who made a good list.
Regarding Irondrakes and Sisters, Irondrakes are mathematically more efficient. They do more damage per point than the more expensive sisters, carry buffs better, all while being more durable. Mortal Wounds are nice though and they're pretty close so it really is preference. Here's a chart though in case you are curious!
Graph is comparing units of 30, and does NOT factor in the point cost - just damage output. Buffs include +1/+1 as you can do that in TE easily, and Irondrakes also have their rending improved (which you can stack btw, I only show it once)
This can be true but if you encounter also variance SoW will be better then this, because as you get lucky on 6 your damage will rise better then dwarfs damage. Working on means is not statistically a good stuff. On top of this Ethereal stuff always exist in this game.
In the end, SoW has 2" more in range. That can make the difference for large units coming out from hidden paths.
Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion
in Lumineth Realm-Lords
Posted · Edited by Raffonerd
I'm into this.
The fact is: Do you need a magic protection? You have to take teclis. If not, maybe he's not worthy.
Because reliable cast doesn't mean the spell will go for sure (unbind) and it's profile is pretty weak. Anyway, i think that he is playable as long as you use it as a bait for the enemy. Bait in the sense that, even if he gets wounds, his casts remains the same. So, can be pretty worthy. Or let's waint to see the karadron nerf
In the end, I'm more into Ilathia then the other nations.