Wraith
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Posts posted by Wraith
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12 hours ago, JackStreicher said:
I am not worried. It’s rather weird that all chaos warriors have the same body height
If heroes are slightly bigger it simply shows that chaos pumped them up more.
I'll try to add some photo comparisons on the weekend. It is a matter of taste and I might be too fussy.
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13 hours ago, EntMan said:
Iirc there's only one battletome on the roadmap and it's either confirmed or almost certainly FEC.
I think FEC is the only one without a 3rd edition battletome. What else could it be?
It is odd that it will come out around Christmas. Surely that is when GW is looking to release lots of new models to fill the Xmas stockings. A range refresh for FEC, maybe?
Or maybe not. The last battletome will probably be a new Stormcast BT and the FEC, given they think they are Bretonnians, will not get another new BT for several more rules editions.
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On 3/15/2023 at 5:36 AM, Grimrock said:
Question for anyone that has bought the new Exalted Hero of Chaos model, how does it compare size wise to the standard chaos warriors? I've been thinking of picking up the Khagra's Ravagers box and using it for a chaos lord, two exalted heroes, and a chaos sorcerer, but I'm not sure if they'll be a suitable standins once they're on 40mm bases.
The new Exalted Hero is huge compared to standard warriors. Definitely scale creep going on here. Also, the new Chaos Lord on Demonic Mount is huge. Like Varanguard size. He is a dual kit with Eternus.
I am not that pleased with either as they look like a different scale compared to the older models. I will probably sell them. I think I will rebase the limited edition Chaos figure, Holga Clovenhorn, to a 40mm base and use her for an Exalted Hero. She is only a little bit bigger than a normal warrior.
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The Old World project has managed to catch my imagination. I have conceived of a desire to build a Dark Elf army for the occasion, as I used to run Dark Elves back in 3rd edition. I wonder if they will reintroduce to 3rd ed combat resolution? I feel it is more fun than later combat res rules.
Regarding base sizes, I initially thought that I'd stick with the original sizes to be backward compatible. But, after studying the 21st Century Dark Elf minis, I think the larger base sizes make sense. In fact, they should have done the larger base sizes in 5th or 6th edition.
I am hopeful for 2030 release date so that I might get my army painted in time.
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17 minutes ago, El Syf said:
He brings eyes on it though and does seem to at least enjoy some aspects of the hobby.
Yeah, it will go mainstream.
The downside is the lore will get sanitized to make it conform to contemporary mainstream values. No more hiding from moral judgement in a fringe culture now! In today's world that means political correctness. But for those who find this objectionable, and even for those who like the idea, I want to point out that every age has it's own mainstream political morality. Thirty years ago, it would have been the Christian right imposing the moral judgements and censoring that which they found objectionable (EG: attempts to band D&D in the 80's, various attempts to band Anime in the last 30 years, etc). Today it is the ideological zealots from the uni campus who seek to purify MTG and also want to ban Anime they don't like. (Why does Anime always attract the attention of the Puritans?)
There is value in not being mainstream in that small and obscure sub cultures are subject to less pressure to conform to the political beliefs of a particular day and age. The Bohemian amongst us might need to go looking for somewhere else to hide from mainstream conformity. The cost is that everyone thinks you are weird.
The up side is the second hand market might see big increases in demand and thus better prices. Mainstream means more money. And everyone knows what you are talking about when you mention our favourite characters. So, I don't know. Maybe the girls will like you as your new found cultural fashionably will make you popular. So money and popularity will be there, if that is what one desires most in life.
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On 12/3/2022 at 7:46 AM, Bosskelot said:
Not really. 8th died for multitude of reasons, many of which started in 7th and sort of compounded upon each other over time. GW of that time period was also a very different company to what it is now and there's been a lot of evidence and statements by former employees that 40k was originally planned to have an AOS-style reset itself before the new management that came in during 2015 saw how badly AOS 1.0 did and (wisely) put that idea into the bin.
Although some of the contributing factors to 8th's demise were a lack of regular releases, with many armies languishing with outdated stuff or even without proper updated rules, for years at a time, and also bad releases that added stuff to armies that they either didn't want or need, or were actively bad in the rules system of the game. Tomb Kings are like the ur-example of this; gorgeous new monster sculpts (all pretty bad in the 8th edition ruleset) and yet all of their core infantry were still the ancient (even for that time) outdated plastics that really hadn't aged well.
I think there's definitely echoes of that in AOS 3 currently, with far too many armies languishing with ancient sculpts or half-finished rosters, meanwhile they get yet another plastic hero on foot to go along with the 12 others in their book. However, to stay history is going to repeat itself is just panicmongering and GW nowadays have a much better handle on how to do releases and support their games properly; it's just a lot of this stuff takes time. It does however sting for AOS when 40k has had a crazy edition where almost every other army has had extensive model refreshes and expansions that have focused on bringing ranges into the 21st century properly, yet Skaven are still having to buy individual poison wind globadiers from 1994 for £12, and Ironjawz haven't actually had any model release since like 2016.I recently watched an interview of Peachy. He explained why WHB was replaced with AoS.
Some of the reasons he gives for the end of WFB:
- too complex
-shrinking market share
- lack of new player interest
- established players not buying new product
-Old World too limiting on lore development
-IP issues
-figure design limited to square bases
He also debunks the argument that "lack of product support was to blame" by pointing that there is no point producing product that isn't going to sell. If the established players want support, then they have to buy product. Or get in new people who will do that. Without a viable market, the industry ceases to exist.
I think he is being too polite.
Lets be honest. A typical WFB tournament was dominated by fat neck beards, gorging themselves on fast food. Seriously, it looked like an Ogor Mawtribe encampment in there! And the smell! Which other hobby convention had to remind attendees to bring deodorant?
A new player would have to get their head around a complex ruleset, buy a large army, and then be confronted with a condescending male hierarchy demanding the new player's obeisance. It was not GW's fault that WFB was canned. It was the neck beards who came to dominate the EFB community who killed it. Thankfully most of them have left Warhammer to pursue their hobby in the 9th Age movement.
We need to keep AoS rules fairly simple, to keep army scale down to what newbies can reasonably collect, keep it family friendly and established players should be friendly toward new players rather than condescending. In short, we need to be careful to avoid letting man babies take over the community as happened in the last two editions of WFB.
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1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:
I am also okay if GW is a miniatures based company. It's the one thing they do that I enjoy (except for things like the Goff Rokker animation).
But this just makes them ignoring AoS even more obvious.
Yeah, I am totally not interested in the Goff Rocker. However, I would say a lack of model support for AoS is a good thing. If GW didn’t release another AoS model for about five years, I just might be able to clear my painting backlog. Except for Eterus. I need Eternus now. I must have Eternus!
7 minutes ago, Aleser said:I am expecting Looncourt (New goblin warband for WU). Not sure what is left for other systems. AoS is done for this year most likely.
Where is Eternus? Nooooo….
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35 minutes ago, Overread said:
It's intentional because AoS at launch was basically aiming to be army agnostic. That's why GW created 4 themed Grand Alliances and shattered a lot of big armies into small components.
I'd wager if we could see the sales data GW have we might even have spotted that those components were based upon sales metrics. If you sold within a certain threshold of values you were split off into your own army (which would explain why some factions had only 1 model to their name). AoS was an accountants game design based on sales data. Those that fell below the line were dropped, those that were above a line survived and those in the middle got fragmented.
I suspect if we'd stuck with that plan "armies"wouldn't have existed beyond a few. The majority would have been one to two release wonders. Small forces that would last a certain amount of time on the market before being rotated out once their sales dipped. The 4 Grand Alliances would preserve the structure of the game as you'd not collect an "army" but an "alliance". So it wouldn't matter if Fyreslayers vanished because you'd just pick up another Order faction to bolster your Alliance.
Plus the game wasn't really a game, it was just a backdrop for a collection.To be fair, the business model for GW and other successful games companies is to sell miniatures. The rules are there to create demand for their models. Another example is Corvus Belli. There is nothing wrong with this in and of itself. If GW didn't make enough money, they would not be able to keep up the pace of rules support and background stuff like novels. In fact, now that I think about it, people like me who buy too many miniatures deserve affirmation for helping to create the wealth needed to further employ the lore creators.
If there is something that GW could be criticised for, it would be how their do their IP thing without any acknowledgement of the 1960's and 70's sources that inspired the Warhammer world in the first place. For example: Micheal Moorcock's Storm-bringer series, art by people like Frank Frazzetta, the Heavy Metal magazine and it's European forerunners, and many more. GW build on all these sources of then mainstream fantasy in the late 70's and 80's, but today seek to impose their own copyright on it. The Chaos symbol, for example, was a Michael Moorcock creation. It should be public IP. I think GW failed on their attempt to trademark "Space Marine". It had been used before 40K had even been launched.
Anyway, it is ok by me if GW takes a miniatures centric business model, as they have to remain profitable. I see no reason why they shouldn't trademark any IP that they really did come up with themselves. And it would be to their credit if they would be honest about the cultural sources that inspired Warhammer.
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Is that Space Wolves or Space Pooches?
Anyway, getting back on track, AoS needs to be careful to avoid becoming to complex and too competitive. Isn’t that what killed 8th edition?
Aside from the double turn, do we need both a command point system and heroic actions?
Regarding the vibe, AoS 1 had a much more relaxed community which was more accessible to the novice. It seemed to become more tournament focused in AoS 2. Have we lost the artistic players?
The final point is that it is the lore that gets a person into one particular game over another. AoS lore has a lot of potential. Lore has always been GW’s strong point, so I think AoS will do well as long as the world is being developed.
I actually prefer the Mortal Realms over the Old World. In fact I was never impressed by the Old World, even back in the 3rd Ed days when I started. I played historical games too, and the Old World looked to me like a unimaginative adaption of 15th/16th century Europe to a fantasy setting. But a lot of people love it! I just find the Mortal Realms concept to be more creative with more possibilities.
But could GW promote the Lore and story a bit more? There isn’t much on Warhammer plus, for example. That is what will get people excited enough to endure the dreaded double turn.
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4 hours ago, Chikout said:
The person who shared the leaks says that this isn't true. There will still be sub factions base on cities but there will also be a dawnbringers sub faction. He compares it to Big Waagh in the Orruk Warclans book.
Did the sharer of leaks state there will still be two seperate tomes? if so, when will a new CoS tome be released?
I find it surprising that GW would drop miniatures from their range while still having war scrolls in a current tome. Possibly the Dawnbringers tome will include two build options, similar to how Stormcast can choose the deep strike version or the CoS integrated version.
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12 hours ago, novakai said:
i believe the rumor is that small heroes (Sub-commanders) gain an ability in the next GHB to be un-targetable by range attacks if they are near another unit (basically 40K lookout sir)
OK, but...didn't they tell us that rank and file troops would be all the rage in Gallet GHB? Then it turned out there was a thing called bounty hunters. I wonder what feature they will include that will kill support heroes with alarming ease in the new GHB?
Regarding Dawnbringers and CoS, my guess is that Dawnbringers will replace CoS. So you get steampunk imperial guard (going by that RPG game) instead of landsknechts. If you want elves and dwarves, you'll have to ally in pieces from one of the four relevant factions. Though this might sound bad, you will probably get cool witch-hunters to go with your steampunk dudes (going by the Van Denst box). And nuns too, going by what they used in Cursed City.
So I am guessing that CoS will go the way of Legions of Nagash. Could be totally wrong, though. Just a gut feeling...
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On 11/26/2022 at 11:55 PM, Bayul said:
I don't know why Karic Acolytes aren't listed by him though. They have a pseudo Ward 6+ with their shields and sufficient melee weapons.
Tzeentch modeling is so far down my list of projects that I forgot that god exists. They also have lesser daemons with missile attacks that could be allied in. I'll use the ungor raiders for now, but that is only because that is what is currently on my workbench. I am not arguing that they are an optimal choice.
On 11/27/2022 at 12:46 AM, Malakithe said:Thats a lot of hammers...
Yes. I just threw in every heavy troop model that I have to see what it looks like. Just enough to fill a 2000 point army.
15 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:...And this without considering the current GH. Being galletian veteran warriors take +1 damage from bounty hunters, while knights don't (and maintain higher output than warriors even without khorne/slaanesh mark). That's why the question might seem simple, but it wasn't. The answer imho is: it depends on the list.
So, this is an argument that I would actually leave open, because we are at the dawn of the new tome and the necessary data should be collected to bring convincing arguments. However, mine was a question more about impressions, rather than actual statistics.
My last test was with a KoTET too and was:
Horse lord
Sorcerer
Stoker
20 Splintered
9 corvus
9 corvus
6 varanguard
10 knights
1 horse chariot
1 horse chariot
The feeling is that of excellent competitive potential (I can deploy on the sidelines to avoid the alpha strike and then counter-load with everything, but I need more tests).Galletian Veterans will go when the next GHB comes out. We need to think beyond that for army concepts. But do take it into account for competition battles for the rest of this year.
I wasn't really talked about stats, but rather what overall army concepts we can come up with. The Ravager build using Archaon and Splintered Fang is the current favourite. It uses Archon's fight on death ability and the replacement ability of the sub faction to maximise attacks the the snake boys. I am not terribly inspired to do the modelling to build this army, so I am not that interested in it. But it shows what an overall army concept looks like. It all works together in a particular way.
So what else can we do? The idea of using the Chaos warband regiment and getting one drop with mostly troop units could be very efficient. I recall one of Vince Venturella's videos discussed how points inefficient most heros were. The idea here is to present the opponent with threat saturation of efficient troop units. I think this one could be promising.
The rules for mounted heroes with first strike on the charge and the ability to activate a knights or chariot unit with them, is the build the designers seem to want us to follow. The ideal battle for this concept would be to do a minimal drop, choose to go second in the first turn, then hopefully get the double turn and charge twice with the heroes and knights in succession. The issue with the screens and count screens is how to prevent the opponent interfering with that. I think the important point here is that this build is all about getting the charge. The Knights need it to max their damage, the hero needs it to get first strike. I think they call this an ABC build (Always Be Charging).
There will be other ideas. For me, I try to see what I can do with an army that I want to model. I like the Legion of the First Prince miniatures, so I am wondering how I can make that effective. I am thinking it will be a concept more along the lines of board control than directly destroying enemy units, using Furies and Corvus Cabel to score victory points. Anyway, here is the assembled January and February painting projects, all undercoated and prepared for painting. I am going to add another Legionnaire unit and I need Eternus to be released. There is still 500 points to play with in this list.
Looking at your army list, how many drops is it? Are you planning on using any battalions? Will you try to control who finished deploying first and thus who goes first?
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Ok, so some lists after that discussion.
First, a general purpose list. I know that the run and charge is doubled up from Slannesh mark and damned legion ability, but I think it is worth getting all mounted to run and charge and get the +1" to run and charge s well. It has two ways to get the 3D6"charge. Three options to clear screens, Bray Shaman's warscroll spell, shooting from the Ungor Raiders and Marauder Horse, and the endless spell. I based selections on what models I have available.
Empty Throne 2000pt -1 drop
Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak - General, arcane tome, master of magic -220pt
Chaos Socerer - Demonic Speed -120pt
Great Bray Shaman - Leviate -100ptBattleline
Chaos Knights (reinforced) , slannesh, +1 attack banner -460pt
Chaos Chosen (reinforced), nurgle -480pt
Marauder Horse , slannesh, javelins -105pt
Marauder Horse , slannesh, javelins -105ptOther
Ungor Raiders (reinforced) -160ptBehemoths
Chaos Warshine , slannesh, curse -185ptEndless Spells
Gnashing Jaws -60ptBattalion
Battle RegimentTOTAL - 1995pt
Attempt at Ror's doctrine. The idea of minimal heroes is points efficient. I don't yet have enough warriors to pull it off, so mine would look like this:
Host of Everchosen 2000pt - 1 drop
Leaders
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak - General, arcane tome, master of magic -220ptBattleline
Chaos Knights (reinforced) , khorne, +1 wound banner -460pt
Chaos Chosen (reinforced), nurgle , -1 rend banner -480ptChaos Warriors, nurgle -220pt
Varanguard , khorne -280pt
Varanguard , khorne -280pt
Endless Spells
Gnashing Jaws -60ptBattalion
Chaos Warband
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1 hour ago, Rors said:
I've been playing around with warrior heavy builds and you need some mobile hammers or there are certain match ups you just loose on. Stuff like hearthguard will win the attrition battle with their 4 up ward, and mobile armies with firepower like KO can kite you and while StD are tough, they not though enough to just stand of objectives and take shots. Chosen have good damage but they're too slow to be a realible hammer if you don't have anything else.
I have found that a solid line of nugle warriors backed up by some khorne knights and varangaurd gives you the flexibility to counter charge hammer and anvil style, or send them forward aggressively if the opponent has something like KO. I've actually found the chaos one drop battalion really good too for this style of play. No other army can put as many units down in a one drop as we can.
One hero and lots of muscle. Sounds like a plan.
2 hours ago, Halkbat said:The combination if endless spells realmscourge rapture and gnashing jaws is really run to send ahead of advancing warriors or chosen. A unit getting hit by both spells can take a lot of mortal wounds and they are both large bases to eat up table space.
Those endless spells might be worth a try at clearing chaff. Getting a clear charge is important for the heavy cavalry.
The sorcerer on Manticore has an 18"range horde clearing spell that might help , too.
Other ideas for dealing with chaff:
1/ cast levitate on the knights so they just fly over the chaff. Only do one a turn, though.
2/ use allied missile troops. EG: ungor raiders, bliss-bard archers, plague drones. I think the bliss-barb work out best as archers. But the plague drones have enough movement that their missile attack might work out well also. Note: only 1 in 4 units, and within 20% of points limit, can be allied. Reinforced archer units might be necessary.
3/ use abilities to move chaff. EG: Khorne Slaughter-priest or Bray-shaman have move enemy unit abilities/spell.
Maybe we need two of these in a list to ensure the chaos knights can get a straight charge at a preferred target?
Just on the subject of allies, I was listening to AoS Coach video on S2D thoughts. The guy being interviewed and AoS Coach himself couldn't see much from Slannesh of value. What of the Acquiescence spell? It targets one unit (D3 if we are talking the Contorted Epitome), which allows rerolls of 1's for attacks against target unit. Doesn't this help Archaon at lot? What am I missing here?
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10 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:
So, I've been playing about 10 games with the StD and I want to bring a couple more thoughts here:
1) Which unit to use as an anvil (mark of nurgle and banner)?
20 Warriors: 40 wounds in midfield, unfortunately suffering +1 damage.
10 Knights: 30 Very Mobile Wounds, unable to contest x3 on obj.
2) In what kind of game do the StDs shine?
Field Control: With the number of battlines, both low cost and armored, certainly the number of models needed on targets is often there. The problem results in the central units, which subtract many points from the list (460/480/580).
Damage per round: activating at least 3 charging units in a row is very strong, however I could see that these units fear counter-charges a lot (30 wounds on 3+ seems rocky, but with current dps they last a combat phase).
What do you think?In response to point 1, the warriors are the anvil. The knights are the hammer.
The first obvious build with the new S2D tome is to take advance of mounted troops and first strike. Both mounted Chaos Lords strike first on the charge and can active a unit of knights or chariots to fight at the same time. So you get three activations in the combat phase with high damage output units before your opponent gets an activation in that combat phase.
It seems there is an alpha strike build in here with the extensive strike first, plus the various ways of increasing charge range. It is highly dependent on getting the charge, and it is susceptible to screening, which your opponent will become very studious about after facing your Calvary list for the first time.
The next obvious build is all about damage resistant Chaos Warriors and Chosen just marching across the board. Doesn't matter who charges first here. In theory you should grind them down by being tougher and sustaining higher damage output. That is: beat them by being better. Unfortunately this is a points based game, so things should be equal. One can't just rely on one's troops being better.
You might add some knights also to get the combined hammer and anvil, with the combination in theory creating more opportunities to use your tactical genius to swing the balance in your favour. I guess you need to experiment with both extremes, all heavy cavalry or all heavy infantry, to see how they work.
In response to point 2, I don't think there has been time for most people to consider what board control options there are. But there are a way array of suitable cultists, marauder horse, furies and allies to look at. Ravagers looks to be to obvious board control option, since it can bring back destroyed screening units. As people start to encounter problems with their heavy units in various scenarios, they will explore what can be done with board control. One thing S2D is lacking is suitable missile troops to clear away screens. What allies can fill this gap? Are there spells in the tome somewhere that can clear screens?
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3 hours ago, readercolin said:
... but I also think that Splintered fang are in line for a solid nerf, and I can potentially see them being bumped up all the way to 150 points per 10.
I would expect so. There seems to be something seriously wrong with that warscroll. I have been ignoring them, as I expect it to be corrected very soon. Even so, they are still incredible value at 150pt. They need attacks to go down to 1 and cost up to 150pt. Then they would be about right.
However, if I am wrong and they don't get a serious nerf, then all those people out there with now obsolete foot marauders might want to paint their shields green, add some bases of snakes and away you go!
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I was comparing my old barbarian meme list with what I can do now. I used to get the marauder horse for one command point each. Now I get most stuff back at half strength for a heroic action. The foot marauder are out. I noticed that the Spire Tyrants have battleshock immunity within 3" of the enemy. Well, that is where one most likely wants battleshock immunity! One of my regular opponents field Nighthaunt, so no inspired presence around the ghosts. I used to get undivided battleshock immunity. I am now thinking that those Spire Tyrants will be the solution to the ghosts this time around.
Darkoath Ravagers 1000pt 2nd Ed
Warqueen* - 90pt
Chieftain* - 85pt
Thedra* - 150ptGodsworn Hunt* - 0pt
Marauder* (20) - 180pt
Marauder* (20) - 180pt
Chariot* - 100pt
Untamed Beast* - 70pt
Bush Turkeys - 85ptEndless Spell: Emerald Lifeswarm
Battalion: Battle Regiment*91 wounds
2 drops
Darkoath Ravagers 985pt 3rd EdWarqueen* - 100pt
Chieftain* - 95pt
Thedra* - 160ptGodsworn Hunt* - 0pt
Maruader Horse* - javelin - 105pt
Maruader Horse* - javelin - 105pt
Untamed Beast* - 90pt
Untamed Beast* - 90ptDarkoath Savages** - 100pt
Spire Tyrants** - 80pt
Endless Spell: Emerald Lifeswarm
Battalion: Battle Regiment*
Bounty Hunters**85 wounds
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15 hours ago, JackStreicher said:
Simply use the content of the new box
(should be around 1000 points)
I need to get other stuff finished before I start on those. I think I need to join that monthly painting contract thread in the painting & modelling section.
Looking at what is close to ready, I might change the list to this:
Ravagers - 1000pts - 2 drops
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak* - Slannesh, general, Dealer of Death - 220pt
Thedra* - binding damnation - 160ptGodsworn Hunt* - 0pt
Chaos Knights* (5) - Slannesh, banner of slannesh - 230pt
Marauder Horse* (5) - undivided, javelins - 105pt
Marauder Horse* (5) - undivided, javelins - 105pt
Untamed Beasts* (9) - 90pt
Untamed Beasts (9) - 90ptBattalion:
Battle Regiment*Then I will work on the rest of the knights, the warriors and more cultists in December. If I get all that done, I might make January a demon month and build the demon prince (Tzeentch) along with some undivided demons waiting to be painted.
Could be April or May by the time I get around to Archaon and the Chosen.
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My copy of the battle box arrived today, accompanied by a Frank Frazetta print to celebrate the occasion. After taking some time to look through it, I have set aside the battle tome for further reading and placed all the minis in the box under the other boxes of stuff waiting to get built. Like Archaon. Must build him one day.
It will be two weeks before I can get in a game. It will be 1000 points. What can we do at that point level?
Ravagers - 1000pts - 1 drop
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak* - Slannesh, general, Dealer of Death - 220pt
Chaos Sorcerer Lord* - Nurgle, binding damnation - 120ptChaos Knights* (5) - Slannesh, banner of slannesh - 230pt
Chaos Warriors* (10) - Nurgle - 220pt
Untamed Beasts* - 90pt
Corvus Cabal* - 80ptEndless Spell:
8fold Sigal of Doom - 40ptBattalion:
Battle Regiment*Except the Corvus Cabal, which is in the post, all this stuff is assembled and painting has started. Can I get it all done before the weekend after next?
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5 hours ago, Grimrock said:
Yeah the nerf to the shrine is probably my biggest disappointment in the new book. All they needed to do was get rid of the undivided prayer or limit it to only chant/target based on the warshrine mark. They didn't need to go and do all of that AND nerf the rest of the prayers into the ground. +1 to charge for a single khorne unit? Who in their right mind thought that was a valid buff? If it was +1D6 maybe, but as is it's not even worth the risk of maybe taking a mortal wound from rolling a 1, let alone the fact that you could put curse or heal on it instead. It's a shame too because it's a nice big centerpiece model for the army, but someone writing the book must have been done dirty by it in one too many games.
There are a few odd nerfs in the book. Why do marauders with axe/shield get only one attack but marauders with flails get two attacks and hit on 3+ ? It would seem they should get the same number of attacks, axe/shield increases save, the flails increase to hit, as per all out attack/all out defense. Seems weird to me. Could be an error? But then the marauder horse get the same treatment, with flails getting one more attack. It is just odd!
Regarding the undivided and Khorne prayers, they could be easily fixed by changing them to all units of that mark within 18" get the effect. That would make those two prayers worth using. The other three prayers have to remain a single unit target, as the warshrine will reek havoc as an ally in other chaos lists if changed to all units with the appropriate keyword within range. Imagine all Nurgle units within 18" getting +1 to wound...gasp!!!
There were a lot of other nerfs. The reroll spells/abilities are gone. Bravery debuffs are gone. Most movement debuffs are gone. Summoning has gone, except the eye of the gods spawn/DP and ravagers half destroyed unit coming back. Healing has mostly gone, except watered down Despoilers ability.
To be fair, a lot of those are due to bringing the BT up to AOS3 standards. Most summoning and healing is going, replaced by rally/heroic actions/prayers. The rerolls are a bit OP in the new rules with limits on mods. The marauder charge was silly anyway, as was the Khorne DP blood slicked ground ability. Some things had to go.
Not sure why we lost the bravery debuffs, though. Why aren't people scared of us any more? Perhaps Archaeon launched a public relationships campaign to persuade the people of the Mortal Realms that we aren't really that evil and it is all really just Sigmarite propaganda that Slaves to Darkness are the bad guys? 😜
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So this was the email I sent in the end. Nothing may come of it but we need to let the rules team know what we would like to guide their future choices. Some warscrolls that people want to get a rewrite will have to wait until the next battletome. Subtle changes we might succeed in getting now, rewrites of warscrolls won't happen until then.
Hi GW team,I've been looking over the new battle-tome. Overall I find the new concepts to be exciting. I particularly like the Eye of the Gods rework. It is also good to see the main troop types get the boost they need. Warriors, Knights and Chosen were a bit weak in the last battle-tome. Generally, everything has been brought up to date.However there are a few minor tweaks that would make the new battle-tome more interesting beyond those three main units.Suggestions for Changes to Slaves to Darkness Battletome1/ Add Chaos Warshrine to list of units which can be given a banner.At present only Warriors, Chosen and Knights can carry a banner. For people wanting to run a barbarian/Darkoath themed list, they either need to include a heavy unit (and spoil the aesthetic) or forego the banner.The solution would be to grant the banner option to a suitable model which does fit in with the barbarian theme. The obvious choice is the Chaos Warshrine, since this is the Totem at the centre of tribal armies.2/ Add Sphiranx and Formoroid to list of eye of gods units along with mortals and Theridons.These two are a bit under whelming since they lost the monster keyword. Both could conceivably count alongside mortals as recipients of the Dark Gods' favour. Easiest way is to just add Mortal keyword back to their war-scroll (old war-scrolls both had that keyword).Note: Furies would not get Eye of God rolls, as the Gods despise them. Raptoryx should not get EoG either as they are not intelligent creatures.3/ Change the Centaurion Marshal's "Marshal the Legions" ability to include Furies as well as mortal undivided.The Legion of the First Prince furies really needs this boost as they got wacked hard with the allegiance rule changes. I really like the idea of Be'lakor bringing lots of undivided lessor demons. This rally improvement might keep them in as an attractive list build option.Final ThoughtsThe Legion of the First Prince could use some further development. As could the Darkoath theme, which is very popular. Perhaps we will see some improvements for these two sub-factions in future supplements or White Dwarf features? EG: could the four standard lessor demons become coalition for The Legion of the First Prince, rather than just allies? This way more demons can be included in the list. Maybe Darkoath could get Beast of Chaos monsters as a coalition choice? Surely there are other ideas to make these two much loved factions shine? -
I am going to send in an email to GW tomorrow with some changes I think could be made (I've done this before). I'll post them here to see what comments the suggestions might provoke.
Suggestions for Changes to Slaves to Darkness Battletome
1/ Add Warshrine to list of units which an be given a banner.At present only Warriors, Chosen and Knights can carry a banner. For people wanting to run a barbarian/Darkoath themed list, they either need to include a heavy unit (and spoil the aesthetic) or forego the banner.
The solution would be the given the banner to a suitable model which does fit in with the barbarian theme. The obvious choice is the warshrine, since this is the Totem at the centre of tribal armies.
2/ Add Sphiranx and Formoroid to list of eye of gods units along with mortals and theridons.These two are a bit under whelming since they lost the monster keyword. Both could conceivably count alongside mortals as recipients of the Dark Gods' favour. Easiest way is to just add Mortal keyword back to their war-scroll (old war-scrolls both had that keyword).
Note: Furies would not get Eye of God rolls, as the Gods despise them. Raptoryx should not get EoG either as they are not intelligent creatures.
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1 hour ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:
Both legal.
OK, cool. Can they do all of spell, unbind a spell/endless spell, chant prayer/banish invocation in the same hero phase? Is there any precedent for a wizard/priest in other lists before this? I wonder if this will get FAQ'ed as some point?
7 hours ago, Ravinsild said:For chaff I’m considering Furies, Untamed Beast and Darkoath Savagers.
...
Furies seem like good screens and able to retreat and annoy people is funny to me especially if they hit them with their hammers expecting to delete them and if I can just run away I can lite their big hitters potentially.Furies definitely look interesting. There is a guy who has been running them in the old Legion of the Dark Prince list, in 4 units of 12 furies. They work more like asymmetric objective contenders rather than as screens. But they can do both.
The basic idea is to keep all of those 4 units within 6" of their allocated objective. Just cower out of combat to stay alive. In the old Dark Prince list they got 1D3 healing on a 3+ each turn for each unit, and a 6+ ward save. Now they have a normal 6+ save and they will have to rely on the rally once 3" away from an opponent. At least each successful rally brings back 2 wounds in effect. Happens in Hero phase. I must try to stop forgetting to do it.
I only have 12 Furies at present, so can't build a list around them yet.
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12 hours ago, Beliman said:
Yep, it counts. When it's time to set-up this unit (and count as your drop), you say it's set-up in "the shadows" instead that on the table.
That's all.
OK, so they are drops, but empty drops. That is: opponent doesn't get to see where a unit goes, but has to deploy one of his each time.
How is this list as an example of including enough chaff?
It has 4 units of chaff, two being Corvus Cabal. I made the general an idolater, so the chaff are a bit more survivable and can do some mortal wounds. Combined with the Shackles spell, there should be a reasonable board control potential here.
Is is legal to have a wizard as a priest, I wonder? Also, I am confused at to whether wizard heroes can go the Conqueror's Crown.
Host of the Everchosen - Three Drops - 2000 points
Grand Strategy: TBD
Heroes:
Chaos Sorcerer on Manticore* - General, Trait: Idolator - 265pt
- The Conqueror's Crown, Mark of Nurgle
- Binding Damnation spell
- Curse PrayerChaos Lord on Karkadrak*- Mark of Slannesh - 220pt
Chaos Sorcerer* - Mark of Nurgle - 120pt
- Demonic Speed spellBattleline:
Chaos Knights* (10) - Banner of Slannesh, Mark of Slannesh - 460pt
Chaos Warriors* (10) - Banner of Nurgle, Mark of Nurgle - 220pt
Untamed Beasts* (9) - Mark of Nurgle - 90pt
Untamed Beasts* (9) - Mark of Nurgle - 90pt
Corvus Cabal (9) - Mark of Nurgle - 80pt
Corvus Cabal (9) - Mark of Nurgle - 80pt
Other Units:
Mindstealer Sphiranx* - 95pt
Behemoths:Chaos Warshrine* - Mark of Slannesh - 185pt
- Heal Prayer
Endless Spell:Eightfold Sigal of Doom - 40pt
Soulsnare Shackles - 50pt
Battalions:Battle Regiment*
TOTAL - 1995pt
Warhammer - The Old World
in Warhammer: The Old World
Posted
Me too.
The Dark Elves will be TOW only, as I can’t get excited about the Mortal Realms version of them. If only they weren’t in order. Actually, I did once consider the idea of running a good aligned army, for a moment or two. Then I quickly came to my senses and laughed at such a silly idea.
I have a sizeable Chaos collection. I have set aside a pile of unbuilt kits that I could use to built a Warriors of Chaos army. Some things could be used in both. EG: marauders. I suspect they will get 25mm square bases as they used to have. And they are 25mm round in AoS. It doesn’t matter which base they are on outside of tournaments.
AoS Chaos Knights and Chosen both have Storm Cast helmets as trophies, so I would need different models for TOW. I wonder if there will be an alternative model released for these?