Vextol

I've always used nerf as 'make less effective' . If you hit someone with a baseball bat, it hurts. If you hit someone with a baseball bat wrapped in "nerf foam" it hurts way less. Ironically, people use the term "hit with the nerf bat" as a means of indicating they were weakened a lot... though... if you were hit with a "nerf bat" it shouldn't hurt that badly so I'd rather be hit with a nerf bat than hit with a bat and nerfed 😬 I like "nerf" when the effectiveness of a unit is reduced and "nerfed into the shadow realms" when a unit is ruined. Maybe we could say "Foam grand slam" if a unit is ruined. Keep those bat similies going.

Where are you seeing this? I want to know stuff!

👍 Removed nonsense. I'm hoping for official doubles rules more than anything!

Asked this elsewhere but it wasn't really appropriate so I'm giving it its own topic. Is an objective: 1. A point with a flat 6" circle around it 2. A point with a half dome 6" bubble around it 6. A point with 6" cylinder around it that extends upward to eternity Obviously the size can vary but the question still stands.

If I could recommend one thing, it would be that the surveys are more frequent, more targeted, and WAY shorter 😂 Edit: Removed nonsense.

I really hope they release the survey results (I don't know if they do). I hope a zillion people actually manage to fill it out😂 Edit: Removed nonsense.

The game definitely evolves and terminology changes definitely stick. The "reroll" change seems to be apparent. It definitely clears up confusion but I think rend is too rare and too valuable to begin with so hurting it at all is very dangerous. Edit: With the new khorne and fyreslayers books, the reroll wording is universal. This isn't a unit buff, it's a terminological change. It's a huge, questionably outlandish buff, especially for fyreslayers. Edit: Removed nonsense.

It's a buff, given. But I don't believe that this was a choice to make the rerolls "stronger". It just happened. I find it hard to believe that every "buff" that makes units stronger seems to be a "buff" that carries through conveniently to every new battletome just like I find it hard to believe that every "debuff" is a choice that happens to conveniently carry through to every new battletome. All 6+s are becoming "unmodified" and command abilities that are used in the combat phase always seem to kick off "at the start of the combat phase" with new battletomes. I would imagine that the Era of "reroll failed" is at its end just like new abilities getting off on 6+ are likely at their end. Its a natural evolution as the game continues to get fleshed out. When this year's storm cast book comes out I wouldn't be surprised if sequitors were either modified to account for the buff or their save was worsened or something. But I doubt there will be "failed" terminology going forward. And it does weaken rend, but I'd hardly say it's "removed". You still modify the save by 1 or more. It just weakens it a little. Honestly though, as mortal wounds become more prevalent (for better or worse) armies are more able to deal with these high save monsters.

I just hope we can agree both apparent options, double turn or alternating activation, are flawed and that the adoption of one over the other is not a solution itself without at least one or two other factors falling under consideration. Both sides make legitimate arguments. Whatever system is chosen CAN work, but neither will work well if they are implemented straight up. We have history to show this. Good to know! I really hope so. I agree with the update thing. How much discussion was there on how to deal with reroll and modifiers? Khorne and Fyreslayers battletomes both have statements like "reroll hits" instead of "failed hits". Obviously this is a way to battle the confusion about modifiers and reroll. A universal remove 'failed term' update would be fine with me and helps battle an unintentional but very real power creep that's really just a rules clarification. Edit: Removed nonsense.

But I'm rubber and you're glue! Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you! Edit: I can't believe I forgot to add it to the survey... I'm going to go back and take it again 😫. I'd love some fleshed out Doubles rules. It's the primary way my group plays and there aren't any real rules for it. Also, are hidden agendas a real thing now or just a "beta test"? I think fleshing out that system could have some really cool benefits to balance in a lot of ways. Even turn order could be addressed some. Obviously now it's just triumphs but that could be tweaked. Any external, non-dice mechanism has a lot of power to change the internal balance of the game. Lots of potential.

Edit: Removed nonsense.

I think the initiative system is the worst part of AoS. Makes it really hard for me to evaluate my play sometimes because I can't tell if I did anything wrong. I don't think the argument should be over which system is better. Picking either one alone is the wrong decision. It's such an important part of the game there needs to be SOMETHING else involved. A way to allow players to determine or alter turn order tactically/randomly and not purely randomly. I don't understand the previous conversation bit. Sorry. Must be a little daft 😲 Edit: Removed nonsense.

Unquestionably the #1 complaint I heard from every person I ever played with (for the considerable amount of time I also played fantasy) was that the player who went first had a huge advantage. In the situation where a 30 inch ranged unit is "blasting you to pieces" on a double turn, what would you be doing to survive that if they didn't have the double turn? Hiding? Buffing saves or getting heroes away? Running toward them at full speed! That army you describe (longstrikes) is not uncommon. It's a potent army because it's fast, hits hard and has enormous range. It is however low on wounds and models and is expensive. I've personally played against it a ton. It was tricky to deal with at first, especially given the very natural "bubble" desire of AoS but I found it didn't matter how the turns went. If my army couldn't handle it, that's all there was to it. If you are worried about getting shot to death, take the endless wall spell. It's usable by all! Force them to be somewhere they don't want to be. I think the double turn gets blamed for a lot of evils it's not responsible for. Getting blasted to pieces by shooting (especially long range shooting) is an inevitability and your opponent pays a high price for that capacity. For the longstrike double shoot they give up staunch defender. That's a big sacrifice. Double turn or no there are 5 rounds of being shot and you're almost certainly going to take 2 of them to the face. Whether that happens turn 2 and 3 or 2 and 4, the problem isn't going away. We do! Realms of beasts is really fun because I actually have a reason to use a carmine dragon 😁 Edit: Removed nonsense.

You're not going back far enough. I'm going back to fantasy days. We've done my turn your turn. It's bad. And yes, I agree about magic. That was my point. Magic was so weak before the double turn potential. It still struggles offensively which is why you only see long range spells or buffs most of the time. Nagash doesn't count... And to say shooting benefits more from the double turn... I have to disagree. You may feel better about yourself because less of your units die as quickly, but shooting definitely benefits from the ability to always be one step back from you. I'm very likely to get within 18 inches of you if I know you can't charge me. I'm much less likely to do that if I think you may get to move twice. Not to mention as a defender if you get any defensive spells off (the only consistent useful spells if I can't get a double turn) , you have to get them off two times. Edit: Removed nonsense.

I think Igougo would need serious help. Offensive wizards have finally come back into their own. That's down the tubes. Shooting would get an even bigger boost. I don't understand why people who worry about shooting are anti double turn. Get rid of it and now you just get shot incrementally at a distance you can't bridge instead of all at once with a chance of double moving. Slower melee units gets a swift kick to the groin. I feel like people don't remember how it was. There was this stupid standoff where everyone stayed at just enough of a distance that if you move, you have to make a ridiculous charge or else on my turn, I could move in and kill you. So combat was this weird little dance where everyone kind of waited for the other guy to mess up. All the while, wizards tried to inch in and the opposition just backed away or sideways a little. What did this lead to? Shooting armies. The only units that could do anything. Or crazy defensive armies that could take that first hit when you inevitably failed your charge. It's definitely a step backwards.

Ha! You picked the ONLY army that needs special consideration but even there, not really. You did nail the issue though. It potentially changes "nothing" while changing a ton at the same time. Isn't that the kind of rule change that we need? Something that at worst is the same and at best can completely change how initiative is handled in a much more tactical way? As you said, at very worst it's the same (and really only with idoneth). However, it's not really the same because now your opponent knows for sure you're throwing all 5 dice. They can guarantee themselves every first turn except the third if they want. Also, it's a nice buff to idoneth who rely THE MOST on a favorable initiative roll. Try it in a game mate! This wasn't my idea, so I can't claim credit. However, I've played 10 games (as of last night) using this, including with idoneth, and it's a really fun mechanic. I am SUPER anti house rules so it hurts me a little every time, but it really makes the experience more enjoyable.

Each player starts the battle with 5 'tactic dice' they can use to alter their initiative roll. Before each initiative roll, players choose in secret how many of their tactic dice they're going to roll along with their initiative die. Highest total wins. Each die can be used once per battle. Boom. You now have tactical control over turn order and haven't messed with the fundamentals of the game at all. Also, you can adequately prepare on BOTH sides to either get hit with the double turn or receive the double turn. Igougo completely changes the game. The game is in a really good place right now. Even balance wise I'm seeing a much better job (hearthguard berzerkers possibly excluded 🙄). If we go back to igougo with no creative way to fix the absolutely dreadful "first player wins" scenario, I'm worried everything will come undone... again... As for waiting forever, people play tournament games in like 1.5 hours. That's a max of 18 minutes of waiting assuming there's no save rolls and no combat. I wonder how people can ever paint their stuff if 18 minutes is enough to wear you down. If your opponent is taking forever, bring a chess timer. I love using a chess timer in my "long" games. Helps everyone focus.

Come on Seraphon battletome!!! I hate that it's either double turn OR igougo. I despise igougo. I remember it well in all its badness. Why does it have to be one or the other? I asked for a change to the mechanic. Not one or the other. Both are troublesome, igougo is definitely much worse in my opinion. Hate getting double turned? At least there's a chance. Now, we're going back to the world of winning because you went first. Please please don't do it GW. Try anything else first. Definitely on board with the digital battle tomes if you buy the books. That's just reasonable. Also, I think that we should have a battle tracker where we could add a "Win for XXX" on the community page. Some way to see how the overall war is going! 😀

I don't think alternating activation is the be all and end all. I've played games that kind of had it. I give it a meh. There's a lot of time spent moving things around and not getting a lot of combat. I like that the turn system basically guarantees that you will see some combat because the opposition can't always move away. Also, without serious reworks, alternation of any kind makes shooters very very strong. You can't get close enough before they move away again. Then you're getting shot and have made very little progress. I still think all you need to do is give the players some kind of control over initiative or an alternative benefit to choosing turn order if you win. It's no scroll or army reworks and easy enough to implement.

Played last night using the added mechanic that each player has a pool of 6 dice they can use throughout the game to modify any initiative roll. All I can say is that our group will never go back. It was SO much fun. I highly recommend everyone try it. It totally changed the way I felt about initiative and didn't change the game-play or mechanics really at all. No one's army was hurt even in the slightest and armies that benefited the most (Idoneth primarily) just got countered by having the opposition throw more dice at the most important initiative roll (basically, just making it even odds again). If you get double turned, you don't feel bad you just feel like you should have thrown more dice at it. Everyone I played with agreed and gave it glowing endorsements. Well done @JPjr. Second test: Played against khorne. Guy threw all 6 dice to guarantee back to back turn 1. Allowed me to win every initiative from that point on. Awesome game. I got smashed but it was because I had a terrible SCE army. Still loving the initiative! Adds an exciting element.

I don't get that "bored" feeling from waiting. I watch their moves, watch their dice, think how I'm going to react and talk to my opponent. For those of you whose attention span runs out in 20 minutes I think you may be playing the wrong game! It's a war game. They're slow. If the game had alternating turns I think I'd sell it. The double turn is an amazing balancing mechanism. It just needs to somehow be implemented tactically instead of randomly. This game, as it stands, CAN have alternating turns. I have played 6 or 7 games that had alternating turns just because 'dice' . You know the expected and almost certain outcome? The person who went first won. Ghosts of the past anyone? I would not jump on the end the double turn bandwagon so quickly. Unless the turn order can be influenced by the players, there will always be something "unfair" or "unfun" about it.

Yeah! Different than I was thinking but still a good idea. There's definitely a ton of really cool potential ideas that would help people feel better about the double turn but not get rid of it. Edit: I thought about it and I like your dice idea so much I'm going to implement it immediately. I don't know why they didn't always do that!

Well, in that case at least we're not DIFFERENT than we are now. 😬 But in seriousness, it's dangerous to dismiss the concept of something outright. Shooting was rough before. If the thought was "What could you possibly do to tame it? Best not try." it could still be crazy dominant. I know some people don't think there's a problem with the double turn. Some people didn't think there was a problem with shooting either. Either way, it's a devisive aspect of the game that should be looked at to some degree. Malign portents had some nice bits to help counter the double turn. I'd be good with a "Buff Table" where you could choose an army wide buff for going second. Take cover! - 1 to hit for shooting. Shield up! Universal reroll 1s to save. Again, not a rules writer here but there are options. Even if you had to roll for it so it wasn't guaranteed. You say "I'm taking the gamble. Might be really good or totally useless." It is a dice game after all.

To the necro - if someone legitimatly wanted to talk about double turns again I fear a slew of "Use the search!" and "it's been done to death!" so to that end, I'm pro res 😂 I was in camp anti-double turn and am still in camp anti-current double turn. However, my general opinion has changed. I'm not against the mechanic. I just think there needs to be a more measurable benefit of not taking it. Endless spells tried to address it a little and some scenarios help but it's still not quite enough. I think you need something even more measurable. If you win initiative AND go second, you get another point toward your score. Woah!! Settle down!! I know, maybe not a great option, but something. Something that makes going second sexy even if you have the potential of a double turn. I've played a lot of games of Sigmar and have never seen someone pass up an early double turn. Ever. Not once. I know there will be examples, but you'd be hard pressed to say it's common. That's my biggest problem with the double turn. Not its existence, but it's overuse. It needs a tweak like all things do occasionally, not to be removed completely.

Well geeze, I liked them. I mean, I'm sorry they're not big enough for someone who has a game room large enough that they literally have a DUNGEON door that enters into it 😂 At least now I know what and actual "problem" looks like. Seriously though, that is quite the collection! I also looked at those shelves and did in fact want them. It's a better system but as you mentioned it does come with a much steeper price tag.