Vextol

You're not going back far enough. I'm going back to fantasy days. We've done my turn your turn. It's bad. And yes, I agree about magic. That was my point. Magic was so weak before the double turn potential. It still struggles offensively which is why you only see long range spells or buffs most of the time. Nagash doesn't count... And to say shooting benefits more from the double turn... I have to disagree. You may feel better about yourself because less of your units die as quickly, but shooting definitely benefits from the ability to always be one step back from you. I'm very likely to get within 18 inches of you if I know you can't charge me. I'm much less likely to do that if I think you may get to move twice. Not to mention as a defender if you get any defensive spells off (the only consistent useful spells if I can't get a double turn) , you have to get them off two times. Edit: Removed nonsense.

I think Igougo would need serious help. Offensive wizards have finally come back into their own. That's down the tubes. Shooting would get an even bigger boost. I don't understand why people who worry about shooting are anti double turn. Get rid of it and now you just get shot incrementally at a distance you can't bridge instead of all at once with a chance of double moving. Slower melee units gets a swift kick to the groin. I feel like people don't remember how it was. There was this stupid standoff where everyone stayed at just enough of a distance that if you move, you have to make a ridiculous charge or else on my turn, I could move in and kill you. So combat was this weird little dance where everyone kind of waited for the other guy to mess up. All the while, wizards tried to inch in and the opposition just backed away or sideways a little. What did this lead to? Shooting armies. The only units that could do anything. Or crazy defensive armies that could take that first hit when you inevitably failed your charge. It's definitely a step backwards.

Ha! You picked the ONLY army that needs special consideration but even there, not really. You did nail the issue though. It potentially changes "nothing" while changing a ton at the same time. Isn't that the kind of rule change that we need? Something that at worst is the same and at best can completely change how initiative is handled in a much more tactical way? As you said, at very worst it's the same (and really only with idoneth). However, it's not really the same because now your opponent knows for sure you're throwing all 5 dice. They can guarantee themselves every first turn except the third if they want. Also, it's a nice buff to idoneth who rely THE MOST on a favorable initiative roll. Try it in a game mate! This wasn't my idea, so I can't claim credit. However, I've played 10 games (as of last night) using this, including with idoneth, and it's a really fun mechanic. I am SUPER anti house rules so it hurts me a little every time, but it really makes the experience more enjoyable.

Each player starts the battle with 5 'tactic dice' they can use to alter their initiative roll. Before each initiative roll, players choose in secret how many of their tactic dice they're going to roll along with their initiative die. Highest total wins. Each die can be used once per battle. Boom. You now have tactical control over turn order and haven't messed with the fundamentals of the game at all. Also, you can adequately prepare on BOTH sides to either get hit with the double turn or receive the double turn. Igougo completely changes the game. The game is in a really good place right now. Even balance wise I'm seeing a much better job (hearthguard berzerkers possibly excluded 🙄). If we go back to igougo with no creative way to fix the absolutely dreadful "first player wins" scenario, I'm worried everything will come undone... again... As for waiting forever, people play tournament games in like 1.5 hours. That's a max of 18 minutes of waiting assuming there's no save rolls and no combat. I wonder how people can ever paint their stuff if 18 minutes is enough to wear you down. If your opponent is taking forever, bring a chess timer. I love using a chess timer in my "long" games. Helps everyone focus.

Come on Seraphon battletome!!! I hate that it's either double turn OR igougo. I despise igougo. I remember it well in all its badness. Why does it have to be one or the other? I asked for a change to the mechanic. Not one or the other. Both are troublesome, igougo is definitely much worse in my opinion. Hate getting double turned? At least there's a chance. Now, we're going back to the world of winning because you went first. Please please don't do it GW. Try anything else first. Definitely on board with the digital battle tomes if you buy the books. That's just reasonable. Also, I think that we should have a battle tracker where we could add a "Win for XXX" on the community page. Some way to see how the overall war is going! 😀

I don't think alternating activation is the be all and end all. I've played games that kind of had it. I give it a meh. There's a lot of time spent moving things around and not getting a lot of combat. I like that the turn system basically guarantees that you will see some combat because the opposition can't always move away. Also, without serious reworks, alternation of any kind makes shooters very very strong. You can't get close enough before they move away again. Then you're getting shot and have made very little progress. I still think all you need to do is give the players some kind of control over initiative or an alternative benefit to choosing turn order if you win. It's no scroll or army reworks and easy enough to implement.

Played last night using the added mechanic that each player has a pool of 6 dice they can use throughout the game to modify any initiative roll. All I can say is that our group will never go back. It was SO much fun. I highly recommend everyone try it. It totally changed the way I felt about initiative and didn't change the game-play or mechanics really at all. No one's army was hurt even in the slightest and armies that benefited the most (Idoneth primarily) just got countered by having the opposition throw more dice at the most important initiative roll (basically, just making it even odds again). If you get double turned, you don't feel bad you just feel like you should have thrown more dice at it. Everyone I played with agreed and gave it glowing endorsements. Well done @JPjr. Second test: Played against khorne. Guy threw all 6 dice to guarantee back to back turn 1. Allowed me to win every initiative from that point on. Awesome game. I got smashed but it was because I had a terrible SCE army. Still loving the initiative! Adds an exciting element.

I don't get that "bored" feeling from waiting. I watch their moves, watch their dice, think how I'm going to react and talk to my opponent. For those of you whose attention span runs out in 20 minutes I think you may be playing the wrong game! It's a war game. They're slow. If the game had alternating turns I think I'd sell it. The double turn is an amazing balancing mechanism. It just needs to somehow be implemented tactically instead of randomly. This game, as it stands, CAN have alternating turns. I have played 6 or 7 games that had alternating turns just because 'dice' . You know the expected and almost certain outcome? The person who went first won. Ghosts of the past anyone? I would not jump on the end the double turn bandwagon so quickly. Unless the turn order can be influenced by the players, there will always be something "unfair" or "unfun" about it.

Yeah! Different than I was thinking but still a good idea. There's definitely a ton of really cool potential ideas that would help people feel better about the double turn but not get rid of it. Edit: I thought about it and I like your dice idea so much I'm going to implement it immediately. I don't know why they didn't always do that!

Well, in that case at least we're not DIFFERENT than we are now. 😬 But in seriousness, it's dangerous to dismiss the concept of something outright. Shooting was rough before. If the thought was "What could you possibly do to tame it? Best not try." it could still be crazy dominant. I know some people don't think there's a problem with the double turn. Some people didn't think there was a problem with shooting either. Either way, it's a devisive aspect of the game that should be looked at to some degree. Malign portents had some nice bits to help counter the double turn. I'd be good with a "Buff Table" where you could choose an army wide buff for going second. Take cover! - 1 to hit for shooting. Shield up! Universal reroll 1s to save. Again, not a rules writer here but there are options. Even if you had to roll for it so it wasn't guaranteed. You say "I'm taking the gamble. Might be really good or totally useless." It is a dice game after all.

To the necro - if someone legitimatly wanted to talk about double turns again I fear a slew of "Use the search!" and "it's been done to death!" so to that end, I'm pro res 😂 I was in camp anti-double turn and am still in camp anti-current double turn. However, my general opinion has changed. I'm not against the mechanic. I just think there needs to be a more measurable benefit of not taking it. Endless spells tried to address it a little and some scenarios help but it's still not quite enough. I think you need something even more measurable. If you win initiative AND go second, you get another point toward your score. Woah!! Settle down!! I know, maybe not a great option, but something. Something that makes going second sexy even if you have the potential of a double turn. I've played a lot of games of Sigmar and have never seen someone pass up an early double turn. Ever. Not once. I know there will be examples, but you'd be hard pressed to say it's common. That's my biggest problem with the double turn. Not its existence, but it's overuse. It needs a tweak like all things do occasionally, not to be removed completely.

Well geeze, I liked them. I mean, I'm sorry they're not big enough for someone who has a game room large enough that they literally have a DUNGEON door that enters into it 😂 At least now I know what and actual "problem" looks like. Seriously though, that is quite the collection! I also looked at those shelves and did in fact want them. It's a better system but as you mentioned it does come with a much steeper price tag.

Yeah, these were very generic but they work great. They don't seal so they aren't good for formal collections like coins, cards , comics or "dust free" things but they are amazing display cabinets and the construction is definitely acceptable. They are NOT adjustable though so what you see is what you get. Mine are begging for the rest of my sylvaneth and Idoneth forces to be finished 😂

Ikea. It's amazing. I needed something that fit archaon because he's like a million feet tall. These were absolutely perfect. And like $60. So, for anything else they're kind of expensive but for Warhammer it's like nothing 😂

Definitely hit it with lizards, nurgle, Idoneth (by the end of the month), Stormcast and khorne. Night haunt , sylvaneth and kharadrons on the fence.

Worse for eels because they lose the retreat and charge turn in the tides

Yeah but...with no buffs at all, a unit of morrsarr does more damage on the charge (by a lot), they aren't monsters, they have 2 more wounds, they move faster, and deal mortal wounds. Alloplexes feels like a tax in the Corps. Given, supreme Lord of tides does help this, but spears only loses a little bit of ground on the bite per command point spent and the buffed fanged maws and lashing tails of the guard are enough to outperform the buffed hooks and fins of the alloplexes. Adding attacks to these outweighs the potential benefit of the increased attacks on the bites. If you're worried you can't charge the enemy, then yes, alloplexes will outperform on damage but you're probably in a bad way. Fuethan actually makes eels worse so it's a good one to pick for eel-badness. I think alloplexes feel like they're "missing" something. That's why I want a rend on their shooting. As a side note, I'm currently painting 3 of them. Don't get me wrong, I love these guys. But I can't defend that they are a good competitive choice. I love the models and I think they're fun and fully support anyone who wants to field them. If I ever played against alloplexes when someone had a box of eels they could field, I would buy them a beer.

I don't think it's that they're not good. I think they're not worth it. You're almost always better going for eels point for point. The typical response would be to make the eels cost more. BOO. I think the aloplex should be tweaked instead. Maybe toss a rend on those shooting attacks. That way, the major melee units don't canabalize each other and instead, alloplexes can serve a different function.

Mad forgeworld love here. More if they give back my 3+ on the GUO....but still a lot of love

Haha! It was fight! Not a GW typo then but a general typo 😂 That basically clears it up for me. Thanks!

I don't necessarily agree with the notion "must" being "if possible" because it would call every other "must" in question. I always read must as a definite must unless a warscrolls specifically says they don't have to. You cannot fight unless you attack because you must attack to be able to fight. That makes attacking integral to activating because fighting is integral to activating and attacking is integral to fighting. It's the big difference in our logic. I do not read an implicit "if possible". 1. Interesting and something I hadn't considered. That's a legitimate question in any form actually. I think the intent behind the rule was that if you killed a charged unit with a different unit, you could pile into a second unit with the one that charged so as not to waste the charge. I've never considered what would happen if your second pile in didn't actually make it to anything. 2. I suppose yes but I know this community at large would disagree. If not, I'm invisioning a stardrake with the cloak in the house that let's you attack in the hero phase. If you had enough stuff in combat, he could easily wait until the end, eat 6 people (and break cohesion killing a ton) and never himself be attacked. 3. I considered this actually. I believe what would occur would be the first player whose turn it was when there were only soul cage units left in the field would get to attack. Not super clear though. I think I'm on the fence right now. I don't like the idea of making a unit lose all their attacks. It's one thing to make someone attack last, it's another to take 100% of their combat capability simply with some tricky activation

Actually, it does. It is the transitive property of equality. If a unit is eligible, this means it is able fight. If a unit is able fight, it must attack. Therefore, a unit that is eligible must attack. If a unit cannot attack, it isn't eligible to fight because eligibility hinges on the necessity to attack. If the wording said "If you pick a unit to fight, it first piles in, and then the models in the unit can attack" then it would work. But the presence of the "must attack" means a unit that has been hit with soul cage cannot fight and a unit that cannot fight isn't eligible to be activated.

According to the core rules, if you fight with a unit (aka activate) you must attack. Under section 5: Fighting. I don't think you could choose the soul cage unit to 'activate' though. You can only choose an eligible unit. As the opposition hasn't attacked with all their options yet, your soul cage unit still isn't eligible. If they were your last unit, you'd be forced to pass Thanks to the FAQ (page 5 under "attacking"), your opponent cannot also pass if they have eligible units to fight with. So what you end up with is that you will continue to pass until all their units have fought. Then, when it's your turn, your unit would finally be eligible and could fight. I think what's happened here that's causing the confusion is a simple typo. Most likely, soul cage should have said "...that unit cannot fight..." and not "...they unit cannot attack...". Edit: It was pointed out that the real rule is actually "fight".

Almost done with my Iron Clad. Need to base (and finish the mountain underneath ). So far this is the least 'matching' army I've ever built. Literally every model is just a "lets go for this this time!". It's pretty funny looking on the field. They don't call them 'clowns' for nothing!