Malakree

I'm running a list with 2 blocks of 15 ardboys this weekend although it will have 2 MK's with it. Depending on what else you have to go with will depend on what list you're looking at. This was posted on the previous page. Personally I'd be looking at Da Choppas for a single Cabbage Ardboy heavy list running 15/5/5 with 10/10 brutes.

Because I'm lazy and didn't bother to change them on warscroll builder.

Redeploy explicitly states that the unit cannot shoot later in the turn. So they can receive the CA (as per the FAQ) but then cannot shoot. There are no such restrictions around charging.

Why would you not be able to charge, there are no restrictions on redeploy which would stop you..?

Personally I view big Waaagh as the magic orientated faction which benefits from cross buffing abilities. Something like this would be my starting point. Allegiance: Big Waaagh!- Grand Strategy:- Triumphs:LeadersGobsprakk, The Mouth of Mork (300)Orruk Warchanter (115)Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)Wardokk (80)Wurrgog Prophet (150)Battleline30 x Savage Orruks (495)- Chompas- Reinforced x 210 x Orruk Brutes (320)- Pair of Brute Choppas- Reinforced x 110 x Orruk Brutes (320)- Pair of Brute Choppas- Reinforced x 1ArtilleryBeast-skewer Killbow (130)Total: 2000 / 2000Reinforced Units: 4 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 163Drops: 9 It gives you actual magical might when you get the +1cast. Two big units of brutes which love +1/+1 and hand of gork on 30 savage orruks is as hilarious as it is rude. Between the various different clans the magical prowess really isn't to be underestimated.

To give my opinion on each of them. All out attack, defence, inspiring presence, snb and rally all just work when triggered. Overwatch works on multiple units but they must target the charging unit. Imo they ALSO must be within 9". Redeploy works but can only target units that are within 9" of the enemy unit which triggered it. The 6" run applies to 3 units in range but doing so declares that all 3 will run. The charge reroll can target 2 additional units when it is first triggered but you have to choose it then. Having done so you don't need to reroll as it says you "can" reroll the charge. EDIT: This is nothing to do with literal definitions of the rules and more my expectations of how TOs will rule in tournaments.

I've already been to an event and nobody complained about me using AoA and AoD on 3 units.

As @Shirtripper said most independent lgs wont care to much. For GW tournaments or those very closely affiliated your best bet would be to either convert a different model you like into a rogue idol or get someone else to do it if your conversion skills aren't up to it. One of the spirits of the mountain or treelord possibly even a mega if you do it well? Not sure what would be the appropriate size.

Yeah and one who you don't mind having in the middle of your army unlike a weirdnob or warchanter.

I seriously considered it but the weirdnob is just so questionable and I wouldn't want to risk an MK without a ward save, might actually be a solid choice on a footboss with arcane tome. Maybe something like this...

I really thought about it but I'm not sure I can cut down to that few bodies...whenever I get the next 15 Brutes finished I'm guna try a single cabbage list which I think has space for one.

I just used IP every turn to ignore battleshock on 3 units, completely negated the issue. Problem with the double mount trait is that it's worse than the 2nd artefact. So unless you are taking 2 warlord/entourage you can't get it, that means you're spending ~1.4k points on heroes though which is sacrificing a lot of board presence for it.

I played it slow pushing the ardboys forward not going for the alpha. Bloodtoofs was there to make them battleline, wasn't terrible but only used it once haha.

Also played a game tonight at club. I was running this list. Allegiance: Ironjawz- Warclan: Bloodtoofs- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs:LeadersMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)**- General- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa- Artefact: Armour of Gork- Mount Trait: Fast 'UnOrruk Warchanter (115)*Orruk Warchanter (115)*Battleline15 x Orruk Ardboys (480)**- Reinforced x 215 x Orruk Ardboys (480)**- Reinforced x 23 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*- Pig-iron ChoppasCore Battalions*Warlord**Battle RegimentAdditional EnhancementsArtefactTotal: 2450 / 2000Reinforced Units: 4 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 138Drops: 5 He was legion of blood with nefrata. The main goal was to test the units of 15 ardboys, holy gods are they good. I deployed the units such that the boss and a banner were actually at the back of the unit so they would be 3" away from anything which charged. Managed to rally twice, once for 6 ardboys the other for 7. Was absolutely disgusting and it was turn 4 before he managed to kill either unit which let me dominate the board by tying him down in combat while the cabbages had free reign, was weird to outlast a death army... I also completely forgot to use either the warlord cp or the general command trait 😅 The 10 Brutes really were overkill and I much prefer this list to the previous, you just don't need the 3rd hammer with 2 cabbages.

It's been legal for ages. Just have to be careful of a redeploy on the retreat.

Yes.

My point being that you hit them hard and fast then use the bloodtoofs to mess up their ability to respond properly. Everything after this assumes you are NOT bloodtoofs since if you are GGs trump everything. The double cabbage being thin on the ground is why I would run it with lots of ardboys rather than with a block of brutes. You simply don't need the 3 hammers and can't even support them properly with your WCs. What you need is the ability to be able to pick your moment rather than being forced to act straight away, for that ardboys are and always will be your best option. Something like this gives you the presence to be able to push forward onto the board while threatening counter engages with the MK's even in your opponents turns if they aren't careful. Not only that but the ability to rally the Ardboys back means that half killing a unit is really dangerous for your opponent. If you position a unit of 15 in a T shape it's possible to have the front which are within 3" killed off while the back is now able to rally. Obviously it'll be a little awkward to do properly but the threat of it is massive.

I mean, I was pretty clear when I gave my rundown that I think in Bloodtoofs I'd run GG's, in Da Choppas I'd run Brutes and that in Ironsunz I'd run my 2 cabbages with primarily Ardboys. Personally I don't think you can run 2 cabbages and a unit of 10 Brutes as you have neither the anvil required to pick your moment and the Brutes can't hard initiate like the cabbages meaning you hit in 2 waves. So the only time I'd run a unit of 10 Brutes is if I'm running only a single cabbage in which case I'd be running multiple units in Da Choppas. The only time you would be comparing vanilla Brutes vs vanilla GG's is in Ironsunz and at that point you're actually looking at counter engage so the anvil becomes way more important, hence Ardboys. EDIT: I realise this isn't possible for everyone but I would 100% run a second cabbage before I ran GG's outside of Bloodtoofs and their value in Bloodtoofs comes from the allegiance which lets you go over the top then tie down key enemy targets. Bloodtoofs Alphastrikes. Da Choppas does heavy infantry wave. Ironsunz does counter engage/initiation. It should be pointed out that a lot of my reductionism comes out of the fact that MK's are now so unbelievably good. If you want a generic hammer then you take an MK over everything else, I would seriously consider fielding 3 in a tournament for a fun list which isn't 100% gimped. EDIT2:

How many units of pigs can you WC buff at once.

The thing about brute heavy lists is with da choppas you can buff multiple units of them at once. 3x10 brutes all with +1 damage from only one WC is terrifying in a way GGs never will be. The -2 rend and free +1 to hit vs big stuff guarantees they mince things with 4+ wounds while they flat out deny single wound models from holding objectives. If you don't think that's important with horrors being a thing you are overlooking one of the strongest lists in the game atm. Sure they don't run with 2 cabbages but there is a reasonable 1 cabbage list and potential for a footslogging list. Brutes are solid as hell right now.

Just checked. The pigs don't get +1/+1 on charge but they are 3+/3+ now instead of 4+/4+. So the charge bonus was just added as standard. Also I never used the spears so forgot about that. On the other side flat mortals on the charge has way better synergies with the bloodtoofs buff while the spears were competing against the +1 attack on axes anyway. Overall I'd say they actually got better not worse.

Goregruntas weren't touched at all offence wise. The Ironjawz Waaagh! is enormous for them as having 2 rend on the choppas and 1 on the boars is dirty as hell. Add onto that the bloodtoofs ability and if I had 18 painted I would be taking them to the next event. I think part of the problem is that once you go bloodtoofs they are so much better that you really only want to be taking 2 units of 5 ardboys for home protection and even then 3gg's fill that role fine.

I used it once but I only had 1 unit of 10 and the 2 units of 5 spent all their time screening my objectives etc. The one time I did use I got 3 of the 4 back, it almost entirely negated a round of shooting they had taken.

I did a tournament this weekend with Ironjawz, went 3-2 but both losses were the 2nd day on table 1 then 2. So matchups Survival of the Fittest vs 40 Irondrakes in greywater fastness. He was forced to go first so I couldn't just take and sit the objectives for the game. Got the double and won. (27-8) Tectonic Interference vs beastclaw. I easily dismantled him and had tabled him by the end of 2. Ironsunz command ability absolutely won me the game when I was able to charge the MK's in during his turn 1 despite being forced to go first. (31-6) Savage Gains vs Thunderlizard. MK's siezed his home objective while I held both my own and a side one, then pinned him on the last middle objective for 4turns. The game was a massive score fest which ended (49-26) in my favour. Feral Foray vs Thunderlizard. I was able to apply a ton of pressure early but due to a late night the night before I misplayed my first turn a bit then my second MK failed to kill a stegadon. I held two of his objectives turn 2 but by turn 3 I'd lost it and was unable to do more than stall. ~(19-25) The Vice vs 30 Irondrakes+Stardrake in Excelsis. We postured turn 1, I took prio turn 2 and was able to open his defences. Lost prio turn 3 and the game was over. I knew I needed to force it into the turn 3 priority roll off, if I'd won it I would have won the game. ~(18-26) Overall I finished 13th with the 3rd highest VP total. Unfortunately I was the top of the 3-1 going into 5th round so had to face the bottom of the 4-0 who finished 2nd. I think had I faced any of the other 3-1's I would have been able to beat them comfortably as there were no seraphon or Irondrakes. As it's a WS10 event softscores play a reasonable part in the final standing which really tanked me down the rankings. On only win/loss/VP I'd have been top 3-2s. Overall opinions. Cabbages - I love them, the two of them were the real powerhouses of the list and are absolutely horrendous to face. The Armour of Gork+Fast 'Un was an awesome combo, not just for the 6++ ward but the +1 to hit was massive aswell. Brutes - Man they hit hard, the only time they ever bounced was against a stardrake with +3 to save when they had no +1 damage (I really had no choice but to charge there ). Ardboys - These were actually the workhorses of the list. Their damage is ok but they are tanky for their points, they fill the frontline role amazingly. Goregruntas - I found these to be mediocre. Only having 3 and them not being in bloodtoofs made them far less useful. As I had 2 cabbages and 10 Brutes they never received a damage buff so didn't hit amazingly hard. I'd say they are reasonable as medium cav. Battletraits etc. Mighty Waaagh! Leader was never relevant. It's to short range and due to my list I was always at 3" charges on my waaagh! turn anyway. I was also very CP starved a lot so I think the double MD would have been wasted aswell, would probably go for either the CP generation or the MW impact hits. Fast 'Un+Armour of Gork is the ******, this and amulet of destiny will be my loadout whenever I run double cabbage. Ironsunz is just what you'd expect, it's a huge threat that's also quite CP hungry. The main thing is it makes your opponents play around it so ironically you almost never have to actually spend the CP. Ironjawz Waaagh! is so good it's unreal. I cannot stress how good this is. For that one turn you will go through everything like butter, the cabbages just eat everything and anything. List Building My main takeaway was that the double cabbage+brutes was both to expensive of a threat and didn't work well together. The Brutes weren't fast enough to hit with the cabbages so I pretty much always had 2 waves rather than 1 which combined with only 2 WC buffs meant one of the 3 didn't have the buff. In the future I'd say if I'm going double cabbage it's with Bloodtoofs or Ironsunz Ardboys. On the other hand Brutes I'd only run in Da Choppas with a single cabbage. These would be the 3 that initially would be the basis for each clan although the Ironsunz one is unclean points distribution wise I'm not sure how I'd shift it.

So damage results. There is a slight approximation due to how I do the mortal wounds on the tool, end result is that gutripperz/boltboyz could theoretically do twice their maximum damage but neither of the graphs gets close. Also this is using the 12" shots of the boltboyz, the method I use wouldn't work properly with the 24" attack. This is of course comparing the melee attacks of gutripperz vs the shooting attacks of hobgrotz/boltboyz, which avoids the combat priority and doesn't put them at risk of retaliation. In addition the 20 shots of the hobgrots come from 2 seperate units so can be more appropriately split if required. Not to mention the opponent can only inflict a maximum of 10 wounds not 20.