Malakree

One of the big things I think should be done is raising the Mawkrusha fists to -3. AIt's shocking some of the things which have the same or better rend. Especially whrn you consider the levels of blunt force trauma involved, one of the traditional ways of dealing with super heavy armour. I'd also like to see a buff for the brute boss choppa. It is a really cool weapon but is just shockingly bad compared to the klaw/Smasha.

I have no intention of working at gw. Besides, I couldn't smoke enough weed to come up with some of the stuff they have put in the recent battletomes. ?

They act as a very cheap screen, space blocking or objective claiming unit. EDIT: Honestly though we could do with a proper warscroll update. 5+ save vs mortal wounds - Ironjawz Allegiance. Brutes and Ardboys raised to bravery 7. Brutes and Megabosses save raised to 2+ Ardboys, GG's and Warchanters raised to 3+ Cabbage fists, Smasha, Boss Choppa, Gore-Choppa and Rip-tooth Fist all raised to -3 rend Maw-Krusha damage table only reduces move by 1" per reduction. All other weapons with -1 rend increased to -2 All weapons with 0 rend, other than the GG's tusks, increased to -1 rend On unmodified charge roll of 6+ GG's get -1 rend, at unmodified roll of 9+ get -2 rend and 2 damage Remove the Ironfist We'd actually be the Irontide we are supposed to be again. Hard to kill, slow as all hell and really painful when we get there.

@Durnaxe basically yes. The worst part about AoS2 is when they made all the summons free and then "appropriately costed them" which is to say they didn't. It's why leading up to AoS2 I was really hoping for an update for all our warscrolls, things like Brutes having bravery 6 is just awful. It's one of the big reasons I don't want to give up my Bloodtoofs. Ironjawz is a First Era Army which hasn't been updated, that's our big problem. In the same period of time stormcast have had 2 new battletomes and 3 new chambers opened (read new models). The power creep over that time has been enormous and we haven't had it. I would say the worst thing, for you, is that Ironjawz sucks at lower points values. Really REALLY sucks. The Mawkrusha and battalions are really key, being able to get allies to shore up our weakness is pretty key. At 1k for example you don't even get enough units to reliably 6 units in the Waaagh! As I said 9 months ago there are some huge intrinsic flaws with their approach to game design and new armies which have heavily hindered it. Mass Teleporting being one of them, worst part is that in 40k you at least have the rule which says "at least half your army, rounded up, must start on the board". @Raoiley FoV is frenzy of violence, it's the warchanters +1 to hit. I might try to squeeze a gorefist in instead of the ironfist, it's a bit awkward but gives much more usability. It is a really slender list though, you need everything to do it's part. Incidentally not being able to get The Big G in a megabattalion is an amazing example of how GW has just not taken into account all the new armies, realistically the following list should be possible and the points costs of our units should allow it. 160 Brutes 140/380 Ardboys 120 GG's 400 Maw-Krusha 520 Gordrakk Those kind of points values would be far more inline with the other GA's.

How are people finding the Brutes? Are they actually working/important. Building on the pinning which came up with @Superninja is it potentially worth dropping them to instead pick up a Gorefist and go for the objective game. Thinking something along the lines of this kind of list. If the opponent gives us first turn we can use the Gorefist to rush across the board and pin their line while the rest of our army moves to grab objectives. It also gives us a great screen if we need it with the huge bases on the Goregruntas. Should the opponent attempt to rush across the board we can use the 15" movement to retreat out of combat then threaten the points they have just disengaged from. It's far more defensive than a traditional IJ list with a focus around the objective game instead.

You don't need the waaagh! Running to abuse it, definitely helps but isn't needed. The two options to carry SoJ are a megaboss (either type) or a warchanter. You stack FoV on them then delete a monster/hero. With 2 warchanters it triggers on a 4+ to hit. If it's on a megaboss then as they kill heroes with it they gain more base attacks with that weapon. With a warchanter the triggers will also trigger their extra attack on the same value. That's it. Warchanter and FoV. It lets is get through things like archaon, treelords, Phoenix, stardrakes etc. All the stuff which normally bends us over. Considering that warchanter are cheap and good in their own right it's a very easy buy in which the opponent MUST deal with. The big example would be 3 WC one with the SoJ, at 240 points your opponent now has to focus an 80 point warchanter over brutes or your MK. Even if your opponent kills the SoJ you still have 2 FoV buffs to throw around which is how many are run in a standard list anyway!

I'd drop the weirdnob and Swords. You're sorting the problem he solves with the spear chukkas I think, split the Ardboy units, add a warchanter and 5 cave squigs. There's also the more extreme choice of taking 3 spear chukkas. Honestly though I'm thinking we need to be abusing the SoJ, it's the one ridiculous combo we have for removing those horrific monsters we normally can't deal with. Either on a footboss or on the Cabbage.

I had quickly been coming to this same position. It feels like we would be better off switching to GA:destro with grots. This just feels like it would be a stronger version of a pure IJ list. That's if you would even take the brutes which tbh I might not Just put even more beef on the board and give a better target for the double WC buff if the Footboss isn't deleting something that turn. Worst part is I'm actually only short 1 spear chukka from this....

Actually we are using them in 5s and stacking waaaghs to abuse the brute boss klaw+Smasha. That said 10+fov is totally reasonable if you aren't doing mass waaagh abuse.

Yes it's a big advantage. Against a lot of lists you can get that anyway by grabbing just 1 battalion. To me the problem is that all our stuff is overdosed...

It's personal preference I think. I honestly love the +2 bravery more than I can say, while the +1 charge really plays into what we already have going for us. If I had to make one big distinction it's the random nature of Ironsunz which puts me off. It should just be a -1 to hit in the first turn with no random.

I wonder if we need to be shifting gears into something like this instead. It puts a ridonculous amount of wounds on the table and can potentially being back 180 for round 2. Plus it gives us the units we need to both protect our own objectives and challenge our opponents. I'm not sure about the weirdo but honestly those 120 points are hard to spend, it gives us a wizard for the scenarios which need them, an extra ij to fish for the extra move and with 94 forums on the board his +2 should be easy to maintain. Brutish cunning is a nasty trick imo and the megaboss should only see combat when you want to delete something with the SOJ.

It depends on the scale you are playing them at. The only time I've played xwing it was 100 points I think. That's the equivalent of ~500 in AoS. AoS/40k are far more mathematically and tactically complicated than many other similar games just because of the huge quantity of dice rolled. That said there are definite tier lists like I outlined before and we aren't in the T1. Let me see if I can grab that post to copy/paste, found it I think I'd actually put 4 tiers now. T0 being the ones who can consistently place high on the tables in tournaments, currently that would be Nurgle, LoN, DoK etc. T1 is then the ones which can compete with the T0 lists reliably but don't have the overwhelming power. They would be your classically "strong" end of the armies and can place up the tables but don't do it consistently. T2 is your 3/5 armies. Solid good armies who play the game honestly. T3 is your utter garbage armies who have done amazingly well if they go 3/5. The distinction primarily is at the T0 and everything else divide. T0 will reliably smash anything which is T2 or T3 to the point that even with incredible luck you will probably still lose vs them. T1/2 are really only separated by their win rate against T0 armies. Currently Ironjawz are top end of T2. We do very well against the T1 armies and the reason we aren't in it is because the T0 armies smash us reliably.Here's the other posts I made in the thread in which I outlined the broad problems facing the game, why T0 armies exist and some totally minor waving of my own flag..... Edit: Anyone else notice that they have our allegiance ability, which was to strong, cut and paste to thunderscorn beasts of chaos. Honestly we destruction needs it's rules update yesterday.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/ https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_Basesizes_en.pdf Page 2, bottom right. It's really important for anything which applies negative modifiers on any rolls. For example, if you attack a hero who has -hit with brutes it can be really horrible. ie. You attack a Nurgle hero who has -2 to hit with brutes. You can reroll 1s, 2s and 3s. However a 4 and 5 miss but can't be rerolled. Obviously an unmodified 6 is always a hit. EDIT: It's why I brought it up. It's a very obscure rule which doesn't come up that often. The effects of it are also quite arcane, as someone who played MTG back when the stack and stack manipulation was a key skill I've dealt with similar stuff there. So yeah this is kind of a tame version but if you aren't a hardcore maths gamer (known as a Spike in MtG) then it's not intuitive at all.

This is something which really ruins the game at the moment. They need to change it so that you can't deploy outside of your own deployment zone on turn 1, like they introduced with 40k. There are ways around this depending on the mission. If it's Knife to the Heart just ignore the mission and go for kill points, we can't win that mission. Couple of things regarding this, one is that we suck at trying to remove this kind of unit. Generally you want to pin one end of the unit with Ardboys and tie the whole unit down so that your other stuff can move more freely. It's also really important to know how Modifiers and Rerolls stack up in terms of Ordering vs RRAll. Rerolls Occur before Modifiers. This means if your opponent has reroll all failed saves then they can only reroll saves which are unsuccessful BEFORE rend. This means that rend of any kind absolutely Fs them in the A. For example. They have RRafs and a 4+ base. You attack with -1 Rend. Your opponent rolls a 4 to save. Before modifiers a 4 is a successful save roll. Your opponent can only reroll unsuccessful save rolls. Your opponent cannot reroll his save roll of a 4. The window to reroll saves ends. You then apply the -1 modifier. This save roll now becomes unsuccessful. The attack is successful and damage is dealt. This is SUPER important for dealing with things like Chaos Warriors, Sequitors. This is fixable by correct tailing during charges. Waaagh! only requires that the unit be within, not wholly within, this means if a tiny fraction of one models base is in range the whole unit counts as in range. So when you charge, you move the unit so that there is a tail stringing out towards the Megaboss. Then at the start of the combat phase they are in range. Then when you activate the unit you use the pile-in move to shuffle the unit and maximise your models in base contact. This generally means your cabbage needs to be in the centre of the field but due to his base size and the fact it's 15" means you are hitting a massive area, 36", around the middle of the board. With proper tailing you can hit all but the absolute extremities of an opponents line. I'm really feeling this, I think you need a unit of 30 Ardboys for him to go with, this precludes the use of Bloodtoofs is what I'm finding. Honestly I think our mega-battalions might have to be no magic. Yep, sucks ass. See my above about no deploying outside of your deployment area on turn 1. Running, Running constantly. That's how I do it. Then later in the game I put Ironjawz moves on them to push them further up the board. Remember you can run during that move. Also if you are using Bloodtoofs you get +1 to run rolls from it (the rule is +1 to run and charge rules). Power Creep is real and GW has done nothing to fix it. Honestly some of the older armies need a big cost reduction. Morathi for example is 480 points, Spirit of Durthu is 380, Great Unclean one is 340. Exaulted Great Unclean one is 480. Imo Maw Krushas should be about 380 points, Gordrak around 480, Brutes at maybe 160, Ardboys at 80 (for 5)/400(for 30) and GG's at 130. The footboss should also be 120 and Weirdnob at 100. Maybe I'm swinging a little low but definately having Ardboys available in units of 5 alone would be such a huge improvement.

As a slight aside, I just realised that this is now a legal list for anyone who wants a laugh.

@DerZauberer I'm glad you had a good game and learned quite a bit. I agree our lists are a little awkward at the moment but the experimentation is cool to see ? I really do think they need to introduce the 40k rule that you can't deploy outside of your deployment zone in the first turn. Would do wonders to stop some of the stupid teleporting rubbish which is everywhere now.

Aye we did, because of how I play it's very rare for my MK to die first. I am leaning towards 3/4 with the footboss carrying SoJ. If I had the warchanters is run 4 of them with a weirdnob and a 20point endless. Give one of them SoJ for that sweet 2+ deletion. I think if I was to go for the 30 ardboys I might swap to shyish or aqshy for the ranged MW options.

So I got to play a game tonight at my local club. It's the guys blackout list, a strong mixed order list with morathi and double phoenix, and it was useful for testing the spells. Endless Spells I found I wasn't actually that keen on the Pendulum, it was cool but more of a one off. It did 3 MW to morathi in human form and like 4 to a phoenix but then just wandered off. The emerald lifeswarm was a bit of a weird one. It healed 4 wounds onto the cabbage, which would have mattered had I done my ordering properly, but I play to defensively with the cabbage for it to matter. I was also terrified of morathi getting heals off it. I didn't get to test the flaming skull because I just didn't try to cast it. I actually think this would have been better than the pendulum because it isn't one then done and my opponent has incentives to try and keep it round the battle area. Overall, not keen on the pendulum. Could see a use for the Lifeswarm just not in my list, a double cabbage+fungoid could abuse it so hard. Still need to see about the skull. On not having the Cogs. I actually did feel it quite a bit more than I expected, it meant that I hit in two waves rather than one which greatly reduced my effectiveness. I'm still not sure it's mandatory but it does make the list less brittle for when you ****** up. Hero Stuff etc. Aetherquartz Broach is still disgusting, getting 4 waaagh! for 1 cp on my turn 1 was pretty dirty. I did feel the lack of Prophet though, again it makes those explosive turns all the more disgusting and the list is so dependent on them. You need to cripple your opponent on the turn you explode. I still haven't found a good use for the third relic, Broach+Mirrored Curiass are great but with the nerf to lens of refraction everything else is mediocre. Our own relics are pretty ****** as well so it just feels wasted. No second Warchanter is a big loss. Everyturn I found myself wishing I had that second Frenzy of Violence. Two weirdnobs is nice however as it was pointed out (I think by @Backbreaker) I struggled to maintain even the +1 past the first turn. Without the +2 the weirdnob just isn't worth 120 points. So overall I think the 2nd weirdnob just doesn't make the cut, just to hard to fit into a Bloodtoofs list and still have the models to make it worth the points. On a related note I think the Broach/Prophet/Cogs is a single package which you include or don't, each of them enhances the others in a none linear fashion. However if you do go for the combo you are a one turn explosion army. You must get everything in, then cripple your opponent. This leads to an interesting question regarding our Realm for artefacts. With Bloodtoofs you have 3 of them so you really need to be getting maximum output from all 3. As Bloodtoofs takes care of the Bravery problem our two good artefacts become mediocre. So looking through the realms, with that in mind, I feel like if we aren't going for the combo there are a few other realms that are good. Ghyran - This one is something that I overlooked because it doesn't have a singular God Artefact. That said I could see 6+ of them being useful for us. Ghur - My god this is trash for us. Beastcaller's Bones would be good if it didn't also have the potential to neuter The Cabbage as well. Chamon - After the Errata there's only Gildenbane which stands out. Flowstone Blade, Rune Blade, Chamonite darts and Alchemical Chain are all reasonable second and third relics. Aqshy - Ignax's Scales is the obvious standout here, with Ironclad The Cabbage becomes incredibly hard to kill. Also has reasonable secondary relics with a good variety of options. Ruby Ring and Purefire Brazier provide some nice mortal wound output potential while Exile Torch, Thermalrider Cloak and Cleansing Brooch offer more utility focused options. Shyish - Probably has the two best ranged MW output weapons in Wraithbow and Splintertooth. The Banshee Blade isn't as good as SoJ for killing heroes but actually effects none hero/monster targets and does it in addition to normal damage rather than instead, turns a footboss into a horde killer. Ethereal Amulet is a slightly better version of Ironclad so opens up something like Brutish Cunning. Ragged Cloak seems situational at best. Ulgu - Sword of Judgement is disgusting, we all know that. Miasmatic Blade, Dimensional Blade, Spell Mirror and Doppelganger Cloak are all usable. Betrayers Crown is probably the best horde killer in the game at the moment. Talisman of the Watcher might actually be really good in low wizard lists, put it on a support character and give The Cabbage a free Mystic Shield for that round. Lists and Thoughts So because I'm a consistent and stable kind of Orruk I've clearly decided to switch up my list for the local tournament in a fortnight. I've not quite settled yet but I think my base list is this From there there's a couple of options I can see for the last 380 points. Two Spear Chukkas, Weirdnob + 20 point Endless Spell. Warchanter+20 more Ardboys Warchanter+Footboss 10 more Ardboys Warchanter+Footboss+Weirdnob+The Burning Head Warchanter+Weirdnob+5 more Brutes (A unit of 10 with 2" range) This is based on the models I have available so, no 4 WC for me If I take the 2nd WC I'll probably go Ulgu with the SoJ on either a WC or the Footboss. Any thoughts on the options for finishing the list and on the realm artefacts. I think we have vaguely discussed them before but not really beyond "Aetherquartz Broach and SoJ are disgusting"

And it cuts down your drops considerably. Don't underestimate being able to choose who goes first.

The important parts are the destructive bulk, 15' waaagh and 2+/3+/-2/3 from the cabbage itself.

It's becaue the question, or rather my post, was about "If Bloodtoofs" hence the initial supposition is that you have spent those 300 points. Yes there are perfectly reasonable other lists, I was just exploring in the specific

@Andrew G@broche Actually I agree with you both about the alphastrike Bloodtoofs being a bit short on the range to pull it off reliably. It's why I'm trying a list which doesn't take the cogs. I definitely think dropping magic altogether and just accepting you don't get unbinds is one of the options. That would lead me in one of two directions, either double cabbage or just more meat. After playing around a bit I think that any Wizard Bloodtoofs list is going to be light on either wounds or spells. You're trading the wounds off for the MW output and it's really how hard you lean into it. If I have to be honest I suspect 1 Weirdnob with at most Aethervoid is going to be what we can afford. Anything more than that and you should probably not be running a MB.

Personally I think the weirdnob is mandatory. Even without endless spells it gives you access to mystic shield and MW output. I also think that the +spell cast is super important for a bunch of reasons and keeping the one drop is a big reason to play Bloodtoofs.

If I had one that's what I'd do. Got something coming, I think, which I'm going to use for it. Its on the to do list. And yeah I really miss my 30 strong ardboy unit. Again if I had the models I'd be running 90 ardboys and an artist, the thought of painting 60 more and the huge backlog I already have is stopping me. The other thing is when I get my 2nd cabbage painted, so likely Feb or March, I'll try a 2 cabbage bloodtoofs list. EDIT: As a side note, if I was going to switch off the bloodtoofs I'd like to run one of these two lists. I can see the first being hillarious for a couple of games while the second would be a nightmare for your opponent.