Kaleun

Guys a general shout out to all who post or will post army lists. Please write down for which playing enviroment the list is meant for. Tournament/Competitive/friendly/just for fun/narrative etc. If you want a answer that might help this is an important information. Please note, that we are in the early stages with Cities of Sigmar and to give an answer if this or that is better to take demands some time until we all had our first games, try outs and calulations with the new units. What can be said if a list shall move from friendly to competitive: If you take maxed size units you get point discounts, which means basically that you field more power than your opponent. Maxed units get even better if they have support units with buffs for them and furthermore the unit should have way to get as many attacks in as possible. Example: 30 Black Guard with 2" reach can achieve more hits then Executioners with 1" Weapon reach. Is a hurricanum worth it? Well it does cost a lot of points, but is a great support unit. The hurricanum is worth taking if the hurricanum or the units with hurricanum buff destroy more or equal points from the enemies army. (Just count the additional wounds made possible with the Hurricanum) This is only a rule of thumb and is wrong! Wrong because if can be necessary to concentrate as much power as possible to one side of your army. Is the volleygun or the Rocket battery better? Same thinking: The Rocket battery will shoot more often in the game due to its range. Can one of those artillery pieces make their points back yes/no => if the answer is no because the enemy simply destroys your artillery piece you can think about a chaff unit that you use to soak up the first charge of the enemy. The cost for the chaff unit (plus the small amount of damage) are added up to the point value of the artillery piece and so on...

Will I think of this that you are going to have a great themed army. The low wound - count heros can finally be protected by units. That is great. Now from a Scourge Privateer Players persepective I can tell you that the army will look absolutly gorgeous BUT doesnt do damage. The main thing about Corsairs and also the chariots and the Kharibdyss is that you get wounds for a cheap price, but thats it. You might want to take as many models as you can, because you will win over objectives (Corsairs). If you want to harm your opponent you need something else. We saw a Scourge Privateer army already on a tournament (aos shorts). It had many models, but didnt make it to a winning place or even the top 10 (?). We have a book now, but the problems of the army didnt change. You will want sources of damage for the army.

Anvilguard from Aqshy has the following artefacts from Malign Portents: Aqshy Weapons 1. Ruby Ring. In your hero phase, you can pick the nearest enemy unit within 18" and a die. On a 5+, you do D3 mortal wounds. If two units are equally close, pick one. 2. Magmaforged Blade. Pick one melee weapon. If the wound roll for that weapon is 6+, that attack inflicts 1 mortal wound in addition to its normal damage. 3. Magmadroth Blood Vials. In your shooting phase, pick an enemy unit within 8" and roll a die. 4+ do 1 mortal wound. 4. Purefire Brazier. In your shooting phase, roll a die for each enemy unit within 9". On a 5+ do 1 mortal wound to that unit. 5. Onyx Blade. Pick one melee weapon. It gets +1 to-wound. 6. Exile Torch. At the start of the combat phase, pick an enemy hero within 3" and roll a die. On a 6+, that hero takes a mortal wound and may not fight or be chosen as the target of an attack. Relics 1. Essence of Vulcatrix. Once per battle, at the start of your hero phase. Roll a die. On a 1, take D3 mortal wounds. On a 2+, get +1 to hit and wound until next hero phase. 2. Thermalrider Cloak. +4" Movement and can fly. 3. Smouldering Helm. During the combat phase, each save of 6+ deals 1 mortal wound to the attacker. 4. Ignax's Scales. Negate mortal wounds on a 4+. 5. Crown of Flames. +1 Bravery to allies wholly within 9". 6. Cleansing Brooch. Once per battle, at the start of the hero phase, you can heal D3. -> Also Assassines could be a thing to boost the Damage output of certain units if needed. There are some nice artefacts for the assassin like the Ghyrstrike (Pick a melee weapon to be: +1 to hit and wound), if you make the Assassins origin from city compatible with Ghyran. This would result in 6 attacks hit and wound on 2+ with -1 rend and D3 mortal wounds per 6 on hit.

@JackStreicher thank you for looking it up. They are the same point cost now as the Morrsarr Guard. If you compare them the Morrsarr Gurd will come out on top. Guess it all comes down to unit synergy.

ok lets compare: old warscroll: 140 points new warscroll: 170 points (?) while playing the Knights (and after damage calculation) I liked the damage. What I always missed was the rend on the Knights. So would we pay 30 points more for a unit of 5 Knights to get a -2 rend and 2 damage weapon on the charge? I totally would. just for the mind games take 15 Knights and pay 90 points more (so we leave 10 Dreadspears behind in our army list). Personally I like more expensive cav units anyway. It is less about efficiency pointwise. For me it is important to have a Knight unit that can crush their targets in one round of combat. The new rules look better to me. PS: if I remember correctly they got a point decrease in GH2019 for the time between the last Handbook and Cities of Sigmar. 120 Points I guess.

PS: just checked the old warscroll of the Drakespawn Knights. They are A LOT better now. Not only they got a -2 rend now on the charge plus double damage, also the wound characteristic improved. Also the Dreadlords Lance received the same buff. Defnitly worth a try on the battlefield.

@Mikkl Nah it always depends on the level of competitive gaming that you set with your playing group. If options of Cities of Sigmar are trounament worthy... we will see. On the fluffy side of army lists we got a lot. Imagine building an army list of a pirate sloop constisting of Corsairs, ship command unit (with maat äh adjutant) and some brought volley guns from the ship while Dark Raiders accompany them. (to be honest with you Dark elves hate blackpowder weapons because of their noise and clumsiness, but you know the story with the Reaper bolt thrower...) Black Dragons get a impact attack with Jutting Bones which gets some much needed mortal wounds in the army. @Rhivan Drakespawn Knights got a point reduction in the last GH2019 and now got a buff to their save (now: 3+) if I am not mistaken. There is the thing with the damage. In general I really miss the big damage dealers in this new book. Everything does just so litte damage compared to the other battletome armies sadly. So we must help the Knights do get their much desired killing power. How we do that is the big decision. From my point of view while army building you should aim to wipe units per turn with the Knights. So we need a bigger unit size, well placed models and buffs and debuffs. The buffs are something we could work out together here. I find the Vitrioc Spray and the Celestial hurricanum very appealing. Tyrannical Ruler is also nice, so you can big and important units immune to battleshock (Command ability at the cost of one model).

I dont see the point, but maybe the mods do.

Well its looking fine! (I can speak for the dark aelf factions living in this city) City Allegiance: Anvilgard (Aqshy) The Tortuga of the Mortal Realms. Battle Traits Anvilgard armies must be from Aqshy. Illicit Dealings: Choose one of the following: Black Market Bounty: 1 extra ANVILGARD Artefact of Power Dabblings in Sorcery: 1 additional ANVILGARD Dragon/Kharibdyss/War Hydra can have a Drakeblood Curse Hidden Agenda: D3 extra command points Command Ability: Make an Example of the Weak: At the start of your Battleshock Phase, pick 1 friendly ANVILGARD unit wholly within 12" of an ANVILGARD hero. One model is slain, but ANVILGARD units wholly within 18" of the targeted unit ignore Battleshock. Drakeblood Curses: One Dragon/Kharibdyss/War Hydra, plus one per Battalion, can have a Drakeblood Curse. No model may have more than one curse, and no curse may be taken more than once. Acidic Blood: Roll a dice each time the unit is allocated a wound that wasn't negated. On a 4+, the damaging unit takes 1 mortal wound. Jutting Bones: After the model makes a charge, pick an enemy unit within 1". On a 2+, target takes D3 mortal wounds. Felgaze: 12" -2 bravery bubble. Command Traits Your General chooses one of: Blackfang Crimelord: Pick 2 Illicit Dealings instead of 1. Slayer of Monsters: +1 to hit and wound rolls if you target a MONSTER. Secretive Warlock: If the general is a wizard, they know all the spells in the Anvilgard lore. If not, they know one. Artefacts Of Power One hero, plus one hero per battalion, chooses one of: Drakescale Cloak: 5+ FNP Venomfang Blade: Pick 1 weapon. If the wound roll of the attack is an unmodified 6, it deals D3 mortal wounds in addition to any normal damage. Asphyxia Censer: At the end of the combat phase, each enemy unit within 3" of the bearer on a 4+ takes D3 mortal wounds. Spell Lore Each wizard knows one of the following spells: Sap Strength: CV6. Pick a visible enemy unit within 18". They get -1 to hit until the start of your next hero phase. Shadow Daggers: CV7. If cast, pick a visible enemy unit within 9". They take D6 mortal wounds. Vitrioc Spray: CV8. If cast, pick a visible enemy unit within 6". Until the start of your next hero phase, they have a save characteristic of "-". Use your sorceress's sacrificial dagger to make sure it goes through! Source: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Age_of_Sigmar/Tactics/Order/Cities_of_Sigmar Anvilguard is now also a very thematic city. Especially the Scourge Privateers and the Order Serpentis might feel very comfortable with those upgrades especially for our monsters. The Spell Vitrioc Spray is very interesting. Generally speaking the former Dark elven factions have a big rend problem. This spell could be a solution. If you do not like the Spellcaster factions you can give the spell to a Dreadlord or a fleetmaster if you wish via Secretive Warlock. Generally speaking the new book gave the footslogging factions access to cavalry and artillery and vice versa, which is great.

well time will tell and there are pros and cons. Anvilguard fits very well especially for the Scourge Privateer and Order Serpentis factions. The best thing overall is that we can field dark aelfen armies now without those horrible restraints of the allied system. You asked about the Darkling Covens... well there are very bad news. I do not know how we should make anything with our Executioners... Ohhh Khaine see what they have done to your kin... Executioners now do only one (!) Mortal wound per 6 on hit and thats it. I do not know what to say, but they fell behind human greatswords and Stormcast retributors. Horrible! The other bummer about Darkling Covens is the choice of artefacts. While we got interesting stuff with all those cities, we lost access to the grypth feather charm. Take Anvilguard with that 5+ Feel no Pain instead. Is the Thrall Warhost battalion still in game??

on the second page of threads you can find the already startet Anvilguard thread.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/09/23/faction-focus-cities-of-sigmargw-homepage-post-4/ there we have the first big review of CoS.

my bad. Misread that one. No Bridge + Gotrek. However maybe there are some movement buffs that can make him faster.

regarding Gotrek: To say the consensus first: I do not think Gotrek will find himself suited to run around with dark elven murder aelfs. I do not think the ladies would appreciate that beard either. However that guy is tough as nails. That 3+ negation of wounds and mortal wounds makes him super hard to kill, while the ability to attack twice really comes in handy against targets with a save value of 3+ or 4+. That guy is a Stormcast blob killer type of guy! Or greater Daemons, or ... anywayI do not think he is comparable to Morathi honestly. Morathi is a very fast tarpit unit, while Gotrek... well he has a big beard, but very short legs. He might fit in an army that is slow as him or can compensate his movement. So a way to fit him in would be something like Spellcasters + Soulscream Bridge. Edit: "Soulscream Bridge"

that depends on your motivation to paint the models and on your playing community how many points you want to play with. I suggest to start with a list of 1000 points. Try the Warscrollbuilder to compose a list. For inspiration this thread and other sources can help you. Besides the point value you want to start with you can decide to either make a strong competitive list or something for friendly games.

Jack Armstrong played Morathi plus the Cauldron Guard. The list by todays point values is 2130. So Mr. Armstrong would have to throw out the Medusa for example to make the list legal according to GHB 2019. In general I think the Cauldron Guard is pretty good, However with the 20 point more expensive witches per ten and the more expensive Hag Queen it got more expensive then the Slaughter troupe in comparison. Cauldron Guards minimum requierements went from 540 to 610 points: Hag Queen (90)10 x Witch Aelves (120)- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives10 x Witch Aelves (120)- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)Cauldron Guard (120) Slaughter Troupe got a point increase from 630 to 650 points: Slaughter Queen (100)10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)Slaughter Troupe (130)

🙂 Thank you, but it is Josh Richards army. The unit composition fits well though.

Because of the critical hit mechanic the game might favor Horde Warbands instead of more elite Warbands. Warcry seems to be a lot about objectives and controling the right areas of the gaming field at the right time. However I do not agree with the statement that calculation of "average damage" is useless. The calculation lets you get a feeling which units are more combat effective then others. Statistics are getting ever more accurate the more games you play. The analytics behind it are true for a infinite number of games.

New Handbook, new lists. The Darkling Covens got some point drops and I am super excited to craft lists and lead the Darkling Covens against our enemies in this new season. Here we go with the first list: Allegiance: Darkling CovensMortal Realm: GhurSorceress on Black Dragon (260)- General- Witch Rod- Trait: Impossibly Swift - Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm Sorceress (100)- Artefact: Decanter of Egos Sorceress (100) 30 x Black Guard (320)20 x Executioners (320)10 x Darkshards (100)10 x Darkshards (100)40 x Dreadspears (320)5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)- Allies5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)- Allies Thrall Warhost (180)Total: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 180 / 400Wounds: 144 Cheaper Black Guard and Dreadspears? Sold! Lets look at the list. We are using a highly protected SoBD to keep our troops in the fight with "tyrannical ruler" and inspire the hatred in our units. The Gryph-feather charm also gives +1" movement which could be a lifesaver on that last objective. The Darkling Covens are a very slow and reactive army. To overcome those weakness one of the Sorceresses brought the Decanter of Egos, while the Daughters of Khaine lend us some Khinerai Heartrenders to grab objectives and threaten mission objectives behind enemy lines. In cases where we loose all our chaff units the Harpies could provide blocking actions. We are a bit short on magic spells however. Endless Spells like the Geminids or the Chronomatic Cogs could really help the army... By removing 20 Dreadspears we could take both of those Endless Spells. So we would give up Chaff or a capable Objective holder unit für more mortal wounds and saver charges. What are your thoughts? Generally speaking I think the Darkling Covens are a bit more competitive right now. PS: Just because it is a well painted army and is similar to the list above:

looks fine to me. Totally ok for your first DoK game. Personally I think it is a rather strong list. Better tell your opponent that you take the gloves off and go for a competitive list. What will you be against? For optimisation I would throw out the second Cauldron, but its fine if you want to play without magic (Medusa).

Warhammer Community Spotlight: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/06/warband-focus-corvus-cabalgw-homepage-post-4/

@Emissary absolute awesome post. Big like to you Sir. How do we fare in missions with the Daughters? Could the fast Heartrender grab a objective fast?

thats a bit of a to theoretical approach. Try it out with proxy models how the close combat situation really unfolds. SoS will use their knives from the first and second row of models. The 2" reach means that a third row of models can put wounds on an enemy unit. This makes max. size units of SoS look interesting. Please note however that smaller units of sister could also reach over friendly models and support them in close combat. For me I thought it through and went for the knives. Why? Because I am a former Dark Elve player and the Druchii way is the way of the glasscannon. That means we win games by wiping enemy units in the first strike. If not, the army is wrong composed or will not punch itself through to victory. The dark elven weakness are endurance fights. Conclusio: max damage for me. Defensive options are for other armies. thanks a lot for the calculation. You are right that we can not use the same lists as the ETC players. Honestly who would?!? However the reason we talk about this are the Warscrolls. Those didnt change and we see very clearly which leader units or core units are favoured in highly competitive lists. Post GHB 2019 the Daughters of Khaine have to change their lists.

yes, we took a hit with the nerf-hammer, but nevertheless we see which warscrolls are favored in the tournament scene. With Morathi vs. 20 Blood Sisters it all comes down to the opposing lists DoK are facing. For me Morathi is a defensive option. Morathi is less damage dealer further more she can tarpit units that would be a problem (aka. Deathstars spoken in old Warhammer terms). The Snakes on the other hand bring Mortal wounds to the table and provide more damage for the army. I consider them a offensive option. Overall I like the Druchii-theme of a glascannon army. Thats why I think the offensive options might be the way to go. Strategies can be built around Morathi for sure however. It is always good to have a unit that can pin down enemy units.

I have prepared a poster for you with all the DoK lists of ETC 2019, so it will be easier to compare. out of 8 lists we have: 4 lists with Claudron Guard (Witches+Lifetakers) 3 lists with Slaughter troupe (SoS+Heartrenders) 5 lists have Morathi every list makes use of the max. unitsize for point efficiency Leader section of all lists is very simliar (core: Slaughter Queen on Cauldron + 2 Hag Queens + Medusa) DoK ETC 2019 - all.pdf