SwampHeart

I have but its an 80 point increase which just isn't in the list. I can at most cut another 20 points out that list and feel remotely comfortable with what it does.

I assume you don't regularly need to add 3" to most of your charges because your opponent has positioned his models floating 3" up a terrain feature.

Doesn't like toxicity but encourages toxicity towards those who enjoy using older GW range models/the updated lore for those ranges. Ironic.

Show proof - link to concrete information that proves this is true. And as to the main point - in the politest possible terms, get bent. I love Cities of Sigmar and the fact that you think my army should be less than yours just because its not 'new' is utter garbage and a genuinely offensive idea.

With the KO changes I've shifted gears back to LC (using KO allies ironically enough). Played a little 3 round local tournament this past weekend and went 3-0 with the following list: Notes: -My opponents were - OBR: Places of Arcane Power, IDK: Starstrike, Maggotkin: Focal Points. -I was impressed with the army's ability to exert board control and deal with multiple threats. That said I've got a fair chunk riding in the Hidden Paths contingent (Desolators, Dreadlord, and Hurricanum every game). -I beat OBR because of Hidden Paths, I gave him the double going in to turn 2 and he was forced to commit which gave me big openings to exploit with my movement tricks. -Adding the KO fly high with the blaster that is the Endrinmaster adds another level of headache for opponents. Now they have to both screen Hidden Paths as well as a constantly board traversing gun boat/mini cannon. -Scourge Runner Chariots continue to impress, 18 M12 wounds is just never not good. They do die but they usually give something a black eye first and require a larger commitment of resources than they're worth to get rid of. I was using borrowed models for this event but given how much I enjoyed playing it I think this is going to be my hobby project for the next year. I'm going to focus on heavy conversions for nearly every unit and I'm excited to challenge myself hobbywise with this list.

Notes (some positive, some -Release schedule - I love how fast its been. We don't need week long army spotlights or month long releases, get the book and the kits out so we can get them on the table and play. I doubt GW can keep up the 2019 pace but I'd love to see the game stay in the state of flux its been in as far as the meta is concerned for the foreseeable future. -Overall balance - there have been some obvious misses but overall I think GW has done a pretty good job on releasing books with options/multiple viable builds. -Plastic characters in dual boxes - get these out faster. Its especially bad when the model is a very good or pivotal model to an army, having to either scour 2nd hand or convert isn't great. -Terrain Rules - For the love of whatever you hold holy AoS needs better terrain rules. They're so abstracted as to be barely useful and can be gamed in a variety of ways. The fact that models can basically 'float' at a certain height on a ruin is ridiculous. -Terrain Kits - More of these would be great, I don't mind 3D printing or using great companies like Dark Fantastic Mills but having some ETB plastic kits would be nice and help further shape the lore in less interesting ways.

I've put away TE now that the changes to KO have gone through. I don't hate the book or anything but I'm uninterested in TE without the incredibly strong alpha KO provided.

Moved to 1 of each special weapon per unit, Khemist I honestly think stays pretty unchanged? For my build if Khemists stay the same I probably move to Endrinriggers instead of company. That said I expect all of the scrolls to improve in viability, I'm hoping that the other 2 special weapon options become actually good so then company are still rad.

Must use? Our army relies consistently on heroes being on the table and getting buffs spread out so you really need to make sure those heroes stay alive anyway possible. Its a rare day that my general isn't in cover near his retinue.

Fantastic - they're high value. They take buffs well and aren't overly punished by moving. Additionally stand and shoot takes a melee unit and turns it into a pseudo melee unit on the turn they're charged. It can of course be worked around and isn't going to win a game entirely on its own but it really makes charging them so much less attractive than a regular ranged unit. I can't see leaving home without 20-30.

You could have just typed 'I'm too cheap to buy new things needed to be able to play with the new book' - would have been faster, easier, and more concise. Also if you think SCE are needed or even actually very good in CoS - again you're bad at the game. Most CoS winning lists are running 0-1 SCE units in them because they don't fit well in the book at all.

You're confusing your inability to play the game well with CoS being bad. Understandable but very wrong as is evidenced by CoS performance in the hands of less arrogant and more skilled players.

No one is telling anyone they're playing it wrong - the OP is discussing specifically the competitive nature of Cities which requires making use of multiple factions. You can play Cities however you like but you have to understand that the results you get when choosing to play a mono subfaction aren't going to be indicative of the potential of the book.

Right now? Absolutely. If shooting continues to move up the meta then I may swap out to LC but until then TE is the correct answer. Heavy, buffed shooting is a major answer to a lot of the current boogymen in the meta (HoS and OBR for example), and TE is the city to bring it to bear. TE has 5-0 at a major already - Da Boyz GT. It is but TE controls that. TE allows you to both run and shoot as well as giving you +3" of movement in turn one in addition to getting +1 to all run rolls. Again Handgunners have a 32" maximum reach so you have the flexibility to deploy 3-4" off the line (making your opponent's effective range on 24" maps 27-28") which means you've got the ability to out range their alpha strike. However if they choose to go second you can easily cover the gap and still deliver your ranged punch. That's why I like TE so much is they get to both avoid melee/magic alphas while being in range to deliver their own. It's like being a boxer with better reach than your opponent.

There's no reason to deploy in a fashion to allow this to happen without giving yourself the chance to punish the chargers with Handgunner stand and shoot. If your opponent chooses to have you go first you can reach a 38" range with Skyhooks or a 32" range with handgunners. The idea that being high drop and thus forced to go 2nd is bad for TE ignores the ability to run and shoot and the +3" of movement the army gets in turn one. I play HoS so I'm fully aware of the threat range of the army. I've also caught out multiple opponents now who thought the same way - they gave me the first turn under the auspices of me not being able to alpha with my shooting. I rarely have opponents who give me the first turn now. Also very difficult because you get the opportunity to deploy in advantageous positions understanding their counters. The Khemist should never be the general so that your opponent can't take out your Hawk Eyed and attack buff at the same time. However the Khemist has a 3+ save on the first turn (2+ in cover) and quite readily can deploy outside the effective range of most threats because you only need to tag the edge of your company unit with a 10" range buff to pump skyhooks. TE isn't perfect, it has counters but none of them are hard counters. I regularly play against Shootcast, Big Waaagh, FEC, HoS, OBR, and Hallowheart - I've yet to put a TE army on the table that didn't have the ability to play the game. I've of course lost games due to bad plays on my part or great ones on my opponent but I've never been snowed under or blown out. TE has one of the best tool boxes available in CoS in my experience (I've played LC, HH, and TE at this point). You just have to build a list that gives your opponents bad outs more often than not.

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/blood-and-glory-2109-1st-place/ https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/blood-and-glory-2019-2nd-place/ https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/blood-and-glory-2019-3rd-place/ BnG Top 3 lists. Also look up Da Boyz GT (held in the US) where a TE list when 5-0 and took 2nd overall as well. I'd also consider just taking a look at what some major competitive players are looking at right now (Jake Lecuyer in the US for example) to see if competitive players are swapping to CoS.

It's 5-0'd two GTs. The book is great, most people are just bad at using it. It's a very high ceiling book and if you bothered to actually watch the stats show you'd know Rob specifically talks about the CoS win rate. There's an elite pocket going 5-0/4-1 with the book and then a big swath of bads going 2-3. It's not the books fault people don't play it well. But obviously watching the stats show or trying to get any context that challenges your view is outside your purview - you need CoS to be bad.

If you're only taking it for the +1 to hit its not worth it. But when you factor in just its really good MW output it starts to get much stronger, I always run mine as a wizard so I'm also getting a spell at +1 to cast as well.

Honest Wargamer is down right now but once its back up I'll post the link. You can also check out their VODs on Twitch for a recap of Tom's Hallowheart list that took 1st place by a mile. Final game was against Russ Veal's BoK - worth a watch.

No I mean Blood and Glory 2019, one of the largest AoS events in the world. What I'm saying is that CoS is quite clearly a book capable of taking majors because its far better than a mid tier book. It can easily compete with the top of the meta right now.

Its not too bad since Hurricanum isn't wholly within so as long as you can tag the tail end of a base you can get them in.

Lol. CoS won a major in effectively the first tournament it was playable in. The butt hurt in the last few posts in this thread is palpable, its amazing.

Yeah my change kept in some different elements than yours so bridge brings some options otherwise missing movement trickery. But different strokes and all, part of why Cities is such a great book (and one of the reasons TE is such a great city).

This feels really unfocused - you've got your general with the immune to BS artifact on a large dragon who presumably wants operate independently of the rest of the army. You're running Hawk Eyed but you've only got one unit to really take advantage of it and you've got your adjutant bonus on a model that needs to be close to enemy models to grant his bonus. I've tried to re-orient the list using a similar theme but with a bit more of a coherent package. -Sorcereress on Black Dragon - Witch Rod, Witch Lash, Aura of Glory Swapped to a Sorcereress here to give you access to to run and charge for your blackguard + possibly buffing them with re-rolling 1s to hit and to wound depending on positioning -Battle Mage of Hysh - Strike of Eagles, General's Adjutant, Patrician's Helm This guy will mostly be casting Pha's on your Darkshards or Longbeards -Sorceress - General (Hawk Eyed), Celestial Visions This is your general, can help generate extra CP as needed, cast SSB, or her own debuff situationally -30x Blackguard Kept these guys in since I'm guessing you're pretty fond, working to make them stand alone with the Black Dragon Sorc -30x Dark Shards Good shooting unit to put out a volume to help clear screens for your BG -20x Longbeards I know this one seems odd but LB in TE are very good, you'll be able to move them a minimum of 9" on turn one, they have a 3+ (2+ in melee) on the first turn as well, these guys should act as a great screen to keep your shooters in action all game/give you an early durable scorer -10x Bleak Swords - Retinue A nice cheap retinue/sacrifice bait unit for your foot Sorc as needed -3x Vanguard Raptors with Long Strike Crossbows I wanted to give you a second unit to benefit from the hurricanum/hawk eyed and these guys fill a nice niche in your army, allowing you to aim for support heroes to give you a lead in pressure. They really benefit from TE here because you can move on the first turn and exceed the lost range -Celestial Hurricanum (non character variant) I'd have prefered this was a caster but points wouldn't allow, even without a wizard on the back this will support your shooting core, give you some MW drops and give your Battle Mage +1 to cast -Soulscream Bridge I kept the Bridge in because it can really help you deal with a gap in enemy positioning/late game scoring, etc. I hope this is helpful without seeming to entirely rewrite your whole list.

Its not a nerf, it just makes you play the rule correctly as it was written.