PJetski

Despite the news that Liberators will be cheaper, Im still ready to be disappointed by Stormcast in GHB 2020

Realm artefacts from Malign Sorcery are being phased out with GHB 2020, which is another big blow to Stormcast since we leaned on those artefacts.

I think Kroak is fine at 320. He's a named character 4 spell wizard with effectively 14 wounds... that's good but not out of line with a lot of other creatures at that point level. He seems to be fine in a Seraphon army and as an ally unit without the support pieces (Seraphon allegiance, spell lores, astrolith bearer, balewind vortex, saurus guard, vassal casting) his power is drastically reduced. Only Stormcast armies can use him as an ally so the extra command points are very limited value. If anything regular Slann and Troglodon are overcosted and should probably go down to 200-220.

The best units in a Stormcast army right now are Salamanders and Lord Kroak. I don't think they can do much to fix it with points, because they would have to slash almost everything down by 20% to make this army competitive. The knockdown effect of that is Stormcast bringing a lot more bodies to the table... which doesn't seem to fit with the idea of what this army ought to be doing. The main issues I see are threefold 1. The allegiance abilities suck! The artefacts are junk, the spell lore is underwhelming, all the subfactions are just terrible. Anvils is the only good one, and it has been power crept hard. 2. The warscrolls are out of date. An elite army shouldn't have basic troops with a 4+ save and no rend on their attacks, and general type heroes with only 5 wounds. Even the newer units are underwhelming - Wizards with no casting bonuses, overpriced battleline and the worst shooting unit in the game (Castigators). The battalions are all trash, too. 3. Too many overpriced heroes that don't do much. There is very little synergy between units, and what is there is generally not worthwhile. Even as combat heroes Stormcast are underwhelming - the wizard heroes do more melee damage than the non-wizards! Though I am extremely pessimistic about the state of Stormcast and think they need a new book, I would like to see the following point changes in the meantime: Point changes Strike Chamber Celestant Prime 340 > 280 Castellant 120 > 100 Celestant 100 > 80 Celestant on Dracoth 220 > 180 Relictor 100 > 90 Veritant 120 > 110 Questor 100 > 80 Venator 120 > 100 Vexillor 120 > 100 Liberators 100/520 > 80 Judicators 160 > 140 Prosecutors 90 > 80 Decimators 180 > 150 Retributors 200 > 160 Protectors 180 > 150 Extremis Chamber Drakesworn Templar 420 > 380 Celestant on Stardrake 500 > 420 Concussors 240 > 220 Fulminators 240 > 220 Tempestors 200 > 180 Vanguard Chamber Aquilor 180 > 160 Hunters 110 > 100 Gryph-Hounds 140 > 120 Sacrosanct Chamber Aventis 340 > 300 Arcanum 160 > 140 Arcanum on Tauralon 320 > 260 Arcanum on Dracoline 220 > 200 Arcanum on Gryph-Charger 220 > 200 Exorcist 120 > 100 Ordinator 140 > 120 Sequitors 130/440 > 110 Evocators 220 > 200 Castigators 80 per 3 to 100 per 6 Ballista 110 > 100 Dais Arcanum 30 > 20 Celestian Vortex 40 > 30 Everblaze Comet 100 > 80 Role changes Hunters battleline in Stormcast army Palladors battleline if your general is a Lord-Aquilor Prosecutors battleline in Stormcast army Retributors battleline if your general is a LORD-CELESTANT Tempestors battleline if your general is a STARDRAKE or DRACOTH These are significant changes across the board, but I think it's warranted because so many Stormcast units range from underperforming to downright awful.

4+d6 max damage per shooting phase at that accuracy and rend for 160 points is not very good

All of the Salamanders

Not all stormcast use straight meteor tails - look at the wings of Prosecutors and you'll see wavy tailed comets.

Everything looks bad compared to Salamanders, they are probably the single best unit in the game so it's not a totally fair comparison at all 😄 You spend 220 points on a Bastiladon to get a very durable monster on a big base and sometimes its laser does something useful. I would always run 1 (and only 1) in Thunder Lizard lists because the double tap is pretty good long range damage, but in any other list the Bastiladon would be there primarily as a mobile wall.

1. You definitely want a Bound Burning Head to boost shooting lists 2. I think you're going to run out of command points. Allow me to explain: Bastiladon shooting is really only useful if you boost their accuracy with +1 hit & reroll hit1, and then double tap from Thunder Lizard. That's at least 2 command points per shooting phase per bastiladon. With 2 Bastiladons thats 4 CP per turn, which is a big ask. Furthermore, a big weakness of Coalesced Salamanders is their bravery. After losing 7 skink handlers you are guaranteed to lose all your Salamanders, so you want to make sure you keep some command points to use Inspiring Presence. lf you're playing that many Salamanders you need to bank some command points for inspiring presence, which comes to odds with the amount of CP you are using to boost Bastiladons. I think running 1 Bastiladon is fine, but the 2nd one is too much of a CP sink. 3. Personally I think if you want to run a shooting list you should run Fangs of Sotek with big hordes of skinks and teleporting Salamander squads, or Dracothions Tail to deep strike multiple Salamander/Razordon squads into play. Also, summoning more Salamanders and then immediately teleporting them into shooting range is incredible. 4. Your biggest weakness will be lists that can bog you down in combat and/or fight twice. Bastiladons do little damage in melee and the 30 skinks won't last long. Without the ability to just teleport out of combat you will find yourself tied down in long battles you can't afford to fight through, or even risk losing your key Salamanders. 5. Kroak without an Astrolith... not sure that's worth running. 6. You want some kind of large infantry block or fighty hero that can charge to contest objectives on scenarios like Duality of Death.

And yet they're still the best battleline choice for Stormcast armies

I should have been clearer - I was responding specifically to your comment about their comparative efficiency. If I recall correctly when you did your analysis you made the assumption that all Terradons and all Ripperdactyls were able to be in range to deal their full damage. In practice it's much easier to get the most out of Terradons than Ripperdactyls because fitting 12x 50mm bases into combat with 1" attacks is quite difficult. It's much easier to shoot from 6" away and drop rocks while moving and/or charging and/or piling into combat, so you almost always get closer to the full potential when using Terradons than Rippers. I don't think Ripperdactyls are objectively bad, but Terradons seem to be strictly at fulfilling the same role.

The Seraphon FAQ released today has answered this question

Thats assuming you can get them all in range with their 1" attacks, which is unlikely at 6 models and basically never going to happen once you go past 6 models in the unit. Terradons have the same problem with their 1" melee attacks, but they do a lot of their damage with shooting and rocks before they need to melee. Terradons are faster and do more damage in a single turn, while Rippers have a little more survivability and would do more damage if they got multiple combat phases to attack. Unfortunately both units die horribly after they get one round of combat so there's little chance of getting a second, and that assumes you don't fight something that changes the combat order and fights before you do. The only thing keeping Ripperdactyls viable was the idea that you could pump 5 command points into them and unleash hell in a single round of combat. If you like Ripperdactyls you can make them a pretty good hammer unit... but in a competitive game there is no reason to use a large unit of Rippers over Terradons.

Protectors give nearby units cover and deal bonus damage to MONSTERs. Decimators are horde killers and also increase battleshock results (this is really good in Anvils). All Retributors do is swing their hammers so if they did equal damage to the other two kinds of Paladins then you would never use a Retributor.

FAQ/Errata is up, here's the highlights No change to Bastiladon, so it is still unaffected by Rend while it has a 1+ save Fangs of Sotek command ability changed so it can only be used if an enemy unit ends a charge move within 3" No changes to Realmshaper Engine :( They clarified what happens when you cast Balewind Vortex while inside a garrison You can use Bound spells and regular Endless Spells in the same list, but you can't double up on them (ie: no double geminids) No changes to Razordons, so they can still shoot after their own charges Ripperdactyl Chief cant use his CA more than once Stegadon and Engine of the Gods have erratas to clarify what is a mount

Everyone would just pick Aqshy all the time forever

I wouldn't even know where to send it, or if they would even bother reading it?

Liberators are bad but they're a 5 star unit compared to Castigators. Max 3 damage and 6 wounds on a 4+ for 80 points. God awful. Castigators are without a doubt the worst unit in the game, somehow even worse than the 1.0 Troglodon. Even at 60 per 3 they wouldn't be worth using. Eternity Warden is a top contender for "most useless warscroll" because Saurus Guard serve the same purpose but are better at it, but at least it's not objectively bad like the Castigators. Many of the Underworld warbands are probably in consideration for worst warscroll

I'm waiting for the FAQ before I start making any value judgements on units. Bastiladon, Stegadon Chief, and Engine of the Gods need some erratas Bound spells, too

Yeah that's true, I forgot to include the extra Jaw attack.

March 2020 Update: https://imgur.com/a/tCyMsVJ My two main goals with this update are: 1. Inject more flavour into each of the Stormhosts. I'm trying to think of answers to questions like "How does each Stormhost approach a battle? What are their favoured units? Who are their leaders?" Please look over the Stormhosts with fresh eyes and let me know what you think! Hammers of Sigmar They take a general approach to war since they don't favour any one aspect, instead focused on defense and rapid reinforcement. They are the only Stormhost to add more units to the table. The God-forged Blade is a very powerful offensive artefact, and it creates a story where a chosen champion gets the killing blow while his army holds back the tide of enemies. The Hallowed Knights Their faith gives them purity against foul sorceries. This is reflected in their battle trait that allows them to ignore spells. The Hallowed Knights are the holy crusade of Sigmar, boisterous and inspiring, heralding the end of Chaos and a return to Order. This stormhost should utilize many Priests and prayers. Sacrifice empowers their allies, and this is reflected in the Command Ability. Martyr's Strength creates a story where a unit is slain, but before they are sent back to Azyr a portion of their power is captured by a nearby PRIEST and transferred to another unit. Celestial Vindicators Controlled rage unleashed at the right moment. Celestial Vindicators are the de-facto melee stormhost, and their current rules reflect it well. This stormhost wants to use units with multiple weapon profiles, powerful weapons with low attack values, fast units that can get the charge off, and strong melee heroes I have only made minor improvements to this Stormhost, since I think they already have a good niche carved out for themselves. Anvils of the Heldenhammer Anvils are ancient, ordered, and grim stormhost. They focus on morale effects and improve the power of larger units. This is the only stormhost that can shoot twice, and although they can fight in the hero phase it's not as useful as being able to fight twice in the combat phase after moving and charging into the position you want The previous version of Deathly Aura forcing enemies to take battleshock tests was an unintuitive mechanic, so instead it reduces enemy bravery by 2 Knights Excelsior Relentless, merciless, uncompromising This stormhost favours overwhelming force that leaves nothing to chance. This is reflected in their Storm of Annihilation battle trait and their No Mercy command ability. Their leaders are are jailers and executioners, reflected in Divine Executioner command trait and Chains of Celestial Lightning, an artefact that prevents all nearby enemies from retreating. This is the only stormhost that can fight twice in the combat phase Celestial Warbringers Celestial Warbringers should really want to use a lot of Wizards and Priests, as they are more attuned to the spiritual visions they receive, and the visions should define their gameplay. Fearless Foresight now works in every phase rather than every turn, but it can only be used by a WIZARD or PRIEST unit Portents and Omens has been made more powerful, but also has a higher casting value "Portents and Omens has a casting value of 8. If successfully cast, subtract 1 from attacks that target friendly CELESTIAL WARBRINGERS units wholly within 18" of the caster." Tome of Augury also teaches the bearer every spell from both Lores Tempest Lords The Tempest Lords are masters of combined combat, never dedicated to any single engagement, always able to slip away and reinforce another part of the battlefield. This is reflected in their immensely powerful Grand Strategists battle trait that allows them to shoot and charge even if they ran or retreated. The Tempest Lords should favour units that can both shoot and fight, like Dracoths and Prosecutors. They want to shoot from the edge of combat and then dive in for the kill. This is reflected in Rousing Oratory, providing a boost to shooting hit rolls and combat wound rolls. Their leaders are heavenly nobles and master tacticians. The Patricians Helm allows the use of a command ability for free every phase, while the command trait provides a significant accuracy boost for a mounted hero but only while they stay near their allies. Astral Templars Battle Trait now better reflects the survival and tracking skills of the Astral Templars as a Stormhost from Ghur, and pushes the idea that they will utilize many mounted units (Dracoths, Palladors, Dracolines, etc.) Their leaders are experienced hunters, slayers of the most dangerous beasts in the realm (or a just regular beast in Ghur) +1 hit against MONSTER was either too powerful or completely useless. I have changed it to activate against any unit with 8 or more wounds. To limit its power I have changed from a passive ability into a Command Trait aura 2. Make Lord of the Host (+1 save to army) accessible to all Stormcast generals rather than just Lord-Celestant generals. Is it overpowered to give Stormcast +1 to save? I don't know. For the number of wounds and their point costs, it seems like Stormcast units need to be more durable than a 4+ save. Other changes since the last update: All Lords with 5 wounds now have 6 wounds All mounted Lords with 7 wounds now have 8 wounds (Vandus has 9) Lord-Celestant on Dracoth - Shield Wall command ability now allows you to re-roll all saves but those units cannot retreat, run, or charge. Stardrake Great Claws now deal 3 damage instead of D3. 6 attacks at 3 damage... yup! Lord-Relictor's Relic Hammer does D3 damage instead of 1 Lord-Veritant's Judgement Blade does 3 damage instead of 2 Knight-Azyros' Starblade does D3 damage instead of 1 Strife-Ender now adds 2 attacks, or 3 vs CHAOS Obsidian Blade improved Rend by 2 instead of 1 Spellshield reworded: "Once per turn the bearer can attempt to unbind and dispel one spell in the same manner as a WIZARD. Add 2 to an unbinding roll or dispel roll made in this way."

Kroxigors in a Thunderquake Templehost are pretty good. You get 7 attacks per model on 3+/3+/-1 and either 2 damage (maul) or a chance at mortal wounds (bite). That's pretty good for a 140p unit.

Shadowstrike Templehost is a very good battalion. It fills 2 battleline slots and includes a hero you will probably be bringing anyway, so it's pretty good to slip into a list for a cheap artefact. It also gives a significant hit buff that stacks with the Skink Priest command ability so you can easily get your units to +2 to hit rolls. 12 Terradons 16" Fly move Run & shoot & charge (Skink Priest - Starstone Staff) Hunter's Steed asterism for +1 run and +1 charge +1 hit from battalion, +1 hit from Herald of the Old Ones (Skink Priest), reroll hit1 (multiple sources), and Serpent Staff (Skink Starpriest) to cause mortal wounds on wound6 Coalesced so +1 Jaw attack Shoot for an average of 42 attacks (should be easy to get everyone within 6" with +1 run & shoot). Average 27 wounds before saves and 7 mortal wounds. 3d6+1 charge to drop 12 rocks (probably on top of a different unit since youre about to massively overkill the first one). With a Terradon Chief nearby you do an average of 20 mortal wounds. Attack in melee with 60 attacks (if you can fit everyone in range) for an average of 39 wounds and 10 mortal wounds. You can debuff one unit with the Starseer to effectively give the Terradons Rend-1. Total average damage: 66 wounds before saves, 37 mortal wounds. Point cost: 150 (battalion) + 360 (12 Terradons) + 70 (Chief) = 580 Alternatively you can run Ripperdactyls and pump up their attacks with command points and you can massively overkill everything in front of you. With +2 hit and Serpent Staff even the riders are going to do significant damage. With +2 to saves from Priest + Starseer maybe you can actually survive some damage in order to fight again, though I see this struggling compared to the Terradon kamikaze squad.

What allies would you consider for a Seraphon army? I think that the Knight Azyros to re-roll hit rolls of 1 against enemies within 10" is going to be very useful since there aren't many ways to gain rerolls in a Seraphon army. This will be especially important for boosting the accuracy of low-volume, high-impact attackers like Salamanders and Stegadons. The Lord-Arcanum's command ability to move an endless spell an extra D6" seems pretty useful in a Slann + Kroak magic domination list... you'll have lots of endless spells and lots of command points.

It works on mount attacks. HERO is just a keyword like any other.