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Everything posted by scrubyandwells

  1. Brendan Melnick and I started talking a couple years ago about potential supplementary awards for AoS events. In particular, we were interested in awards for "casually competitive" players: folks who enjoy going to events but who also enjoy playing non-optimal builds, or generally uncommon armies, for a variety of reasons. Those discussions led to Brendan ironing out the kinks for two awards that he's been offering at Brew City Brawl: The Sigmar Hardmode Award (AKA the "Special Snowflake"): Eligible for players that finish at least 3-2 with an army that is both unique and challenging to win with. Assessing the winner can be done in different ways. Brew City, e.g., has a small, private group of trusted voters who make the final selection. (Sidenote: We were thrilled to see @domus and AoS Coach add a similar award to Midwest Meltdown and Sydney GT respectively.) The Big 3 Award: At Brew City, the Big 3 is awarded to the player with the highest total score whose list includes only 3 Leaders, in addition to the rest of their 2K list. Of those 3 Leaders, 2 must be Unique and 2 must be Behemoth. (Thus 1 must be a Unique Behemoth Leader.) Of course, some armies can't meet those requirements, but as a supplementary award, I think it's OK if it has some exclusions. Different parameters could be set for both awards as well. The Big 3, e.g., could be reoriented to make it more broadly accessible. (In that regard, @Ben Johnson was part of our original inspiration, in light of his well-known love of running at least 3 Behemoths.) However, I think Brendan ended up with the limitations that he set for the Big 3, in part because it's not that usual nowadays to see lists running 3+ Terrorgheists, Bloodthirsters, Keeper of Secrets, and so on. Recently, he and I have been discussing another possible award. At tournaments, it's common to see lists that duplicate the same warscroll: 18 Morrsarr Guard, 60+ Witch Aelves, 60+ Dryads, etc. We thought it'd be cool to have an award eligible for players who bring faction armies that better reflect the variety of that faction's model range. We don't have a name worked out yet, and would love to hear any suggestions; but here's some early thoughts on one potential spec. The award could be eligible to players with a faction-specific list that includes: a minimum of 4 Leaders and 6 Non-Leaders no duplicate warscrolls, unless the faction has 2 or less Battleline/Battleline If options, in which case you can duplicate that faction's Battleline/Battleline If, up to 3 total Battleline in your list (note that a duplicate warscroll still only counts as 1 warscroll toward your minimum 6 Non-Leaders) allies limited to Heroes only (e.g., this allows factions without Wizards to add them as allies) #3 could be removed possibly i.e. no extra restrictions on allies The above excludes some factions that have a small range (e.g., Ironjawz), but most of the ranges are eligible. Here's an example of a 2K list under the above conditions: Leaders Aether-Khemist (160) Arkanaut Admiral (120) Aetheric Navigator (80) Endrinmaster (120) Battleline 10 x Arkanaut Company (120) 10 x Arkanaut Company (120) 10 x Arkanaut Company (120) Units 6 x Endrinriggers (240) 6 x Skywardens (240) 5 x Grundstok Thunderers (100) War Machines Arkanaut Ironclad (420) Grundstok Gunhauler (160) Total: 2000 / 2000 The above has 4 Leaders and 6 Non-Leaders, with the duplicate Arkanaut Company only counted as 1 warscroll toward the minimum 6 Non-Leaders. In terms of competitiveness, some factions will be able to build lists with excellent variety that are stronger on the table than the variety lists of other factions. That's inevitable, and perfectly cool. (On average, though, lists will tend to be less optimal.) The main goal here is just to have an incentive and award for players drawn toward collecting and experiencing a faction on the table that more broadly reflects the faction's model range. So that's one potential spec for another award to go along with Sigmar Hardmode and the Big 3. It probably has some kinks, and other specs might be better. Would love to hear any thoughts on the above, or other potential supplementary awards for AoS events.
  2. Sorry for double post. Still no way to delete posts?
  3. Another thing to consider is 1x6 Kurnoth Bows instead of 2x3, so that if you need to teleport all of them out of harm's way, you can (as long as you have somewhere for them to land...). This isn't great with Heartwood RR hits artefact on a Bwraith, though, since you may have to teleport her as well, which runs into our new Nav Realmroot once/turn limit. Thankfully, the artefact bubble is wholly within 12", so with a Bwraith moving 7" and then running, that's decent board coverage even without teleporting her. An Arch-Rev would give greater mobility to keep the artefact in range of the Bows (or other Kurnoth) for the RRs to hit, but he has some misalignment in lists I've been looking at, unless going both, say, 6 Bows and 6 Swords, so that you can better leverage his CA. At the same time, with our ******-for-all CP generation, it may be a moot point, since you'll be spending CP on the Glade CA, charge RRs, etc.
  4. Of course it's way early, but Heartwood is the initial front-runner in my mind for an all-comers build. While maybe not as sexy as some of the others (hi, Winterleaf), it seems to provide meaningful ranged damage vs Activation Wars, while still having some anti-horde pieces (e.g. pick two (maybe three): Alarielle, Drycha, Durthu/Double Durthu, 3-6 Sword Hunters, or maybe 20-40 Spites), along with a decent # of bodies. Heartwood lists are also looking pretty good even with 5 drops, but remains to be seen if we need that low of a drop-count. One general challenge is how to get off a reliable bonus to move/charge, especially for teleport charges, while staying within a Glade. With Heartwood, have been looking at: 1. Alarielle w/ Throne + Spiteswarm or Cogs Option 1: Throne, Spiteswarm, Verdant (w/ Acorn on Bwraith), puts alpha strike on table + hopefully maintains our ability to have 3 Wyldwoods on table after T1 even if we go second (but the degree of importance now re: multi-Wyldwoods is unclear...) Option 2: Throne, Cogs (slow time), Verdant, 4th spell via Cogs + RR saves for Alarielle, but have to setup/wait for turn 2 strike 2. One Bwraith w/ Acorn and another w/ Throne; Throne cast T1 to then cast Spiteswarm T2 for bonus to move/charge (requires Bwraith staying put T1) 3. One Bwraith w/ Spiritsong Stave and Throne to cast Throne then Spiteswarm; puts alpha strike on table for T1 but you lose Acorn
  5. I'd think 4 of the new Awakened Wyldwood kits (i.e. a total of 12 Citadel Woods "models") should suffice for 1K or under.
  6. Winterleaf Winter's Bite (6's = 2 hits) is melee weapons only... Signed, Fun Killer
  7. Oh, and hi @Mirage8112 + @swarmofseals. I see we're still here for our regular reunion with the new shiny. 🙂
  8. Yeah Doppelgänger was my initial go-to vs GKoT. It does still work in your own turn, but you can no longer cause them to "skip" their activation window entirely. They errata'ed that as well. Let's say you activate Doppelgänger, attack, and the GKoT remains alive. It can then still attack. Of course, in your scenario above, maybe your general has gotten 6" out of dodge and the situation doesn't enable the GKoT to reach the general with its 6" threat (3" pile in and 3" Fanged Maw).
  9. General expectation is most (or all) of the Wargroves will become Stormhost-equivalents, each with their own built-in rules, command traits, artefacts, etc. (i.e., the Wargroves will no longer be one-drop battalions). And then we may see existing non-one-drop battalions, like Household and Forest Folk, maintained with some updates.
  10. After nearly three years and hundreds of games: IMO Wyldwoods have been unequivocally the most frustrating part about collecting, playing, and playing against the faction. I do hope the rumors are true: We'll be able to play the army with one terrain box, like Gloomspite, FEC, Skaven, Khorne, Fyreslayers, and Slaanesh. An initial sense of frustration at their (potential) loss is understandable. As others have said, though, we can use them as regular Citadel Woods terrain, so there's essentially zero loss in our past investment.
  11. Re: #1-#5 above: 1) After six games across two 1 day'ers, it has felt difficult, as expected, to compete with only 20 Dryads. No shock there. 2) Same with the non-one-drop, but all of the losses have been close so far, except the game vs Gorefist, but that game was principally lost on my poor deployment. A non-one-drop seems clearly less forgiving to mistakes, especially in deployment, with more potential for the unexpected. You can find yourself in situations where you can't even get a second or third Wyldwood on the table, due to enemy units getting in your face before you've had a turn, or failing to cast Verdant without Ranu's, etc. 3) Celestant-Prime wasn't that useful over the weekend, but those were my first three games with him. More experience needed. With that said, I was skeptical about his value on paper, especially at 340. If you drop him round 1 to use the comet, I don't know if he'll do enough over the game for his points. If you hold him until round 2, he's still capable of flubbing 5 attacks at 3's to hit, especially with the considerable # of to-hit debuffs in the game. And if you're waiting to strike with him in round 3, that might be too late in the game to make a difference, especially since you'll be playing 340pts down for two rounds. And as everyone knows, with a 3+ save and only 8 wounds, he dies incredibly easily. 4) Unfortunately, Kurnoth Bows didn't do much over the weekend either. I was rolling consistently poor for them. The Wyldwood LoS-blocking wasn't much of an issue, however. It was just the usual frustration with their 4+ to hit that Sylvaneth players have been experiencing over the last couple years, especially now that Look Out, Sir! turns that 4+ into a 5+. I still kind of like the idea of taking 3 of them in a list with Alarielle, so you have the ability to summon 3 more when you need targeted ranged damage (e.g., vs a Tzeentch caster-heavy list). At the same time, it can feel like you're playing 200pts down when they consistently do nothing, and you'd often much rather have 20 Dryads on the board. 5) Drycha's Flitterfuries were solid in the 1 day'er last August, but a little less valuable this weekend. In game 1 vs Khorne, though, they were outstanding, as she never died and continually pinged off a couple mortal wounds on multiple units/heroes each round. It's hard to know how she would've fared in game 2, since my deployment lost that game from the start. And in game 3 vs Nighthaunt, their heroes were too far spread out for Flitterfuries to have much impact. She was consistent on one front, though: She was both worthless in combat and sad/embittered the entire weekend, outside of one round, just before she was about to die to a bunch of pigs. I'd like to try out Squirmlings at a 1 day'er, although it would've only had relevance vs Nighthaunt this weekend. Maybe if you can keep her screened by lots of Dryads, which are then fighting a blob unit, you can have Drycha's Squirmlings in close enough range to do a lot of mortal wounds to that unit. In general, I'm increasingly skeptical about Drycha's value at the moment. Since she dies quite easily and tends to do nothing in combat, you're spending 280pts on her as a 10-wound Wizard and for her Flitterfuries or Squirmlings. If you could actually choose which one she uses each game, she would be more interesting, but since you can only take one for an entire event, you'll often have matchups where she has the wrong one. I'll follow up re: #6-#7 above.
  12. Attended the 1 day'er Realm of Rad yesterday (22 players) with my friend Scott Sproul (who won Best Painted!). It was hosted by Edmond Unplugged, a brilliant FLGS in Edmond, Oklahoma (serving pizza, beer, etc.), and organized by Ben Cornelius of the Lords of the Realms podcast. Thanks so much to them for a fun event! Similar to Siegeworld last Aug, I just wanted to attend with a learning, experimental mindset, in particular to learn more about: How well can Sylvaneth compete without a one drop and with 20 Dryads (+ no Dryad summoning) Alarielle and how to play her (6 games in after getting her a couple months ago) Celestant-Prime's potential value in a Sylvaneth list Kurnoth Bows' present value and in-game realities of playing them with 6+ Citadel Wood bases reducing LoS Whether Drycha is worth it, e.g., whether Flitterfuries can provide enough value (or to do Squirmlings), especially with Wyldwoods blocking LoS How to deploy Sylvaneth non-one-drop in certain matchups How to build a competitive non-one-drop list, with low model count, capable of going 4-1 Played Khorne Council of Blood, Ironjawz Gorefist, and Nighthaunt with a lot of bodies and mix of units. We didn't use realm rules, except below in (). My list (at the event, each caster could take a spell from your battletome, or instead, a spell from your realm of choice, but not both): Alarielle w/ Regrowth Drycha w/ Spellshroud Branchwraith w/ Acorn + Verdant Celestant-Prime 10 Dryads 10 Dryads 5 Spites 3 Kurnoth Bows 3 Kurnoth Swords Prismatic Palisade Game 1, Khorne, Scorched Earth: This one went well. His Bloodthirsters were on his middle and left side, without a lot of support for his middle and right side objectives beyond Flesh Hounds. He should've given me first turn, though, for a chance at the double, as a double from Council of Blood is scary, especially vs low model count. I used teleporting to keep away from him, doing as much ranged damage as possible with Alarielle, 2x3 Kurnoth Bows (Alarielle summoned 1x3), Drycha's Flitterfuries, and the Prime's comet. The Prime dropped early to kill the Flesh Hounds on his right side objective and help chip away in general with his comet. His dice were horrific all game, though. Some of the worst I've seen. Game 2, Ironjawz, Places of Arcane Power: This was the first time facing Gorefist. He he had a supercharged version with 18 Gore-Gruntas, along with starting the game with 4 CP, so 5 CP in round one. His list was excellent. Had a number of cool elements, including Aetherquartz Brooch to try and keep generating extra CP for boosting his Waaaagh!. His army was the very definition of a mobile anvil, designed to keep you pinned in your deployment while his heroes score on objectives. That's what happened, although I made two mistakes that lost the game in deployment, one rather obvious and one a little less so: 1) I was playing pretty casually and not thinking about how hard Gore-Gruntas could hit with the potential to stack so many CP, along with the realities of Smashing and Bashing. In light of that, my key pieces should've been more than 4" behind my screening 2x10 Dryads and 5 Spites. He went first, so that would've meant he would just wipe out the Dryads and Spites, and then face Alarielle, Drycha, 3 Kurnoth Swords, and 3 Kurnoth Bows, along with Alarielle summoning 3 more Kurnoth Swords within 9" of her and 9" from the Gore-Gruntas for an 8+ charge (Warsinger). Alarielle's CA would've gone off as well for RR'ing wounds, and his Waaaagh! would not have been nearly as scary outside of his first initial turn. I think it still would've been a tough game, though, because of the second deployment mistake. 2) Not only didn't I put the key pieces more than 4" away from the screens, I didn't leave enough space to summon Wyldwoods. He had 15 pigs immediately in my face, piling in and taking up lots of space with their big asses (er, bases), so it was impossible to get a launchpad Wyldwood down to get units out of my deployment in order to start threatening objectives. Here's what probably would've been better: stretching my 25-model screen along the deployment line, and then leaving plenty of open space behind them for placing the Acorn Wyldwood, with Alarielle and other key pieces well-off the deployment line and out of the way from where the Acorn Wyldwood would drop. Another issue was I kept failing the Branchwraith's Verdant on a 6+. Not having both Acorn and Ranu's (for a 4+ on Verdant) can greatly hurt our mobility. Despite my oops on deployment, thank you to Tim for the enjoyable game! Game 3, Nighthaunt, Relocation Orb: This game was against a new player, so with the loss in round 2, I just wanted to see how well the list could (or couldn't!) chew through Nighthaunt rather than worrying about the mission. He had a handful of heroes, 3x20 Chainrasp, 20 Reapers, 12 Banshees, and a Black Coach. The obvious stand out was Dryads: -1 to hit + 2 attacks a model makes them ideal vs Nighthaunt. The thought of 20 in cover with a 3+ save (or 4+ vs -1 rend), putting out up to 41 attacks.... The popularity of Nighthaunt is another strong case for the Dryad spam we've been seeing since GHB17. As expected, Kurnoth Swords were pretty good vs Nighthaunt. Alarielle, Kurnoth Bows, and Drycha were underwhelming. Alarielle was hurt, as you'd expect, by the Nighthaunt's common 4+ ignoring rend save. The Celestant-Prime is also negated vs Nighthaunt for the same reason. His comet can help, in principle, but Nighthaunt players are pretty incentivized to spread out their heroes, tying them to different units, based on the buffing role they play in the game. If we had gone 5 rounds, I probably would've chewed through most of the army. Nighthaunt seem pretty tough, though. They have a lot of the right elements to compete on top tables: bodies, mobility, resiliency/healing, damage output, etc. This post is getting along, so I'll follow up with another one shortly. Had a blast at the event, though, and learned a lot. Thanks to my opponents for three fun games! Was also grateful to receive Favorite Opponent/Game!
  13. Hi @Lemon Knuckles, I was curious how your latest version would score the following (current value in parentheses): - Akhelian Leviadon (380) - Aventis Firestrike (360) - Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon (340) - Evocators on Dracolines (300) - Spirit of Durthu (380) - Treelord Ancient (300) - Drycha Hamadreth (280)
  14. Just going for low-model Sacrosanct 2K + allies w/ fave models that could at least pull 3-2 at events. Presently stuck on Prime (seems inefficient but fave SCE model), Arcanum (on foot or Gryph), Castellant, Azyros, 1x10 Seq, 2x5 Seq, 1x6 or 2x3 Kittycators, and 2x10 Eternal Guard. Missing: Non-Scions teleport e.g. Vexillor or Relictor, and ranged damage.
  15. Thanks for the thoughts! Appreciated your non-standard list + excellent write up on the tournament. Slowly getting SCE together as a second army. Have been thinking about 2x10 Eternal Guard as screens (not a fan of Skink models). EG seem like a reasonable buy at 70, but Aetherwings are interesting at 20 less + Scions. No Watchful Guardians synergy, though, since theming around Sacrosanct.
  16. That's the craziest damn list I've seen in a while. Shaun is a madman. How well do you think Aetherwings do as screens in general?
  17. Re: the following five... Endless spells Realm artefacts Realm spells Realm commands Realmscape features I think endless spells stand out as a net-positive for AoS. A nice balance of originality and flavor, light touch (simplicity and non-outsized impact), and $ opportunity. The other four are a net-negative on the AoS experience in my view, at least for MP tournaments, with maybe the exception of realm artefacts. A strength of AoS has been its relative simplicity and elegance. If you're a serious competitive player, you may be happy to invest the effort to become deeply familiar with the above; and you may also not mind the in-game experience of needing to be prepared and capable of both remembering and making sound choices in relation to the additional features. If you're a casual competitive player, you may find the realm elements lessen your enjoyment. They may reflect a crossing point, where the amount of intimate knowledge required to compete becomes burdensome. Personally, I'm casually competitive... The various realm rules feel burdensome, especially when they're having an outsized impact on the game and all my brain wants to do is just ignore the damn things. If going to Holy Wars (a narrative event), and playing on a Realm of Death table with Death scenery + realm spells/features/etc., then absolutely, sign me up. If going to Las Vegas Open's AoS Championship to play competitive AoS, no thanks. They seem to run counter to 'immersion' at a competitive tournament. They add undue complexity without meaningful benefit. With that said, I can live with realm artefacts, but as a solution to one commonly-perceived intent (providing more choice to armies without a battletome), they seem like a bloated approach, again for MP. Ubiquitous artefacts could be modified annually, but unless the design space is better constrained, with less variance in value, then the same issue will continue: A small number of artefacts will be used commonly, and a majority of them will be ignored. Of course, I could be wrong. It happens. A lot. cc: @Vincent Venturella, @Thomas Lyons, @Brendan_Bear, @David Griffin, @Lhw, @ianob
  18. Hi @Lemon Knuckles, thanks very much for this effort. Looking at your latest list of units, I didn't find much to disagree with. Your outputs largely matched up with my personal evaluations. The only area that seemed problematic were some of the shooting units. Your results often seemed to overvalue shooting units relative to my personal sense. The nature and overall landscape of AoS2 has lowered the aggregate value of shooting. I think we've seen this reflected in tournament results over the last six months. To look at a few examples: * Arkanauts - Gunk: 153 | GH18: 120 * Judicators - Gunk: 159 | GH18: 160 * Kurnoth Hunters - Gunk: 211 | GH18: 200 * Savage Orruk Arrowboys - Gunk: 165 | GH18: 140 In each of the above, Gunk doesn't quite match up with my personal valuation, given the collective set of variables in AoS2 that lowers the value, on average, of shooting in the game. (FWIW, personally, I prefer a weighting in AoS that favors, moderately, combat over shooting/magic.) E.g., while I agree 210pts is a reasonable reflection of the value of Kurnoth Scythes and Swords, I think 210pts, or 200pts, is an overestimation of the value of Kurnoth Bows. The same applies with Judicators: In GH17, 160pts seemed spot-on for them, but in GH18, it seems 20pts too high, whereas Gunk thought it was still spot-on. For reference, here's some of the currently-problematic units in the game that I thought your system largely nailed: * Grimghast Reapers - Gunk: 170 | GH18: 140 * Morrsarr Guard - Gunk: 189 | GH18: 160 (note: your spreadsheet had 140, the pts for Ishlaen Guard in GH18) * Witch Aelves - Gunk: 136 | GH18: 100 (I could see some argue 136 is too high; a couple of DoK rules make Witch Aelves especially terrifying currently) * Dire Wolves - Gunk: 79 | GH18: 60 * Sequitors - Gunk: 143 | GH18: 120 * Evocators - Gunk: 232 | GH18: 200 cc: @Thomas Lyons
  19. Just some friendly ribbing my friend. ;-D 74 models is on the lower end compared to quite a few armies.
  20. Some of us still have ethical standards and refuse to play Sylvaneth as a Dryad-horde army, your multiple top 5 finishes be damned. 😜
  21. Hey dendrophiles! Haven't been around in a while, but wanted to pop in and share some recent additions, thanks to the brilliant folks at Unlimited Colours. The sublime Queen herself finally arrived yesterday. Her appearance put me at ease after seeing the (seductive) abomination @Vincent Venturella created last week. That man has issues. Props to all of you doing the Goddess proud at tournaments of late, especially that scoundrel @Lhw. And apparently he won a sports award? Who rigged that vote?
  22. Still not in love with that build. It has some clear flaws, e.g.: a fair # of points in utility pieces that die easily (Dryads, Tree-Revs, Spite-Revs) a more-survivable Ancient who will still often fluff shooting and melee a strong reliance on 6 Scythes as the primary combat punch 100 points in utility magic that could still fail to cast
  23. Thanks for the excellent post @IndigoGirls! I agree with most everything you wrote. On the Strategic Genius command trait, I don't believe you can select that if you're doing Sylvaneth Allegiance, although maybe someone could correct if that's mistaken? Here's a recent iteration on the prior Gnarlroot build: Treelord Ancient Gnarled Warrior Ignax's Scales Regrowth Drycha Hamadreth Regrowth Branchwraith Ranu's Lamentiri Verdant Blessing Branchwych Acorn of the Ages Throne of Vines 10 Dryads 5 Tree-Revenants 5 Tree-Revenants 5 Spite-Revenants 6 Kurnoth Scythes 3 Kurnoth Swords Gnarlroot/Household Chronomantic Cogs Balewind Vortex Couple thoughts on the above: Gnarled Warrior + Ignax's Scales may provide better durability than Ethereal Amulet, at the sacrifice of the +1 from Warsinger combo'ing with Cogs for 6+ teleport charges. Instead, you'll be relying more on Cogs to stay on + relying on 7+ charges with (hopefully) a CP RR, which isn't too bad. In my testing with Ethereal Amulet on Durthu at Siegeworld, mortal wounds were still a consistent problem. If the Ancient has a 3+ save, RR 1's to save, ignore -1 rend, and a 4+ vs mortal wounds via Ignax's Scales, I suspect those elements may provide better return vs a broader range of lists/situations. Ranu's + Verdant stays on Branchwraith, even though not giving her Throne sacrifices Dryad-summoning potential, since I'm just not a fan of trying to cast Verdant on 6+, given how important it usually is to have a reliable means of getting Acorn + Verdant down in round 1. Branchwraith should also often be out of unbind range and still in position to summon Dryads, so I'd rather rely on a 6+ (with +1 from Ranu) for that each round than a 6+ for Verdant. Acorn + Throne stays on Branchwych, but the Balewind has been added for the potential to cast Verdurous Harmony with her while keeping her out of unbind range. Balewind would turn Verdurous' 18" range into 24". The 6 Scythes would be the main target, so if they're mid-table rather than deep in enemy territory, the Branchwych could potentially stay in your backfield out of unbind range while still casting Verdurous onto them with her +D3 from Throne. Potential first-turn order of business for Branchwraith and Branchwych: Branchwych: Acorn > Throne > Cogs > Balewind > up to one more spell Branchwraith: Verdant > Roused to Wrath An additional 5 Tree-Revenants provides another utility unit, e.g., for teleporting into Wyldwoods as a screen with 3 Kurnoth Swords or the Ancient behind them. I'm hopeful the list can get away with only 10 Dryads built-in, with 2x5 Tree-Revs + 1x5 Spite-Revs for early-game screening, especially in a Wyldwood. If it can't, though, an alternative is to swap one of the 5 Tree-Revs and the Balewind for another 10 Dryads + Soulsnare Shackles.
  24. Kind of jealous of the fellow who took Durthu and 18 Scythes to Northern Invasion. Not a fan of spam lists, but that's one of the more straightforward, strong Sylvaneth lists I've seen since they launched in 2016.
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