Requizen

So I've got a cobbled together amount of Daemons and picked up Be'lakor to lead them. I see that most lists are running Kairos in this list as well, is there a particular reason other than him just being very point efficient? Can you compete with LotFP without him?

This is basically the issue. You can describe a trademarked product, or even compare to it in an advertisement or listing. You cannot, however, imply connection or relation. Which is dumb and nitpicky and GW's a bit of a punk for enforcing it, but that's the law and they're legally allowed to.

plenty of Wizard STLS if you have access to a 3D printer

I've been thinking about it and my current thought is that, unless you're really looking for theme, there's nothing we need that COS provides. The only thing they do slighly better is mass volume attacks as opposed to our elite quality attacks, but that's not particularly worth the points. The main thing I personally would want is bodies, in case you're light on Redeemers or are going Scions of the Storm. At which case, why not just Ally Skinks instead of Cities? They're cheaper than any Cities unit, can take a ranged weapon, and are faster. They don't have the 4+ of some of the Cities Battleline, but that's not really why you bring a blobby ally imo. Plus, I've got Skinks painted the same scheme as my Stardrake and Dracothian Guard, so it'll look nice to have the whole family on the table again.

I'd be interested in chatting Ordinator bombs, are you using it as a Scions list and dropping them midfield as a battery? I want to try and figure out some sort of MSU shooting list that plays a spread out, target saturation game, but all our shooting units have gotten so expensive and kind of need support to reach their full potential. I also want to try non-Stormguard Drake style Herohammer with some combination Stardrake, Tauralon, Prime, Krondys/Karazai, mounted Heroes, etc. Not sure if there's a good way to smoosh those together but could be fun.

Yeah @PJetski the Hallowstrike you posted previously is probably a very solid way to wiggle it right now, basically our 3.0 incarnation of Aetherstrike/Anvilstrike. The more things change... Well with that squared away, time to work on other, non-Dragon lists.

Yeah, she definitely doesn't seem like she can strike out by herself and be a huge threat, but alongside a couple other hitters she seems pretty solid to add damage and support. Too bad there's no good speedy unit she can return models to, or at least one that's not awful (cough Prosecutors).

To be fair, you could swap the Sequitors for Vindictors and get enough points to turn Steelhearts into regular Liberators, but I though it would be fun and the points worked out. Good shout on the Saintly Assault, though the charge rerolls still work for everyone. I think you could easily swap Yndrasta for Relictor/Incantor and wiggle some of the Redeemer units around to get 10x Protectors in. Probably a reasonable solution for getting a good Hammer in and more overall utility. Then probably use Warlord to get Mirrorshield on one of the Foot Heroes if you expect the meta to be filthy with shooting. But I disagree that she's not worth her points - ignoring Battleshock, bringing back units, and then being a fast, reasonably damaging hero isn't bad. She's not amazing at either being a support or a true hammer, but she splits the difference pretty nicely imo. I'd at least like to try her out, haven't even gotten a single game since Dominion 😫

While I generally don't care for named characters, Gardus seems almost too good for any deathball/castle build. Even if you're not using his charge ability or combat prowess, a 5+ Ward bubble is so insane. I'm considering running him with a Doubletap Longstrike build just to give them another layer of protection. Thinking a bit: Stormcast - Stormkeep, Hallowed Knights, Thunderbolt Volley Battle Regiment (all, one drop) or Warlord + Redemption Brotherhood (5 Drop, +1 CP/Holy Order for Call For Aid) LAoTauralon - General, Menagerie, Amulet of Destiny (or Mirrorshield), whatever spell Yndrasta Gardus Liberators x5 Vindictors x10 Sequitors x10 Longstrikes x6 Steelheart's Champions 2000/2000 So, if you deploy in a block, you get 5+ ward on everything. Cycle of the Storm + Yndrasta keeps things alive more than they should. Tauralon is making the Longstrikes 2+ to hit in all Shooting Phases until he moves out. Vindictors and Sequitors aren't even bad combat units, especially on the Saintly Assault turn. All your non-Longstrike units are Redeemers in a Stormkeep, so you're pretty good at holding objectives, and if you go Warlord Battalion with Call For Aid, you can bring back one of the Liberator units. And once the Longstrikes did enough damage and you're ready to move out, Yndrasta and the Tauralon are fast and can hit pretty hard. Seems... not awful?

I finally sat down with some better scans and wrote up my thoughts Overall I quite like the book. I think you could easily do a list without Dragons, though obviously they're very strong. But the book isn't just "all dragons" or "double tap shoothammer", there's other stuff to be explored. But yes, Dragonspam is gonna be a thing until they hit them. A unit should probably be closer to 300+.

It's on the Army List, at the back of the Battletome or in the General's Handbook. Again, Monster is the one on the Warscroll, Behemoth is different.

The new Dragons are Monsters, but not Behemoths in the list-building phase. They're one of the few Monsters with that distinction.

Castigators have always been a reasonable pick for MSU shooting spam, dropping groups of 3 around the board for coverage and target saturation is a solid use for them. It's just that double tapping CAs (both old and new) and other builds have been better.

My main annoyance with Palladors is that I built mine as a unit of 6 and in 3.0 I'll never run them Reinforced, ever

One thing that feels a bit overlooked in all this: Big Stabbas down to 80 points! Spam time ☺

Don't care, I can finally run the all Dragon army I wanted to since the game came out. Power, utility, metagame - all else is secondary. Kill Team is cool though 😎

Can't have the Single Fuminator without a LC on Dracoth.

So around a similar pricepoint to 9 Longstrikes + Aetherwings in 2.0, then. But with more wounds and Battleline. Seems a reasonable tradeoff. I'm thinking there might be play for 2x10 as shooting blocks, split up so to cover a lot of board, or 3x5, which loses out on CA power but is more MSU.

I feel like we lost a lot of exploding combo stuff, which felt pretty iconic. Arrowboyz aren't nearly as terrifying now, though shooting in general still isn't awful. Interestingly, I think a big winner is the Rogue Idol. Still benefits from a lot of the good stuff, Spirit of the Were-Boar and Wierdnob's spells both work on him, and with that once-per-game 4+ Ward, he might be a real force to be reckoned with.

I haven't done any point fiddling yet (squinting at my phone to read changes all morning), but overall I feel happy with the book. Shooting builds seem overall pretty good, got pricier and we lost Aetherwings (RIP), but we gained some solid shooting power (MWs on Judis, all XBows explode, etc) and a MSU shooty build could be back on the menu depending on points. Anvilstrike is basically all but dead - Hero Phase shooting doesn't require Anvils anymore, but without Aetherwings keeping us safe, it's much harder to prevent charges. I guess you could Ally or Stormkeep in some cheap Cities units or Skinks? Vanguard Chamber getting teleports across the board except Raptors doesn't do a whole lot to make up for their overall low damage, but it is a pretty interesting way to play the game. Imagine trying to pin down a full Vanguard list, seems basically impossible. Paladins seem pretty solid. I could see some sort of slow push Stormkeep build with lots of Redeemers + Protectors backed up by buffing Heroes. Maybe worth a look. But most importantly: DRAGONS! Stardrake looks baller now. Excellent Monster build Command Trait. Dracothian Guard look good. The new Stormdrakes feel insanely good, probably will end up picking up 3 boxes for my non-Hammers full Dragon build. The new big boys are certainly solid, but 600 is a pretty tough sell. Even the Celestant on Dracoth seems not terrible. Good time to be a dragon fan. I'm currently quite optimistic, will try to make some lists today.

Well now everyone knows I'm blind.

Are Ballistas ever taken over Sentinels for the given points? 25 points less, but half the wounds (gain a 6+ ward), 1/3 the shots (better rend and damage), no MWs, gain the blinding shot and hit bonus. Seems... ok(?) trade for purposes of utility, but for scoring objectives, mobility, and basically everything else Sentinels seem better.

Vanquishers might be ranged but something like Raptors or Castigators with min size 3, at which point baseline battleline with good shooting, 125 would be pretty reasonable. Or maybe they'll just be broken 🙃

Why Severith? For the same price you can nearly get 3 Knight-Venators, which trade the silly dancing around for the ability to spread out and use any in-faction synergies

I'm definitely struggling to try and keep them in. Removing charges is insanely powerful and felt like a cornerstone of old Anvils, but we also don't know if that ability will make the new book (or Anvils CA for that matter). In the meantime I'm running two Hurricane Raptor units with Aetherwings for more denial focus with 15 Judis. Yes to all.