Aezeal

I think household (and basicly all our batallions) do not give a lot in comparison to other army books (at least in comparion to the batallions I see on the table). While I usually take a unit of T-revs to force the opponent to keep something back, hopefully more points and thus giving us an edge (in points at least) elsewhere on the table as mentioned before.. however.. in combat efficiency they lag a lot behind other units so even a unit of 20 will have a hard time actually conquering an objective so I'd hesitate to try and use a unit of 20 for that purpose. I think assuming +1 attack from archrev or harvestboon is not the most likely scenario when attacking a backline objective after a teleport btw (especially with a unit of 20). Also it's another 100 points and 1 CP.

Results I've read about online don't seem to back this but maybe I'm mistaken. Except you need room for the forest and the dryads 9" out of enemy range.. and enemies will usually be at the objectives at that point and other places are less interesting late game. If I don't have first turn most armies are so quick that after their first move there isn't much room for forest in interesting locations (for me that is in enemy territory or in midline) Also: a 6+ and a 7 + cast and neither of them should get unbound which is getting a problem these day. In my winterleaf builds (which will be the same for all build except those which get a casting item) I often have problems getting a 2nd forest on the table because enemies seem to crash my spells left and right. Summoning dryads is really getting hard for me. I don't think 24 bow hunters will be a winning strategy against most armies tbh.. if I thought it was good I might try it (with proxies) but I really don't think their damage output is anything near enough to win games.. and their mobility and lack of bodies means you'd need to win games by damage output Seems an expensive back up just for that. Yeah. Maybe.. the powercreep in other books is a thing though maybe not yet enough to say it should be lower... Yeah.. really odd.. our strongest stuff gets cheaper.. It's been said before.. but still.. really gonna lock us into these units instead of improving in-army balance. Everything that helps us is nice.. but lowering these while weaker stuff stays the same is still an odd choice.

True... point drop across the board would help a lot for non magic based builds. While dreadwood reliability wouldn't increase much some other build might just get the extra hitting powers, staying power or bodies they need.Thing is.. points drops will also work for LC so LC will probably remain the better choice to play with (this is from hearsay... have yet to try this.. but will). But compared to newer books not that great unless they get a lot of point increases.. I'm still sore about my coalesced game.. and if his army stays the same I still don't know how to deal with that. I was nearly tabled in 3 turns and he only lost a few models. Now me and my dice take some blame for that... but the difference was really terrible. True.. If I see what others get for 140 points (that THunderlizard batallsion I played against for example)... it's insane.. LOL last time I played nurgle is a while ago but assuming warscrolls are somewhat similar last 2 years.. it's still odd.. then 5 BK blendered 3 hunters (they got the charge but considering the stuff they can do with their trees I think that will be generally the case) I think that very good players can probably get a little more out of the army... but that isn't good. I don't need an easy army. But currently I feel like only our top 5% players will be getting above 50% win% in a competative setting.

TL: All TL variants have an insane drop in efficiency after only a few wounds.. Way worse than anything else I see on the table (other armies might have some monsters that have it worse.. but then they aren't played). I think Durthu should get another woundbracket with 6 flat damage. TLA should get 2 spells and/or +1 to cast. (or maybe something like mount choices some armies have, possible +2 to cast, possible +1 spell, spell range, and extra wounds or something) RegularTL should get some improvement on the damage table as well.. it's not bad for it's points.. it just GETS bad. Also: TL are tough monsters.. but a lot of stuff currently has more wounds or gets much more wounds (yes.. this is my coalesced experience again) I think another 2 wounds on either all variants or at least TLA and Durthu would be nice. Tree rev: Tree-rev currently are only a viable choice because of teleport and cheapness. Making them 10/140 and 30/350 with an extra attack would change their roll drasticly (and more inline with lore) but still not make them overpowered I think. They'd be medium powered infantry with high mobility. They'd loose their speedbump roll except in dire need. I think our army shouldn't be about cheap speedbumps but about preservation (or use spites if needed since they are outcasts). And they an affordable 10-20 of them could actually take an objective that is defended in a turn or 2. (maybe not make them 30/350 btw since teleporting units of 30 everywhere is not good for balance in the point scoring part of the game) Spites and dryads are nice as they are but points might need to be dropped due to powercreep in other books. All 5 wound hero's are just... very vulnerable in the current game. There is a reasons CoS has special mechanisms to defend them as generals. Our Arch rev can be somewhat important in strategies but is way to vulnerable as is. The solution isn't easy imho giving each army the same rule as CoS is an option but wouldn't even be that great for us (since archie is s mobile). Just giving archie more wound would mean other models should get it too and I don't think that will happen. Giving all 5 wound generals 2 extra wounds would be a possible idea. I realize my views are a bit Sylvaneth biased

So since GG are not in the CoS book.. is using GG as SoW without further conversion generally accepted? Since there is only 1 wanderer archer left (in this book, officially the GG are still a thing I guess (till next GHB?) but noone is gonna play any old army that is in this book outside of CoS right?) I used to take my old waywatchers as SoW but with points reductions you only play them instead of GG so you need about... 30 + of them and I don't have that many WW (and I've got plenty GG). So T1 you move (into shooting range) then shoot, command ability on end shooting phase, move again for 1 CP and then charge? Allarielle gets a huge threat range then (if you want her solo into combat that is).

Ow that great stag as some heavy cavalry from Stormcasts is a NICE idea. Same for warhawks/great eagles. Are gyro's a good thing for living city?

Is wardroth horn the go to item for living city? Not some regular item?

Yeah I thought deepstriking that unit might not be a bad idea at all. Or a unit of 12 hunters and Archie and just engage everything they've got at once. @ +1 to hit and +1 attack (and +1 to wound from Skeath's Wild Hunt) BTW In living cities would you go battlemage with wildform ; cogs or hive (on a sylvaneth caster)?

The Seraphon get to set up their terrain before other terrain is setup (at least that is how it was explained to me and a quick glance seemed to confirm that. Would be ideal for our first book.. but how do TO's deal with that rule? That list looks nice and the sure teleport seems a good idea. And not reliant on magic at all yay. Would an archrevenant not help that list btw? What hits harder? 30 rangers or 6 hunters

I agree with him too. Tree revenants. They are too weak offensively to take an objective that has ANYTHING guarding it. Summoning trees should become a prayer and wraiths should become priests (and give the summon spell to wyches then instead of their useless spell - wait it's GW: just make a new priest model they can sell ). Having 2 wraith that can get a forest on a 3+ isn't odd considering what Khorne priests can pull off.. and it's even fluffy I'd say. We have a goddess in our army and no priest for that religion. A 66% chance is not a full proof way for a strategy but it's better than nothing. I think Kaylethia isn't completely wrong: our army is reasonablly internally balanced.. which means all of our stuff is about average (hunters slightly above) BUT since other armies all are less balanced people you face will often only be bringing their BEST stuff ... so even if 2/3 of their warscrolls are abysmal that doesn't matter if you only face the 3-4 warscrolls that are better than the rest of their army and sadly also better than anything in our army. Going back to my original post: I'm pretty sure my Seraphon opponent has warscrolls and battallions that would make his army way less strong ... but he has access too Slann, salamanders and bastilladons.. and a batallion that migitates their weaknesses ... so he brings them. I can't fault him I'd bring those too when playing coalesced.

I agree with all your points. My opponent hadn't played for over a year so both of us didn't know his list was much stronger than mine so I'd not taken a top grade list (as I said.. just a bit of everything). I especially agree on not relying on magic. I don't rely on it this was actually the first time I took spite and I didn't play Dreadwood but winterleaf. Though I loved magic tree at start of AoS (and I hope we'll get it back; Allarielle not having a +2 to cast being a goddess is odd, and while treelord ancients are no slann they are described as wise powerfull mages.. in the current game 2 spells and +1 to cast on them wouldn't be out of line... probably even without point increase). Magic as it is is pretty unreliable for basic mages (unless you have a starmaster with 3 spell @ +2 to cast and unbind and a reroll ofcourse). It's just that I had some points to spare and because I did know seraphon was magicky but didn't know HOW strong I figured a third caster for a 3th unbind might be usefull (of course.. that was a complete illusion. Against his list any point invested in magic was worthless.. and any points in characters too since he can just snipe anything in a few turns with the combination of the Slann spell and running and shooting bastilladons. Combined with his -1 D (min 1) I figure the best against his army is just spamming wounds.. tons and tons of dryads and spites and stuff to buff them might be the best option. And while I agree melee hunters are generally our best bet (will take your advice on taking 2x 6 and forgetting bows in general) I think against this list they might not even be worth it since damage of swords is halved and damage of scythes is.. well not doing the math but I think it's probably lowered by about 1/3 or 3/8. I might try living city (using my old WW or GG as sisters since noone really field GG anyway I think)

So I had not played in a while due to COVID regulations. First game against the new Seraphon. I had taken a bit of a mixed list: Drycha, Arch rev, 2x wraith, 1x 6 swords, 3 scythes, 3 bows, 20 spites, 30 dryads and 5 T revs and the hive. He played Coalesced (apparently not even the best lists/lists played in tournaments according to my opponent) 1 slann, 1 EotG, 1 Stegadon with something shooty, 2 bastilladon (shooty), 1 OB on carnosaru, 5 knights, 5 TG and 2 salamanders While it was fun to play again I couldn't do much. So a bit of a rant below, don't read if you don't like to hear complaining. Summary: Before I could play my 3th turn I was nearly tabled (3 sword hunters - in a combat they'd loose, 2 bow hunters and 3 dryads - also in a combat they'd loose- remaining) and was already behind on points. Now I'll readily admit I made tons of mistakes but it seems to me his book is way better than ours in almost every phase. He didn't use fancy tactics either.. just shoot and magic half my army away while moving melee elements my way.. and even in melee he had the advantage. Command abilities: He has several good abilities and generates enough points to make use of them Batallion: The option to run and charge or run and shoot means one of his bastilladons had essentially the same range as hunters. The alternative to get +1 attack on the batallion is a very good alternative too. Sure it's a bit more expensive than most of ours but it's quite a bit better than the stuff we take mostly to get items and it adresses one of the weaker points in his army (while ours are a bit fluffy.. but also weak and unneeded often). Magic: A slann killing 2 of my 5 wound characters in 2 turns with magic (@ +2 to cast) and damaging the arch rev so that it's gone too in his 2nd turn shooting phase. And the same Slann unbinds all my spells at +2 (due to some artefact) and having a reroll on that once per hero phase is just nasty. I think I got to try to cast 6 spells the whole game and all failed or where unbound. Shooting: His shooters have less range than my bow hunters (however see batallion.. it's not that bad) but do about 1.5 times the damage I think.. and bastiladons have enough range so they can hit something and do that damage. The Salamanders have a pretty low range.. sure but -2 rend . He had nearly half my army gone after 2 magic and shooting phases I think. Combat: All damage against him is at -1 D (min1) making sword hunters effectively useless. And his bastiladons are pretty hard to kill too (unless with MW .. but our magic that needs to do that damage is unable to do it). His Old blood on carnosaur was pretty terrifying with all the buffs it had (yes some cost CP but his slann generates those too) - +1 to hit, +1 to jaw attack and I think something else too... which means his melee is ALSO better than anything I could put against him. Slann with temple guard is pretty hard to kill too (especially at -1 D) Movement : Sylvaneth does have better base movement overall and we have teleport options (though when it's near impossible to place a 2nd forest that is limited). But he had options to give a battalion run and shoot or run and charge in essential turns. Am I missing something? I think I'll be playing again against this guy so I'd really like to know if it's really as bad as I think it is and if not I'd like some pointers in the right direction about how to play this. Even if I tailor a list against him (mostly 1 damage so it's not lowered by the coalesced ability maybe) I just don't see enough potential there to make this a somewhat even match-up.

I read just what you say (not much knowledge about the soecific warscrolls otherwise) I understand means internal balance is suboptimal between battleline and non battleline, and while battle line is supposed to be a bit of a tax it's more than average in this army). However being the cheapest battle line in a given army is apparently a huge thing in this case making them better than the other choices. Not having cheap speedbumps and cheap battle line is a design choice I think. It represents the eliteness(?) Of the army .. an army which has an otherwise broad choice of units and tactics I'd like to point out.

If they are still used that much they ain't that bad. The other battleline options are obviously worse if you pick libs over them.

Nice Across.. but we've just had a book so don't get your hopes up.

Is LOS used/usable in some way?

About Alarielle: I've played her in most of my games and I'm not that happy with her so I left her out of the equation :D. Yesterday I played this 1500 list (2 battleline) : I had 10 dryads, 5 spites, drycha, TLA, archie, 6 scythes and 3 bows (and palisade and wyrm). Opponent played CoS with lots of phoenixguard. We played focal points. It was my first game with a unit of 6 scythe hunters (mostly been played scythes, swords in 3's) yesterday. I gave my opponent first turn and he confidentely moved his big unit of 20 PG backed by the ice phoenix to the middle objective.... I charged, +1 attack CP and winterleaf artefact double hit.... totally destroyed the unit (significant overkill I might add) despite -1 to wound, save and invulnerable save. Review of some of the options mentioned before based on that game: The arch rev was nice.. especially since I needed a carrier of the frozen kernel anyway so he's a real force multiplier in winterleaf - other character options usually don't want to hang that close to the hunters. And his movement helps keeping them in range of whatever he wants. Even if the hunters are going to charge - his high move mean he can pass them in the movement phase and then the hunters can pass him when charging. Less easily done with slower characters. Basicly a 100% include IMHO. I was happy with Drycha (as always, I nearly always use her), she might his slightly less hard than 1,5 unit of hunters but her speed and strong shooting do give her options which complement hunters (character/small unit sniping, objective claiming or threatening. For me she's a 100% include currently (in my Alarielle hating period at least) and trying to be a bit more objective I'd say a 80% include.. having a dispel is always nice as is regrowth (which she generally has). Maybe if you have a lot of shooting and movement options you'd prefer to take her out for more hunters.. but I think she's very useful. I was less happy with the TLA. Getting the spells cast and not unbound is a real issue (as all magic.. I think magic is too weak in AoS atm especially when comparing too say.. Khorne priests who also have easy options to make it much more reliable to mention get multiple prayers each turn). The TLA didn't do much except put the 2nd forest down (which .. again.. as often... I didn't use to teleport.. though it was nice to have the option if the game wasn't so one sided in my favour). His shooting never got through, he got attacked by the phoenix and didnt' do much in combat either. He cast the wyrm once which did 1 damage to the phoenix and healed him for 3 (which was nice, when I have a few points leftover I guess I'll take that spell again since it's cheap). Didn't use the palisade at all. PS I think I should've dropped the palisade and taken tree revenants instead of spite so I could threaten his objectives better. That would be the first step in improving the list, not switching hunters in or out

That leaves the question which things are worth dropping hunters for (lets take full hunters and min spites as the baseline): -TLA? -wraith? -Archie? -Drycha? -A large unit of dryads -outcast batallion I think all of them are contenders but I'm not quite sure on what is optimal.

I tried a first game against Fyreslayers (with a.o. 20 berserkers in the annoying lodge.. so it was a unit with -1 to wound, fighting 2x (often rr 1 on hits and rerolling all wound rolls, with a 3+ and 4++ at least ). How does one deal with that. I tried to avoid him and roadblock him but I'd not taken that much chaff with me. Then he got a charge on my 6 scythe hunters (who where positioned for countercharging.but he got a longish charge of)... and they where gone . POOOOF gone in one turn (2 got to hit back inbetween his attacks since he didn't attack the 2nd time with them right away... else they'd not even have hit back).... while he only got 8 of the 20 in fighting range. He also got Alarielle in LOS of his shooting dwarfs.. and 10 of them got her to 2 wounds in one round of shooting (tactical retreat saved her).

Well it's really up to preference. I prefer to have 30+ dryads and 15 spite revenants to have flexibility to choose between minimum outcasts for battle line or do some thing with more bodies ( max dryads unit for discount and or max spite unit for discount - point discount that is). Then A wraith.. After that it's just piling on the fun stuff and that mean hunters, trees (build all 3 options with your 3 boxes) and characters. When I look at your list I think you are short - some dryads for the battle line part. For the heavy hitters Id start with - Drycha : she is a great model, great rules and you don't have her yet. (oops missed her) - 1-2 units of hunters because they are great After that - more hunters Or - Alarielle All depending on playstyle ofcourse but this gives you some options to build armies since you already have made a decent start

I love the Gotrek model but hate the fact the scenic base isn't the one for official game play so I've not bought him yet

Ok I've tried to put up a picture showing it..- and finally suceeded Anyway. The "hair" of TL is just below the inner arch of the gates with the TL standing on the ground (not on the level of the gate up the stairs). Sorry for these mostly unpainted models. The TLA and Durthu I actually use are in their transportbox.

To be fair it has been lore for years they live and fight together. The fact you don't like it doesn't change that.

12 hunter 1 archrev 1 wraith and some forests.

Does that include the difference in unbind chance too?