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AlexScipio

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  1. Yes, punctuation matters as you recall, yes. But what happens if we analyce each sentence: You must make a battleshock roll for each unit that has to take a battleshock test. Ok, this unit has models that has been slain, ok, i must make that roll. To make a battleshock roll, roll a dice. Ok, i roll a d6. Add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn to the dice roll, and add 1 to the unit’s Bravery characteristic for every 10 models that are in the unit when the test is taken. Ok, so i add the number of slain miniatures this turn. If the modified battleshock roll is greater than the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, the battleshock test has been failed. Ok, the total is 12 on the modified dice roll against 10 on modified bravery, ok, the test is failed. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit must flee. Ok, 2 model flee You decide which of the models from your units flee Ok, this and this. – remove them from play and count them as having been slain. (If count as slain before been removed from play) Ok, so 2 more miniatures are slain. Ok, come back to step 3, because 2 more miniatures has been slain this turn, and the rule says i add that number to the roll and it doesnt say i do not add miniatures that are counted as slain after roll that dice. Oh, F, other 2 miniatures count as been slain, so i must add it as it is says in step 3. Oh, F, other 2 more, and go on until no more models are in that unit, because of the rule doesnt says that the sequence finishes when you remove theese models. If we consider that flee triggers the same efects that been slain, we have this bug, because if not trigger all the efects is cheating. I mean, if a rule ask for slain models and flee models counts, that must be the same in all rules which ask for slain models (including this bug), and this is in this way for inner coherence of the system, if A = B and A -> C, then B -> C But if we consider that flee and been slain are only the same after been removed from game, that bug never happen, for example, tzeentch cant split horrors that flee, because they are not slain, but, as they count as slain, a tzeentch player can resurrect them with the banner or the spell. As @Ganigumo said In addition, this happens with all that are similar, OBR harvester dont create news mortek when a enemy fails a battleshock test because they flee, and flee is not been is slain, it count as, there is some diference. Destroying units are a good example, if flee count as been slain, why mention both? why not only slain? Flee count has been slain for rules that affects a units removed from play, because you remove them from play and count them as having been slain. And here comes the second point, this: Your example is a language tramp, what if we ask to that group to "jump and take a seat", how many will to both at same time and how many will jump first and after that seat? or if we ask them to "wake up and take a shower". And this faq : Q: If several abilities are triggered at the same time (at the start of a hero phase, for example), how do you determine the order in which they are used? A: If several abilities can be used at the same time, the player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities first, one after the other, in any order they desire; then the player whose turn is not taking place uses their abilities, one after another, in any order they desire. The same principle applies to any other things – such as command traits or artefacts of power – that can be used simultaneously. Note that abilities used at the start or the end of a phase still count as being used in the phase in question. It only speak about abilities (artefacts and command traits are referred in the rule book as allegiance habilities), not simultaneous rules, so it is an indication that there is a sequence always in core rules. About this: My bad, i only mean some players, a few ones, obviously not all the community. Its like the one who tries to exploit Katakros or the "inmortal bastiladon" before the faq. Most players have good faith, and TO of course are not idiots,they do their best, and its normal that there are diferents decisions, it happens in real life to with law, its perfectly normal. And not all people knows how a rules sistem works with it inner rules and inner coherence, in the same way not all people know how a engine works or how a telephone works. Its normal. And you are right. Doubt about people good faith is a toxic attidude and i must apologize because i was refering to a minority I had some bad experience with in chat groups from my country, people that insult your mental health for have a different opinion and give arguments about you think diferent, calling me some things i dont know if i cant writte here because of the rules. So i'm sorry for not speak properly and explain that i was referencing that kind of player that are a minority (that in my country some group of them are in the tzeentch, OBR and Seraphon chats). And at least, the most important rule, is the final step of rules clarification that GW give to the players to resolve question about the rules. If you wrote to the faq mail a bot anwers you with 5 steps to resolve this questions in a game.
  2. So, if it is simultaneos, reed the 2 paragraphs before. Flee models count to battleshock test, because if they count as slain and you add to the test all the models that are slain that turn, you must add models that flee too, because they count as slain on the table. "You must make a battleshock roll for each unit that has to take a battleshock test. To make a battleshock roll, roll a dice. Add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn to the dice roll, and add 1 to the unit’s Bravery characteristic for every 10 models that are in the unit when the test is taken. If the modified battleshock roll is greater than the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, the battleshock test has been failed. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit must flee" The rule doesnt say slain models before the roll is made, rules doesnt say you cant modify that roll after doing it, rules only says add the number of slain miniatures to the dice roll, and speaks about the modified roll and modified bravery characteristic. Besides that, in AoS there can be only simultaneos habilities, not rules, faqs only speaks about habilities that happens at the same time, not rules. And maybe you should listen to your father and your partnera bit more, "and" is a conjuction that joins sentences, and not always are used to express simultaneos actions, phrases like "i woke up and i had a shower" or "do the dishes and clean your room" are not simultaneous; "And" means also "as a result" with the same valor as "then" and no need to be stated, it depends of the context, like in "bring the flowers into a warm room and they'll soon open", and the context is given by the slain rule, where GW sais that a model is first slain and removed from play, not removed for play and counted as slain. Also, rules use a diferent verbal time, doesnt say "count them as slain" but "have been slain", so they are not slain on the table at the same time when they are removed. And great for your father and your partner and your friend, i'm an attorney, i work every single day with rules written by drunk monkeys, so i feel for you. its not a language thing, its a "law" thing, all rules sistems has "inner rules" about application and interpretation. And one more time, if they count as slain at the same moment they are removed from play, they count as slain for ALL RULES, not just the good ones (same for gotizar harverster hability, it doesnt trigger when a model flees near it)
  3. The point with the foolishness with battleshock is prove that the sentence has an order of actions for some reason, the way it is written matters: if you count them as slain and then remove from play, battleshock phase destroys the game RAW because they has been slain, not fleed, because if flee and slain were the same thing, and if are the same thing ALL RULES that ask for a slain model will be trigger or count flee models, but if you remove it first from game and then, outside the table, count them as slain, game go on with no bugs because it will be the same thing only outside the table, and LoN resurrection or tzeentch resurrect can works normaly with that models that flee, because outside the table flee models count as been slain (and it is because you first of all must remove them from play). The order of words in a sentence matters, always matters. ok, this need a FAQ, all here agreed that, but if we are talking about AoS rules, can you quote rules? i mean, i'd played 9th age where flee works in the way you say, but its not AoS. I acusse some tzeentch players about cheating because if they say flee = slain, and if they are slain when flee before removing from the game, there is a bug in battleshock phase about that, the bug do that when a unit fails a test it is automatically destroyed (if you reed the rule as really is written). And as EMMachine says in the answer given to you, destroyed by faq means fleed and slain, if they are the same thing, why does GW need to say that? They count as slain, so, they are destroyed. Thats because flee and slain are not the same and, on table, doesnt trigger the same rules and habilities, and outside the game, when you has removed them from play, flee count as slain. In adition, slain rule says " Once the number of wounds allocated to a model during the battle equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place a slain model to one side – it is removed from play." The order of actions is just the opposite when it flees, first is slain and then you remove it from play. When flee first remove the model from game and count them has been slain. If we play Rules As Written, we must apply that to ALL THE SYSTEM, not to 6 words in a sentence, and we must observe the order in sentences and every comma, dot, and every other rule, because if it is written in some way that matters.
  4. i'm sorry for answering you in that way 😅 i'm feed up with "its RAW, it count as slain" but only for the good things and the bad dont apply, and the RAW only apply to that part of the rule, and everything else is RAI, even if you read the rulebook in front of them 😅
  5. But why the only part that count is "count as slain" and not the "remove from play" that came first? and why if you split in battleshock not count them to battleshockt test? i mean, they are slain in the turn, so you must add that number to the roll just as the rule says. The rule is not "count as have been slain", is "remove from play and count them as have been slain", and the sentence says it in one order, not "count them as have been slain and remove it from play", if we play RAW it must affect all the system, not to a copule of words with no context. Rules as written means rules as are really writting, respecting every comma, dot and the order of words in the sentences and i wrote GW so many times about that
  6. some people didnt know how save rules works and some said that save of 1+ meaned that any result in a dice roll always saved, and even 1s was not a fail. others said that rend caracterist afect the 1+ save, and if you have rend -10, for example, you fail it. And in the rulebook says the same that the bastiladon faq says, but in diferent places
  7. GW is not the problem, players are. Same that bastiladon save characteristic. Been slain RAW is one thing and flee is other thing, sequence in both cases are not equal, and if we play rules as written there is no problem, they dont split. But the problem is that its only raw when it interest for cheating. I mean rules as written means rules as are truly written, doing everything in the same way that are write, in the same order as are written, and knowing that if an ability modifies a rule, any restrictions that apply to that rule still apply unless specifically noted otherwise And if count as slain por split, count as slain for everything, not only the split part, otherwise is cheating
  8. Ok, if you want RAW you got RAW. First of all, battleshock phase doesnt says that, not at all, it says it (if you quote a rule do it right): "You must make a battleshock roll for each unit that has to take a battleshock test. To make a battleshock roll, roll a dice. Add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn to the dice roll, and add 1 to the unit’s Bravery characteristic for every 10 models that are in the unit when the test is taken. If the modified battleshock roll is greater than the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, the battleshock test has been failed. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit must flee. You decide which of the models from your units flee – remove them from play and count them as having been slain" There is no THEN anywhere. It says if the "modified roll" is bigger than the modified characteristic one model flee for each point of diference between the dice roll and the characteristic. In nowhere says the test cant be modified after rolling it, and it says you MUST add the models that have been slain in THIS TURN to the dice roll, it do not say "slain models before de roll is made", no, it says all the slain models in THAT TURN" and battleshock phase is part of the turn. Thats the same with Petrifex Elite Comand Ability, you can use it after saves rolls are made but before determinig the damage and rend afect to the save rolls In second place, you say the sentence has an order: first the roll and after you remove it, ok, but the same structure is in "remove from play and count them as have been slain", first you must remove from game and after that you must count them as have been slain. is it the same "break that egg and fry it" than "fry that egg and break it"? Language have some rules that the average AoS player seems to ignore, and the order of words in a sentence is also a language rule. A logic rule, if A -> C and A=B then B ->C, its basic. So if Flee (A) = Slain (B), ALL the rules that ask for slain miniatures (ALL of them, not only the one that benefits some players) apply to Flee models, all "But they are simultaneus", that is false, its a sequence, rules are not simultaneus, only habilites can be simultaneus because of the faqs only speak about habilities that happens at the same time, and flee is not an hability, its a rule, so the order of actions must be done in the same way they are writen, because are we talking about RAW, right? if the sentence is writing in some order why do people change that order?
  9. i know the result i suggests it's absurd, obviusly, its a foolishness. but it is because flee and slain is not the same thing. Rules doesnt say "models that flee are slain", but "models that flee are removed from play and counted as have been slain". If GW wanted slain and flee were the same they had wrote that in other way, but if the wording is diferent so that should mean something, because of language economy. But if we play assuming flee and slain are the same for some rules, it must be for all rules and when we see "slain" it means "slain and flee" because flee count as slain with no condition, including battleshock phase, because of RAW my reductio ad absurdum is true, rules doesnt say "slain models before the roll is made", says "slain models in that turn" and battleshock phase is part of the turn. And if horrors split when they flee they must be counted in the battleshock test you've done in the same way you can use petrifex command hability after saves rolls are made but before determinig the damage. Rules doesnt says you cant add a modifier to a dice roll after made it.
  10. so, do the horrors that flee count as slain for all effects in rules? what about battleshock tests? in a battleshock test you must add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn to the dice roll (not before the roll is made, the number in all the turn), so if they count as slain, horrors that flee should count to that test because they have been slain in that turn, so you should add that to the test you did (rules doesnt says that you cant add mofiers to a dice roll after doing that, petrifex command ability is the example that you can indeed do it) and if they fail the test all the unit should flee 🤔
  11. and why do they do that? Which rule allows them to split when flee?
  12. hi, OBR player from Spain. I also have Seraphon (old 9th Age army, i'm still changing their bases), nighthaunt and a bit from Stormcast Eternals.
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