vicar1492

How about this? Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: Living CityLeadersNomad Prince (110)- General- Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan- Artefact: Wardroth HornSorceress (95)- Lore of Leaves: LifesurgeArch-Revenant (105)Yndrasta (300)Battleline20 x Sisters of the Watch (360)10 x Sisters of the Watch (180)10 x Eternal Guard (125)Units6 x Kurnoth Hunters (430)- Scythes10 x Vindictors(280)Total: 1985 / 2000Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 113 I could change around the artefacts and core battalions and such. I want vindictors to accompany Yndrasta since she can bring back a model to them every turn. But this puts a larger block of hunters to benefit from the CA and the horn. Which means that block can get 30 attacks in a round where I use the CA and the horn. I envision yndrasta, the vindictors and the 20xsisters to be the block I drop in where needed. Vindictors screen for the sisters and yndrasta can charge in with strike and melt away.

I recognize the value of spear which is what I would normally take. My consideration with the horn is that it stacks with the arch revenants command ability. So those kurnoth in one turn could go from 3 attacks to 5 attacks a piece for a single CP and using the horn. The eternal guard point is well taken though. I'll look at wild riders.

What are people's thoughts on this? Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar - City: Living City Leaders Nomad Prince (110) - General - Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan - Artefact: Wardroth Horn Runelord (100) Doralia van Denst (115) Yndrasta (300) Branchwych (90) - City Role: General's Adjutant - Spell lore: Lifesurge Arch-Revenant (105) - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny Battleline 10 x Eternal Guard (125) 10 x Sisters of the Watch (180) 10 x Sisters of the Watch (180) Units 10 x Irondrakes (160) 10 x Phoenix Guard (175) - City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models) 5 x Vindictors (140) 3 x Kurnoth Hunters (215) - Scythes Total: 1995 / 2000 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 108 I'd fit in the warlord core battalion for the extra enhancement and then maybe go for the one drop one or the hunters one on my Frontline guys to protect against monsters. I could possibly even get a second warlord one in for more enhancements. I really want a good mix of all 3 available factions to LC. Reserve a unit of Sisters, Yndrasta, the runelord, irondrakes, and vindictors. Eternal guard, arch-revenant, and kurnoth are a roaming band, saving wardroth horn to get them a ton of attacks in when needed with the arch revenants CA. Cluster the general, Phoenix guard, branchwych and a unit of Sisters together. It's low on casting but has potential to really benefit from the wound healing each round. Doralia is for taking out enemy casters/endless spells, so that's kind of the answer to stopping enemy casting.

Anyone else notice the subtle removal of all cursed city units except soulblight gravelords? I know I'm probably in the minority on this, but my lists needed those units for cheap utility. That priest hero was one of 2 CoS priests available.

I totally understand this, FEC is not my primary faction, but I feel the same way about Tzeentch (which I play the most). I don't interpret any offense in the bitterness and I'd just request you do the same for me. I'm not intending personal attacks, though I can see how you would take it that way. I apologize if that veered into direct affronts to you. I had to go back and look at the cards and I see you're correct, I guess originally in my mind the Chosen of the King required the unit using it to have the leader runemark - but maybe what I was thinking of is that the Crypt Horror had the leader runemark rather than the elite one in the Tome of Champions. I don't know that this changes my position, only because apparently it has always been the way that it should be to prevent logical inconsistencies. Since you can take the Haunter as a non-leader character he always still has access to Chosen of the King if you setup your roster a particular way. I'd also point out that the original visibility issue still applies, if they wanted to just say, "friendly fighter" then the Haunter could count himself. I'll restate my main point, because I'm not sure anything has been said that counteracts it: Before hero units there were 2 incompatible readings of those abilities. The haunter had an ability he could never use if you read visibility to not include oneself, and the Royal Hunt ability had an ability which contained a contingent clause that was never actually contingent if you read visibility to include oneself. In that scenario, neither interpretation was wholly accurate because there were counteracting inconsistencies. My primary point is that now with the GA books, both abilities function if you read visibility to not include oneself, while the opposite reading results in the same inconsistency as before with Royal Hunt, a contingent clause that is never actually contingent. Since there is a single interpretation that no longer results in the counteracting inconsistencies, that must be the correct interpretation based on the rules we have written before us. If they wanted Chosen of the King to trigger for the Haunter on himself, they could have just said "friendly fighter" and left out visibility. So lets take a look at the root visibility issues, and in this case the category in which the rule is stated matters. Visibility is directly on point on page 35 as you mentioned and its listed category is VISIBILITY, it states: "Many rules in Warcry require one fighter (usually the target of an attack action or ability) to be visible to another fighter (usually the fighter making the attack action or using the ability). One fighter is said to be visible to another fighter if a direct line could be drawn between the two fighters without passing through a terrain feature or another fighter." The word "another" is inherently present in the description of visibility. The point you mention about other fighters contained further into page 35 is under the category FRIENDLY AND ENEMY FIGHTERS, it states: "If a rule for an action or ability performed by a fighter refers to ‘other friendly fighters’, it means fighters from that fighter’s warband, excluding itself." There are a few problems in interpreting this particular statement as affecting visibility. First, the category with which this statement is listed under is dealing with identifying friendly versus hostile fighters - it has nothing to do in the slightest with visibility. Secondly, and arguably more importantly, it refers to a specific statement, "other friendly fighters", and defines what the does and does not include. That statement, "other friendly fighters", is not contained in either Royal Hunt or Chosen of the King, therefore it has zero relevance on those abilities and provides no context for the issue of visibility. There is no sound, logical reading of that statement which would then allow an inference that they would have said "other" to exclude itself, especially the visibility description that proceeded it on that page, which inherently contains the words "another fighter".

Side note since I just had this thought. The haunter doesn't lose this ability. In fact under the new GA book rules, the haunter maintains its ability to use Chosen of the King - the change is that he cannot trigger it off himself anymore. You can still take the Haunter as a hero unit, he retains the Chosen of the King ability, which you could then also take a Crypt Infernal as your leader, and just get him near the Haunter and BOOM! You get the best of both worlds. The haunter never lost the ability, it just changes how it has to be used. There is also a what, 40 point?, difference between Haunter and Infernal - that I'm sure is intended to reflect one possessing flying and the other not.

You're right, I misstated that, what I should have said is that what the GA book changed is that they REMOVED the leader runemark from the ability "Chosen of the King" - but my point remains the same, the only change they made was correcting the issue of paradox of the Haunter being both the leader and the only one capable of using that ability. So while I accidentally misstated the change, they DID change the thing creating the rules paradox - meaning now both the Horror and Haunter can use "Chosen of the King". Neither of these really address the root issue of the rule at hand. The fact is they did CHANGE THE ABILITY once heroes were a thing. So neither of these arguments really address the actual rule and its internal logical consistency. The points point doesn't have any bearing on the rule, there are lots of units that have ridiculous points costs and no one would ever take them - GW isn't the best at balancing things properly, I think we all realize that. The points you are making though seem like arguments that you really want your Haunter to be able to use the ability, which is fine - play however you want, doesn't bother me - more than they are logical arguments for why the rule should be read a particular way. I think the removal of the leader rune mark requirement for Chosen of the King enabling both the horror and haunter to have access to that ability AND allowing you to have both the Haunter and a separate leader, indicates to me that GW thinks they cleared up the inconsistencies with using that ability. I think looking to the rules in other factions is a mistake, like I said in my previous post, and honestly to your point about reading consistency within GW own rules, it is more important for an internal faction to be consistent then GW having total consistency across all factions. The root of the issue about the FEC visible fighter ruling is the two abilities: Chosen of the King and The Royal Hunt. The Royal Hunt makes no sense if a fighter is visible to itself, and the old Chosen of the King made no sense if a fighter wasn't visible to itself. By changing the rules in the GA book to now make sense if a fighter isn't visible to itself, that speaks volumes about how to interpret the internal rules for the FEC abilities. Now, there is no inconsistency in reading both rules to read as though a fighter isn't visible to itself - BUT - if we read that a fighter is visible to itself, The Royal Hunt still makes no sense. Since one of possible 2 interpretations can be read to have no internal inconsistencies, that is, in my estimation, the appropriate interpretation.

The issue is "visible", is a unit visible to itself is the real question. The "other friendly" is a completely different issue because there is no reference to visibility. The phrase "other friendly fighter" has no logical connection to whether a fighter is visible - so the arguments in my previous post. If you read a "visible friendly fighter" to include itself then you are reading out of existence the contingency in Royal Hunt, "In addition, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of that attack action if this fighter is within 1" of a visible friendly fighter." Reading out the entire contingency isn't a rules decision that should be taken flippantly. For certain the fault lies with GW for not making this more clear with their language choices.

I've played with both Tzeentch arcanites and Tzeentch Daemons, I like both, but I think arcanites actually might be a little stronger - or at least I enjoy playing them more. I've discovered in the games I've played that the Arcanite with Scroll is essential to your roster. It had done arguably the most damage in my arcanite warcry games - it's very good. Having 4 attacks at strength 4 with 2/4 damage and having 4 toughness is GREAT!!! I like the skyfires, but I think they are overcosted for what you get - if their ability was a triple rather than a quad I'd consider taking them more. The enlightened on disc were better in my opinion, for a quad you can rampage them and they can tear through stuff - and the speed is good for objective/treasure taking. An enlightened + quad [rampage], is almost always pumping out more damage than the skyfires with their quad. I really like tzaangors - they have okay move (better than arcanites) - good toughness, but not great damage (unless you take the two hander guy - he can wreck) - but they are great objective holders. Once you pop a few doubles for them though they can actually do some good damage. Having a boost to strength and attacks is quite a good double I think. I don't take more than one Tzaangor on disc, I usually pass on Skyfires, and then always take at least 2 arcanites with scrolls - I cannot oversell have helpful they are to have. While people are locked in with your Tzaangor units, those guys sit back and shoot in a ton of damage. If you don't have enlightened then I would focus on Tzaangors and a few arcanites (the bird guy's ability won me a game one time by stopping a retreat towards an objective). I liked the Gaunt Summoner previously, but he got a bit of a nerf in the new book and I think he is overcosted now. The new books also give some good options to add leaders, I personally like the Fate Master.

I posted this same issue and didn't really get much guidance. I also submitted a request to GW for an FAQ which as of right now hasn't been answered as you mentioned. I believed originally that a fighter is not considered visible to itself. I believe the new book reinforces this. There was no changing to the wording of the abilities HOWEVER there was another change. They have added the symbol for Chosen of the King to the normal crypt horror - so that now the Crypt Haunter is no longer the only unit that can benefit from that ability. Previously I think the strongest argument that a fighter was visible to itself was that the Crypt Haunter was the only unit with the symbol, which meant there was a serious logical problem since he would also be the leader and therefore the ability was unusable. With the addition of the crypt horror gaining the symbol now it makes a lot more sense that a fighter is not visible to itself. ALSO, the new rules for the grand alliance books state that you can take someone with a leader mark as a HERO unit and while that are not considered the leader they still retain their abilities. That means you could have a abhorrent ghoul king leader, and the crypt haunter as a hero unit, and the crypt haunter can use Chosen of the King when around the ghoul king. In my mind the issue of redundancy with the Gloomspite ability is less of an issue then the logical fallacy that would be presented in making an ability worded as contingent and then allowing the contingency to always be met (ie - the Royal Hunt ability always being "on"). Redundancy is poor wording to be sure, but it is at least reinforcing itself rather than contradicting itself. I believe, as poorly as it may have been done, that the corrections to the symbols and the system of "hero" units resolves the contradiction that was previously present for the Chosen of the King ability. TL;DR - New book adds symbol for Chosen of the King to normal crypt horrors and lets Haunters be non-leader hero units, so they can still use Chosen of the King without depending on themselves for the "visible friendly fighter" - leaving the only contradiction with a fighter being visible to itself with the Royal Hunt ability. Because the only contradiction is with that ability, it seems logical that a unit considering "visible friendly fighter" does not include itself.

ahh, see - I was missing something! Thanks for clarifying. As a side inquiry to that though. Since most scenarios only last 3 battle rounds, and you're unlikely to have taken 15 damage in the first round (at least in my experience) to a single fighter [and if you have, then your Thaumaturge is unlikely to see round 3 at that rate]. It means you are likely to get only 2 rounds of use out of it. Which would mean in all likelihood, assuming you use two doubles in two rounds you get between 1-2 extra attacks as opposed to using onslaught twice. [2nd round - boost attacks by 1, 3rd round - boosts attacks by 1 in addition to the first boost - and if you can double attack you've netted 2 more attacks then double onslaught] - Am I thinking about this correctly?

So I just got the Grand Alliance Chaos book (Agents of Chaos) and noticed some changes in the book to Tzeentch. I don't understand why the Tzeentch abilities make so little sense to me - here are some examples. Our leader ability boosts the value of other abilities for a triple - okay, not that useful - but then they make most of our abilities not dependent on the value of an ability (locus of sorcery is probably the only viable option to actually use it with, since the arcanite double ability doesn't depend on value) The Ogroid Thaumaturges newly reworded ability is literally just a worse version of Onslaught - if your ogroid has taken 15 or more points of damage then you get to add 1 to the attack characteristic of melee until the end of the battle round; its literally just onslaught but has an extra requirement; I mean why is this a thing? [again another ability that cannot benefit from Master of Destiny] Guided by the Future for our skyfires is a quad which has added restrictions on who you can use it on - and yet its effect is the same as the non-restricted stormcast triple that castigators have. Its like all our abilities are lesser versions of other abilities, and our primary leader ability is nigh unusable. The one stellar ability I thought we had was still hit or miss, but was the Warptongue Blade on the Gaunt Summoner which has now been nerfed. They capped out the damage on a roll of 6 to 3 - and the summoner has less wounds, and costs more points. I like some of the Tzeentch units, but honestly, it feels like they got the shaft when it comes to abilities in Warcry - other people's thoughts? Am I just looking at this wrong - what's the situation? Do you think this is an intentional design choice or just a lack of consideration?

So I wanted to chime in because my friend started playing FEC and these abilities are very destructive - so I'm trying to understand the rules on them. I specifically am looking at the same issue you guys are bringing up regarding "chosen of the king" - but I have an insight as to why I think the haunter cannot target itself. To understand my point though, you also have to look at "The Royal Hunt" ability. I think the keyword that makes the haunter unable to target himself is "visible". I do not believe a unit is considered visible to itself. The wording for both "The Royal Hunt" and "Chosen of the King" both refer to a "visible friendly fighter" - now this is the logical connection. If a unit considered itself as a "visible friendly fighter" then why would would "The Royal Hunt" have an added benefit in such a scenario? If the fighter counted themselves for purposes of that ability then there would never be a scenario where "The Royal Hunt"'s added benefit was not present. Does that make sense? I think the rules issue here is that a "visible friendly fighter" does not include itself - the key word being "visible". I cannot imagine, nor would I think anyone would argue the "The Royal Hunt"'s added bonus would always apply in every scenario. Thoughts?