Neil Arthur Hotep

Do you (or does anybody) know the current Legion of Night tech? What makes them so much better than Blood? On my initial read of the book, Night seemed good but a bit unfocused. I am surprised that it's now near the top.

In my opinion, if I am going into this with the expectation that the Warforger spell won't go off anyway, I might as well leave the Fusiliers at home. But I actually think Hallowheart has a pretty good chance at competing in the magic game. 3d6 casting is +3,5 to cast on average and the Warforger has +1 to cast on its warscroll. That's a huge bonus. If it's just about getting a spell out through a normal or +1 unbind, they can do it. Of course, there are better and worse match up for an army that relies on magic, and Tzeentch, Khorne, Teclis or Nagash certainly are bad match ups. But I don't think they are bad to the point of being unbeatable. Notably, the list is not especially affected by Null Myriad, because the Alchemite spell can't be blocked by their spell shrug.

So, I have been doing some calculations to get an idea of how much of a benefit going Hallowheart actually is for my above list. To start: This is really pretty hard to quantify, and you need to make a lot of assumptions. But I think you can at least get a pretty good idea of what it would take for a different subfaction to beat Hallowheart in terms of expected mortal wounds. So, assumptions: A warforger casts Ignite Weapons every round A unit of 20 Fusiliers receives the buff (nobody else, even though it is an aura). The opponent tries to unbind every time. Without going over the math, this adds ~10.5 mortals over the course of a game. Since my list also had a Hurricanum that will probably occasionally want to cast a direct damage spell, I will assume another 3 extra mortals over the course of a game from that. So my assumption is that I would need to add about 13-14 mortals/unsaved damage to match Hallowheart if that is the only thing I am taking into consideration. The city I want to compare this to is Lethis. Lethis makes non-wizard characters into priests, giving them a 4+ prayer that turns off wards and allowing them to take generic players like Curse (4+. 6s to hit cause 1 mortal in addition on an enemy unit). The question is, can this get you to 13 or so mortals over a game? More assuptions: My list gets 3 extra priests: two Tank Commanders and a Cavalier-Marshall Since Curse is 9" range, no hero will be in position round 1 to use it. Of the 4 remaining rounds, it will fail twice. So expect two successful curses per game. But this is where it gets tricky. The expected mortals added by the warforger spell are easy to calc, since they are added to the attacks of just the Fusiliers, while the mortals from curse can in theory come from any unit that attacks into the cursed unit. That includes the Fusiliers, but only if they don't also have Ignite Weapons, since they don't stack (thus having bothe would not add any mortals). The Cavalier-Marshal will probably not benefit from Curse, because he and the Cavaliers are supposed to make long-range charges and then die fairly quickly, so would probably be either out of range or dead. A round of shooting and melee from a Steam Tank Commander adds 4.25 mortals with Curse up. Assuming a Tank Commander gets curse off 2 times and is the only unit that fights two times (I think this is a reasonable floor), that is 8,5 mortals. Over the course of the game, you would need to find 5 extra wounds between ward negation and mortals to make the choice of Lethis worth it for my list. I think this is doable, but it would probably raise the skill floor of piloting the list pretty significantly. The Hallowheart build has a real upside in my mind, which is that it is a lot more simple and significantly more consistent. 3d6 casting close to guarantees that the Warforger spell will go off, even taking Andtor special rules into account (~90% to cast through a 2d6 unbind, and you can stack as many extra dice into your cast as you opponent can stack into their unbind). And you don't need to make any decisions other than what you want to shoot. With Lethis, although you can probably get more mortals out of it realistically, you need to make a lot of on the fly decisions to get them. So I will personally be sticking to Hallowheart for big games/tournament scenarios. TL;DR: Hallowheart is difficult to beat for mortal wounds output and consistency even if you just run a 20 Fusilier + Warforger power pair.

There are sentient skeletons and zombies in the Mortal Realms. It honestly sounds like a pretty good deal depending on the circumstances, since there are a lot of "naturally occuring" undead across the realms that are not even enslaved by Nagash (until he decides to take direct control a few eons from now).

Sylvaneth, because Alarielle controls the majority of the supply of Aqua Ghyranis, which is the currency in most of the realms.

There is precedence for it with Kragnos, but it's also true that the god models are a special case. I generally agree that GW does not put out cross-faction kits anymore, but they have also not dealt with the existing ones yet. I don't know, I feel like GW will have to resolve the Zombie Dragon situation at some point. It feels like an updated kit with all the options of the last one could be possible. It's just a head swap and three different riders. What I would rather see is two kits: Zombie Dragon and Terrorgheist, with Soulblight getting the dragon and FEC getting the bat. Each kit with distinct loadout options that are appropriate to the army. Maybe keep the unmounted build for compatibility with the old battletomes.

That's a very good point, actually. I had been looking only at the possibility of fitting an extra small hero in, but upgrading the Tank is actually a lot easier. Would pretty easy, too, I could just replace a unit of Steelhelms with Dreadspears. They will miss out on HUMAN keyword synergies, but since I am only using them to screen anyway, I think that is acceptable. Thanks for the heads up, you are right. Honestly, I would prefer not to play with all the extra magic rules if I had a choice, but it is what it is. I'll just run Levitate in that case, because Twin-Tailed Comet is kind of garbo and the Hurricanum already has a direct damage spell on its warscroll, anyway. This is a super different experience from what I had running several pretty sturdy heroes. Really interesting. I found the Orders super valuable for how they allowed me to play out of sequence with counter charges and counter fire. I would honestly say that they are Cities main allegiance ability and not packing on at least a few heroes would kind of be like playing Stormcast without deep striking. I definitely agree with you on the cannons (just from the damage math), but I think the Steelhelms have some extra potential if you build around them. In Hammerhal Ghyra, they get 10 bravery, which in turn makes the Freeguild Marshal's "count as two on objectives" ability a lot more likely to work. They are a natural 4+ save and likely 6+ ward, and also get access to several easy +1 to saves buffs, a potential 5+ ward from Zenestra, rally into combat from Tahlia Vedra, mortal wounds from the Warforger... I think you can 100% play a Steelhelm horde if you want to, it's just not the most attractive way to play the army because painting 60+ Steelhelms honestly sounds like torture.

People were speculating that the zombie dragon might get updated when the 3rd ed SBGL tome came out because the dragon on the cover looks quite different from the miniature while everything else is depicted extremely closely on-model: Maybe it is finally time?

F to pay respects. Really sucks to be in your situation. For the time being, I guess you could still coalition your remaining Cities units into a Stormcast Stormkeep army or just ally your Stormcast into your Cities army (which has the upside of being unlikely to go away when the Stormcast battletome gets updated). And maybe at least TOW can give you a way to still use your old models when the game launches. It's difficult to know what models you can safely invest in for Cities. Definitely all the new Freeguild stuff, of course, but it is still hard to predict what will happen with the leftover dwarves and dark elves in the next book.

I belive Whitefang implied that they are a new unit, which is why I wrote what I did in my initial post.

Run them as Black Ark Corsairs or Darkshards.

I would love it if all the old kits got replaced. They certainly all deserve it at this point. But I think GW seems to be setting up this update as more of an expansion than a refresh, given that the new ghouls are apparently a separate new unit. Because of this, I fear that the old ghoul and crypt flayer kits will be with us for a while longer.

With as few kits as FEC has, I don't see them replacing their big centerpiece kit in this update when they could just add another one. I think the Vargulf will get an update, though, as part of the push to remove resin miniatures from AoS.

I am fairly sure that Whitefang explicitly said that FEC would be a big release at some point. But I don't think we should be expecting CoS levels (if only to not set ourselves up for disappointment). I don't know how much new evidence that video adds. They previously did a similar teaser for Cursed City, though, which contained a lot of models and was part of a big update for Soulblight.

So, I might be joining an AoS league next year. That means it's time to look into actually building a semi-competitive list. Currently, this is what I am thinking: Game plan: This is a fairly sturdy high-shooting list, so my game plan is to go high drops and get the deployment advantage. If I have to go first, great: I can get all my buffs up and shoot some stuff off the table. I have to go second, that's not the end of the world either, since this list has screens and anvils and can obsorb some damage. Plus, Orders allow Cities to play well out-of-turn. In general, this list probably wins by picking off key units before engaging. It should play decently on objectives, but it not outstanding on them and needs good target priority to win, I think. List choices: Grand Strategy is Banners Held High. This list has 6 banners, which is decent, and can probably keep at least a few of them alive until the end of the game. This will be a near auto-succeed against Monster Mash and similar lists. A lot of armies don't even get banners on most of their units. To keep things brief, I think Banners Held High is probably the best Cities GS for my list (and likely in general). Of the GHB strategies, the only one I could see myself using is Spellcasting Savant, where you have to keep your wizard-general alive, but that seems harder to do than Banners Held High. I picked Hallowheart as my city because I really want to get the Alchemite spell off. 3d6 casting is a huge bonus and actually has some hidden upsides: It makes you immune to miscasts, because those are defined as unmodified casting rolls of 2. If you don't use primal dice, then you won't get primal miscasts out of rolling 2 or more 1s either. Hallowheart makes you suffer d3 mortals on a casting roll of 10+, but that is unmodified as well. It's pretty much a 50/50 chance, and you can mitigate the damage with wards, which is really managable. I think in the current season, the high cast bonus is necessary if you want to rely on spells to any significant extent. Even Settler's Gain is a noticable drop in cast chance, even more so if you factor in unbinds. Other Cities in contention are Misthavn and Lethis. Misthavn because it helps get units in range and allows them to reposition, which is just generally good. Lethis because it would give me two priests to attempt to Curse opponents and remove wards. I will have to do the math at some point about how many extra wounds I would need to get from prayers to make it worthwhile over the increased cast chance for Blazing Weapons and whatever the Hurricanum gets up to. The Alchemite is my general and gets the master of ballistics command trait to enable the Fusilier block. He gets to cast two spells if I want him to because he is an Andtorian Locus, so I put Hoarfrost on there as well. It might be useful on Steelhelms occasionally. I think I will actually limit myself to one cast per phase most of the time (and take the extra command point instead), because at two casts there is a real danger of dying to the Hallowheart battle trait. An alternative would be Transmutation of Lead, which has the potential to at least do more mortals than Arcane Bolt occasionally. The Hurricanum gets Levitate or Merciless Blizzard as a spell. The Hurricanum is there to support the Steam Tanks, and levitating one of them for counter-charge shennenigans is pretty good. Blizzard has a good chance of going off on the Hurricanum and it should generally be close enough to the front lines to actually cast it. Most of the time, the Hurricanum should probably be casting Mystic Shield or Chain Lightning, so I think picking a toolbox spell like levitate makes sense on it. For artefacts, I am somewhat undecided. I know that I want to put the Macroscope on the Hurricanum or Steam Tank Commander, because it will make it much more likely that the tanks can shoot with everything turn 1. I will have a second artefact, which I have not yet decided on. In contention are. Shemteks Grimour, Arcane Tome and the Glimmering. I am currently favouring Arcane Tome on the Tank Commander so that he can self-buff with Mystic Shield, but I am not sure if risking mortals from casting on him is actually the play. Core Battalions are not yet decided. I will take one Warlord battalion, but not sure apart from that. I could get Wizard Finders, but it's not really that good for this list. Strategy: Unit groupings will probably be: Tank Group Steam Tank Commander Steam Tank Hurricanum Command Corps Ranged Group Alchemite Fusiliers Steelhelms Cavalry Group Cavalier Marshal Cavaliers Zenestra Zenestra Steelhelms The tank group is an offensive threat, but can also take a punch and grind out combats really well. The units support each other: The Hurricanum gives the tanks +1 to hit on all their profiles as well as mystic shield and an extra Order, while the Tanks keep the Hurricanum alive into the later rounds and allow it to deal big damage with its Storm of Shemtek. The Command Corps helps in a bunch of small ways, most notably by healing the tanks and disrupting commands. Orders are probably Counter Fire and Advance for turn 1. The ranged group will probably hang back and shoot most of the time. You all know how it works: Mortal wound spell, all-out-attack, point-and-click a unit off the board. The Steelhelms help screen for it. Turn 1 the order is probably Counter Fire. The cavalry group goes for that big charge which the cavalry marshall/cavalier power pair can try to get once per game. It also provides some much needed mobility and a 3rd threat for this list. Engage the Foe order when possible, Counter Charge otherwise. Zenestra buffs whatever needs it most and tries to position herself so that she gets two prayers and can give a ward to most units. Also, she is a welcome source of an extra order, especially turn 1 for another Advance in Formation. Battle Tactics: Battle tactics seem hard. Cities tactics: This list can do Raise The Banner (take an objective off an opponent with a Great Herald) because it has a Command Corps. Bring Full Arms To Bear (destroy a suppressed unit) seems like it should be possible sometimes turn 2 onwards. For this tactic, the unit needs to live through the initial shooting attack in order to be suppressed, but can then be destroyed in any way (even battleshock). Seems situational, but possible. Likewise with Blackpowder Bombardment (destroy 3 units in the shooting phase). This list has a lot of shooting, so if small or weakened units are hanging around, it seems situationally possible. Mount The Charge is hard for this list (charge and take an objective with only mounted units). Mounted units are the Tank Commander, the Hurricanum, the Marshal and the Cavaliers. Notably not Zenestra or the regular Steam Tank. Since I have no elves and dwarves, I can't do the other tactics. GHB tactics: Intimidate the Invaders (get more units wholly outside of your territory than in it) seems like a good turn 1 tactic. The Tank and Cavalry groups want to advance, and Zenestra wants to get out of our territory as well. Pretty easy depending on the battle plan. Reprisal (destroy the unit that destroyed your general) should situationally be possible, although ideally the Alchemite won't die a lot. With 3d6 casting and only a few spells I want to cast per turn, Magical Dominance (successfully cast at least 1 spell and don't have any spells unbound) seems doable. Same for Magical Mayhem (destroy a unit with a spell). Everything else seems to situational to plan for or too hard for this list to do. That leaves us with 2 fairly dependable tactics and 6 situational ones. Kind of sucks, but it is what it is. Overall: I like this list and I think it should be fun to play, but I also have a few things that I wish I could include that I didn't have room for. An extra hero like a battlemage would be cool for that extra order, artefact and cast (since I am already in Hallowheart). I would kind of like to bring more bodies. Getting in 30 Fusiliers would also be a big damage boost that I feel I am leaving on the table after already investing a lot into the shooting group. On the other hand, I would love to be able to fit in another Steam Tank. But fitting both a tank group and ranged group into the list is actually kind of hard to manage. Overall, I think I want that good Fusilier shooting more than I want an extra tank, though. I'd be grateful for you guys' perspectives, especially when it comes to some of the list building coices that I am not yet 100% set on, like artefacts and battalions.

After the launch box, my first list just needs 20 Fusiliers, a Command Corps and Zenestra. I find that all of them are unique enough models that I am willing to pay GW prices and not proxy. I specifically avoided buying Handgunners in the past to wait for the update, so I will definitely get the new models now.

I didn't love them when they were first revealed, but they are quickly becoming one of my favourite kits. They really are excellent, and represent the Mortal Realms so well.

Steelman Freeguys

Finally got my dudes based. Excited for the rest of the range. Can't wait to paint some Fusiliers.

Sadly GW have no incentive to actually do that. All it would do right now, before the official launch of the game, is allow people to buy and base proxy models.

Yes, they are not matched to specific ones.

I see the confusion: I was not talking about him being a finecast model, but rather a Fatcast (as in, fat Stormcast).

Maybe we could start by not putting a weird trash hurricane on his base. Jokes aside, I think a different pose, a more convincing floating effect and not being an old Fatcast model would help a lot.

Giving the Sigmarite Warhammer artefact (basically a fake Ghal Maraz according to the fluff) to a Freeguild-Marshall on Griffon will result in a 3 3+/3+/-3/4 profile. Better than the original!

I am not seeing them anywhere, can you provide a link to the document?