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Beer & Pretzels Gamer

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196 Celestant-Prime

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  1. Again, all for more unit choice (particularly if Cavalry!). Think there are good questions re:battle line. Personally prefer the Ironjawz everything is battleline except Heroes for smaller factions to you get one and then “Battleline if”. Personally don’t spam HBs at moment, just run on block in Lords of Lodge, and wish it was easier to fit in more AH because I do love the idea of a dragon axe flamethrower combo, but as they can’t be battleline at same time as HBs. So my ideal likely something like 20x HBs w/Flamestrike (I do like the look of those over the regular axes), 20x VBs w/pick axe and shield, and 10x/5x AHs. But that build not valid undercurrent restrictions.
  2. No Ultimate Bragging rights were achieved in the first week of flipped tables in Zoom League for a replay of Shifting Objectives @ 2K with players now using their opponent’s lists. Until late in the game it looked like Bonesplitterz were going to pull out their first win. Somebody apparently told Pebbles, or Rogue Idol, that Forgeworld had decided to cancel him and he didn’t take it well as he moved into the middle where it preceded to put a beating down in the early rounds; wiping out a unit of Ironguts and a unit of Mournfang. Pebbles would finally fall to the Frostlord on Stonehorn but by that point he’d allowed Bonesplitterz to hold onto a modest VP lead by giving them control of the middle of the board and essentially “freezing” the Frostlord in place for two turns before dying in R3. It was 6-5 at the end of R1. 11-9 at end of R2. At the bottom of R3 it was the Bonesplitterz turn and if they did almost nothing they were going to go up 15-12. Really they just had to hold on against the single Mournfang in the West (which would also remove the last battleline Mawtribes could use to wrack up bonus points) and an Icebrow Hunter. At worst they were well positioned to go up 14-12. At that point the Mawtribes list would be scrambling to move around the board with the limited units they had left to close the gap in the final rounds and need a little luck as to where the primary objective fell at that. Instead, (maybe because they forgot they were no playing an army that largely sucked in melee instead of the Mawtribes they had grown used to?) Bonesplitterz tried to move their Arrowboys off the central objective to a potential charge into the Huskard on Stonehorn sitting on the primary objective. But when the charge failed they were left in no man’s land, too far away to give a bonus for the Central objective but nowhere close enough to challenge in the West. Net result was a 13-12 game at end of R3. Bonesplitterz got lucky and got the double turn but then charged the Arrowboys into the newly freed up Frostlord, (it went as well as you’d expect, refilling Mawpot to add insult to injury) conceding the primary objective in the East under the Huskard’s control. This would push the score to 17-12 but in their turn Mawtribes would score the East and the West to close the gap to 17-16 at which point the Bonesplitterz only had two models left. In R5 when the objective came down under Mawtribes control and Mawtribes won initiative Bonesplitterz conceded the game. As the concierge this was a tough one as I really felt like Bonesplitterz could hold out for a VP win even if they were tabled if they’d just played for VP at the end of R3. They’d get bad luck admittedly with how the primary fell a couple times it a 3 VP lead at end of R3 looks like it might have held and even been extended to a 4 VP lead in R4 that, without battleline and down to a few units, could’ve stood a tabling in R5. Given how familiar the player piloting Bonesplitterz this game was with Mawtribes they should’ve known that the while they were low on models, the two Stonehorns were going to be pretty resilient. But in talking with them post game they seemed to get fixated on taking out one of the two remaining Stonehorns and thus made moves that hurt them on a VP level and cost them the game. On the Fyreslayers main thread I went into detail on Khorne vs. Fyreslayers. The net of that match was while as Khorne I had a plan to end the Fyreslayer win streak I’d built up it (a) took too long to develop so even though I pulled off the key elements it didn’t matter because (b) a couple failed charges and a couple dozen 2s on the dice in R1 meant that I scored 0 VP after my opponent had wracked up the full 7 in their first turn and it was just too big a deficit to climb out of. Coming up we have the Khorne v Mawtribes and Fyreslayers v Bonesplitterz rematches in Scorched Earth. Really hoping to see a reversal this round. Hoping Pebbles is still angry at FW and does as well for me as he did last week!
  3. Again, still relatively new to Fyreslayers but do think that making “Battleline If” tied to Lodge not General would help if this is really an issue. To my understanding the big external complaint around Hearthguard Berzerkers is running two blocks of 20x in Hermdar w/a Lords of the Lodge Battalion. If Hermdar was NOT the Lodge that allowed HBs to be battleline my guess is that would drop to a single unit of 20x for the battalion. That said your argument seems to be more fluff oriented than player experience oriented? I’m primarily (at least in non-COVID-19 times) a narrative player so I am empathetic to the arguments I’ve seen here and in other threads (such as AoS 3.0) for lore based limitations. That said I’m overall lukewarm to the idea as I don’t struggle all that much to accommodate any non-HERO based ones. Simply put I make no personal assumption that a particular point level equates to the “platonic ideal” of a faction’s army size. In fact much of the lore I do read suggests that an Alfrostun for Mawtribes would be much larger than 2K points would allow. In most cases the Super Battalions best reflect what the true army size would be. So as regards any 2k list weighted more strongly to HBs (or if it so happened AHs) my mind has no problem adjusting to this is not some fresh Fyrd that just marched out of the Magmahold in full force but one that has been whittled down by combat. Makes perfect sense that the stronger units such as HB would have more survivors than the Vulkites. Alternatively my mind frequently has come to see any individual 2K match up as largely reflecting a slice of the larger battle (this was a common set up for the historical war games I started playing before AoS, where for model reasons maybe only one flank of a battle was reflected, or only a few hours of the engagement that didn’t include certain units that arrived later or were held in reserve). So again, this is an easy mental adjustment for when I see big blobs of HBs (as in ahh, this is the core the army so the best troops are represented). But net-net until Fyreslayers gets more multiple model units I see limited reason to restrict the use of ones we have.
  4. I would love a Fyreslayer Cavalry unit. I’d be worried though if Vulkites became the only battleline option. I enjoy taking a nice block of them but wouldn’t want to start every list with three. Still only three games played as and two against in my Fyreslayers journey but know from FEC the value of “Batttleline IF...” in keeping an army fun and fresh. I wouldn’t mind at all though if they shifted the conditions away from who your general is to make them Lodge specific.
  5. I’d love if it there was a nice expansion a la Slaanesh. But having played a lot of Mawtribes and seen a lot of Warclans think there are ways both keep the unique flavors of the sub-factions whether BCR and Gutbusters implicitly in Mawtribes or Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz a lot more explicitly in Warclans. If they do combine I’d prefer the latter with pretty explicit options for pure Fyreslayer and KO lists but then a Big Waaagh!!! Equivalent that allows a unique United Duardin faction including both and Dispossessed. As far as bad luck I know from speaking to both my locals (an actual GW and a broader gaming store) that they typically only stock 1 SC kit and 1 box of Hearthguard, replacing only with sale. This pretty common for older factions (e.g. until BR only stalking SC IDK and eels, or SC BCR and Gluttons or Ironguts) to my understanding. Retailers want to minimize slow turn inventory and outside of new Tome releases most older factions have low turn.
  6. I’m in the camp that thinks Fyreslayers will get rolled into a United Duardin Tome a la Orruk Warclans or Ogor Mawtribes. My hope is with that will come some new models. At a minimum just imagine dropping off 20x Hearthguard Berzerkers anywhere on the battlefield from a KO ship....
  7. Certainly the most fun I’ve had losing! (By double digits none the less.) It is fascinating to see your list played by someone else. The list dictated certain approaches but my opponent still made different choices than I would’ve in certain areas as they are a bigger gambler. Here it paid off. (Would be curious how it would’ve played had I made those charges...) But while I’m not a big tournament player (normal conditions 2-3 small locals a year) this will now be a regular part of my tournament prep. Learned a lot playing the list the first three matches but learned a lot trying to “crack it”, and expect to learn even more next two matches as I get ahold of new tools to try and accomplish that task.
  8. Too little, too late. The tables have flipped in Zoom League so this time it was me trying to crack the Fyreslayers list with my opponent’s Khorne list. Having seen his “hammer” break on my Hearthguard Anvil I had a plan. Unfortunately Fyreslayers were just too good in the two rounds it took me to execute my plan and were helped by some failed charges, I expected him to imitate my success in moving the Hearthguard Berzerkers with Battlesmith plus Bodyguards into the middle. I even got lucky that the primary objective landed in the West so he couldn’t just camp on it if I made him go first like I had when it had fallen in Center first two rounds. That forced him to bring the 20x Vulkites in the tunnel with the Runesmiter on foot out onto that objective R1.1. He also ran his 10x Vulkites out onto the East objective. Okay, stunk starting off down 7 VP but felt I was in a good position to claw back 5 as I started the first part of my plan. FURY and two units of 5x Flesh Hounds went to the West. FURY was even able to snipe the Runesmiter in the Shooting Phase with his whip and all three of them made their charges so I was hopeful that I would be able to clear enough to force a painful battle shock he couldn’t CP without a HERO in range. Meanwhile RAGE and 5x Flesh Hounds headed East to clear of the Vulkites. Unfortunately despite rerolls, they failed their charges. When FURY and the Flesh Hounds in the West couldn’t get the job done I was left with... 0 VP. Any hope to make it up with a double turn was quickly evaporated when I rolled (yet another...) 2 for initiative. In leaving a unit of Flesh Hounds and WRATH back my hope had been to draw forward the Hearthguard Berzerkers far enough to open a gap between them and the Battlesmith. My original hope had been to wipe the Vulkites in the East and the take advantage of Baleful Lords Run & Charge to fly RAGE into that gap and deal out enough damage and MWs to clear him and the Auric Hearthguard bodyguards. This would deprive the HBs of one of their +1 Saves, potentially their 4+ HERO shrug, and ideally their battalion ability to pile in and attack a second time. All in perfect time to slam Skarbrand into them. In R2.1 this plan partially worked. The gap did open up. But my opponent popped the Runesmiter on Magmadroth Grand Ritual and moved him into position for the HBs to get a +1 to Save (and thus the HERO 4+ shrug) even if I killed the Battlesmith. Meanwhile the 20x Vulkites were also in the Runesmiter Grand Ritual buff bubble so they held out in the West another turn. Thus I was down 12-0 by the time I got my second turn. RAGE would fly over and wipe out the Battlesmith but with 4+/4++ the Hearthguard handled the Skarbrand hit better than hoped. By that point the VP deficit was too much. From the Fyreslayers perspective the 20x Vulkites Berzerkers were MVPs. The +1 Save from the Bladed Slingshield made a difference, especially when paired with the +1 from the Runesmiter’s Grand Ritual, in tying up a big chunk of my forces. To finally clear them R3 I’d need to summon 10x more Flesh Hounds. Now was that Khorne’s hammer? No. But by holding out in the West so long they prevented the Tyrants from converging in the middle against the rest all while wracking up VP. The Warpick’s Rend, especially when doubled to -2 in R2 when the tune was in effect, also made sure they wore down the units tied up with them. Add in Berzerker Fury, allowing pile in on death and points wise they came out at least even. I’ve definitely come to appreciate the value of this block in the list. Again, this is far from a fully optimized list but I like that it has more tools than I expected. It can put 20x semi-resilient Vulkites bodies on an objective, especially with Vostarg movement or Runesmiter’s tunnel, with the knowledge that the opponent probably has to turn their hardest hitters in the direction of the Hearthguard Berzerkers. Meanwhile, in later rounds the Magmadroths get chances to shine.
  9. That would be great but I didn’t want to get “greedy”😁 Consistent with what @Skreech Verminking pointed out it would be nice if more of the faction specific start collecting sets were closer to actual list requirements. Not sure how true the new 40K Combat Patrol boxes are to the concept of having a ready to play force out of box but the concept gets me hopeful that it is a direction AoS can go towards.
  10. To take a completely different angle, as someone who is an active AoS evangelist (have brought close to a dozen people into game at this point) what I want is for the factions they choose to be in the start collecting kits to be good for the life span of 3.0. For 2.0 the easiest and cheapest (except for the BCR SC exception) armies to build were Stormcast Eternals and Nighthaunt, which dominated the start collecting battle boxes coming out of Soul Wars and the cheap easy build kits (as well as being the focus of the paint sets for that matter). But for a large chunk of 3.0 they were armies with severe battletome issues in comparison to most other armies. This a real barrier to converting someone I taught to play into an actual army owner. Not saying they have to be top tier for all of 3.0. Just want a commitment that those cheap entry points will give new players a fun & viable start throughout.
  11. With a win against Mawtribes my Fyreslayers managed to go 3-0. Yet, once again, how I won gives me hope that I will manage to pull off “Ultimate Bragging Rights” at least once as we flip the table and start playing our opponents’ list. To make for a more interesting tactical choice with the center objective in Focal Points we’d made sure the objective could be contested on two levels. As can be seen in the picture above those on ground level would be in the 6” zone of control but so would those on top of the hill. In the second round it looked like exactly this scenario was going to come into play as the Ironguts moved into the lower zone of control. With control of both objectives in the West and the Central objective Mawtribes would pull into the lead on VP and force me to make a difficult decision on how to regain control. Getting up the hill and over the skull to get into combat was going to take a high Charge Roll anyway so the base case was they’d stay there. But my opponent rolled an 11 and charged them in. Now based on previous games this still wasn’t a horrible idea. The Ironguts had been making hay in previous matches buzz sawing though other units or severely degrading if not one-shotting Monsters. In contrast, outside of giving the Run & Charge Command Trait buff to my Hearthguard Berzerkers my Runefather on Magmadroth had done almost nothing in prior games. He’d lost out to a Maniak Weirdnob last game... So the odds still seemed in Mawtribes favor, but due to other units in combat that turn my opponent prioritized a different unit with their first activation. With the enhanced Rune of Fury giving me an extra attack and re-rolling 1s to Hit the Vosaxe Artefact buffed Latchkey Grandaxe finally went off. With the Magmadroth kicking in some Damage as well was able to kill three out of the four Ironguts and leave the last with only 1 wound left. The swing in VP and my opponent’s combat effectiveness from this one combat would prove decisive. If you’ve read the other battle reports for Fyreslayers there are moments like these where different choices or better or worse rolls of the dice helped swing things in my favor. So while I am happy to finish the first round undefeated I don’t think things are hopeless once I start piloting the other lists against my Fyreslayers. Interestingly enough I am very hopeful about winning with the Bonesplitterz list that went 0-3. Against Khorne in the final game of the first cycle they had an interesting opportunity to exploit. Bonesplitterz had used their pre-game movement to advance their Savage Big Stabbas up the board. This baited Khorne into going first to try and knock out these threats before they got into their Bloodthirsters. Except, even after re-rolls Khorne would fail all but one charge, only managing to get one unit of Flesh Hounds into combat. On Bonesplitterz turn they faced a choice of targets. Do they commit both units into WRATH and FURY or do they split their attacks and try and take out Skarbrand using the Big Stabbas ability to run & charge? They went for the latter. The Big Stabbas did one shot Skarbrand on some good rolls but Tyrants of Blood sequential activation meant WRATH and FURY both survived this combat. Again, hard to fault taking out Skarbrand before he gets going but once the game was over we kept coming back to this exchange as being one that still left Khorne with the advantage after leaving themselves exposed by failed charges. I fully acknowledge Bonesplitterz is going to be the toughest list to pilot. But in the Scorched Earth Battleplan I’ll be using them I do think they have some opportunities to exploit Fyreslayers limited movement once Vostarg’s R1 free 6” run is in the past and the Runesmiter out of the tunnel. Similarly, I like Khorne’s mobility to get to objectives and hopefully single out some of the support pieces Fyreslayers are so dependent on. Doubt I can go 6-0 across this tournament but I still think I’ve got wins ahead of me.
  12. This gets me so well! Again, I love AoS for how it avoids so many of the issues that drove me away from historical wargaming. And for the most part I’ve truly come to peace with the compromises that the simple rule set forces. But this is a great example of where I feel like the simplicity is “game-breaking” in the sense that it takes me out of the mentality of “realistic strategy & tactics” albeit in a fantasy setting. As I put it in another thread it takes us from being Generals to being Gods. And so as to not simply complain but coming completely off the top of my head I will propose the following solution for AoS: Unless no other target is in range, no more than 5 models worth of missile attacks can be targeted at a non-MONSTER HERO. This still allows for some sniping by individual models or small units that should be able to “concentrate fire but prevents the ridiculousness of @OkayestDM’s amazing GIF (laughed so hard my kids came and checked to see if I was alright). Again, just off the top of my head but seems like a simple fix.
  13. In my first two games the Auric Runefather on Magmadroth had largely been there to give the Hearthguard Berzerker the run & charge Command Trait buff from Vostarg but otherwise hadn’t done much (ignominiously losing head-to-head against a defensively buffed Maniak Weirdnob last match). His attack output hadn’t been even decent, not helped by bad rolls for his Axe, which brought decent damage output in theory with the Vostarg Artefact. Finally got his moment to shine against Mawtribes. First, we were playing Focal Points so he gave bonus VP when I got him up on the central objective. But when a unit of Ironguts contested that objective he actually almost managed to wipe them out before they got a chance to activate, killing 3x and leaving the survivor with only 1 wound left. The difference maker? Had the enhanced Rune of Fury going so got the re-rolls and the extra attack. The Mount’s attacks softened them up but the Latchkey Grand(Vos)axe finally went off forcing two saves at -2 Rend for 3 Damage each and one at 4 Damage for good measure. As this was the first Fyreslayers unit I ever owned (bought as an ally for a big 8K+ total points blowout battle to end our gaming group’s first big narrative cycle) it was nice to finally see its output feel as impressive as the model looks.
  14. Agree that this is amazing work! Downside is before I saw this thread I was very happy with my Ironjawz. Now... not so much. Great stuff!
  15. In general I’ve found that the higher the number of objectives, changes in objectives value, or twists like removing objectives helps in this area. But agree there is plenty of room for things like prayers/spells that can force an opponent to move. More broadly I’d be fine if more factions incorporated elements that forced trade-offs, whether that was “honor” forcing an Order unit to advance on a nearby enemy or the same concept for something like bloodlust for Chaos (Khorne) or Destruction (Mawtribes) or even Death (FEC). Bravery could be a simple mechanic for something like this. In Movement Phase a unit has to pass a Bravery test to stand still (sure, maybe give a bonus if on an objective or in cover). And, as I’ve tried to acknowledge in both my initial post below the poll and in a later new culpa my intent was not to create a false dichotomy between objective play and lethality. As I’ve noted the par anthemic all descriptors were simply meant to be illustrative rather than definitive. That said the dichotomy is one I’ve seen raised, and I do see as particularly prevalent early in the learning curve where players struggle to balance the desire to table their opponent/avoid being tabled and playing for the misssion objectives, hence my using it in my examples. Think you did an excellent job in describing why it might not and need not always be the case that the two are in conflict.
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