LuminethMage
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Posts posted by LuminethMage
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16 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:
Why yes, because most tournament winning lists of a single army do not use it it must not be that bad! /s C'mon, at least show some respect for the people discussing this.
And to answer your question: YES. It is completely broken. It could be seen in 0.00% of winning tournament lists and STILL be broken because the topic is not exclusively restricted to competitive play. Easy to get rid of? A smart player will be getting rid of it themselves so that it cannot be unbound at the start of their subsequent hero phase and thus block them from casting it. Being easy to get rid of actually makes it stronger. There is no downside to attempting to cast it because a failure to cast Cogs would almost certainly have failed to cast anything else while a success means immediately getting that spell back, plus another for each wizard within (not wholly within) 6". There is nothing in AoS that comes even remotely close to offering the same level of battlefield effectiveness for 45 points.
I didn't mean to be disrespectful. It's just you have all these complains here on the forum about this and that, and it's often a bit hyperbolic, and also often turns out to not be wholly true in the end. I also didn't say only wining tournament lists count for what is OP. That whole argument feels more like a straw man, personal attack from your side.
It's just that we have no useful data about anything besides tournaments. So I can't say something like "it's not even used in most successful local lists", because I don't have any idea how common Cogs are taken worldwide on a club/fun level. I only have tournament data as a reference, that's the reason why I use it.
Cogs are good, especially for some armies like LRL. No doubt about that. But, as I mentioned, I play often with them, and it's mostly a T1 thing, you get a lot of gas out of that, and frankly it's also fun to do all those spells, besides how useful it is in the end (often there is a limit anyway on what you can do in T1, but it's still fun for an army like LRL).
As soon as you have to move, the value of Cogs lessens. The range is pretty short, small Wizards tend to get taken out etc. Yes, you can dispel them by yourself, and risk not getting them cast again where you need them. There is a trade-off, if you can't get it cast, you can't cast something else instead. Saying there is no downside because otherwise you
Especially if you are not talking about tournament lists, I don't see anyone being then super good about planing all their movements, spells etc., to maximize the use of Cogs (not forgetting to dispel them in the previous turn), and it therefore being super OP all the time.
I also think 45 points is too low for what it does, but I still think it's not that big of deal in most armies and lists. Lifeswarm is only a bit more expensive and in my view at least as powerful as Cogs, but there isn't a big uproar about that, likely because it's useful for more armies, so more people can use it. Whereas Cogs does more for only a few armies, and I think some of the OP talk stems from that, because people think it's unfair that others get that kind of thing. Which could be valid, but is different from being super OP.
And I think your last sentence is wrong for many armies. That's why you do not see Cogs that much in tournaments. If it was true that nothing in AoS comes even remotely close in therms of battlefield effectiveness for 45 points, you would see Cogs in almost every winning tournament lists. Statements like that are exactly what I mean. You probably could say that for Tzeentch and a few other lists, but that doesn't mean it's generally super OP.
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7 hours ago, Hoseman said:
Hi all. New Lumineth here.
I use to play elves so I have Sylvaneth, idoneth and a huge cities old army (high and Silvan elves) and I managed to get a nice deal for a Lumineth pack (Teclis, loremaster, 10 wardens and 10 dawnriders). I know I Will need more wardens for battleline but I wanna Focus on units different from old elves (I like the mountain and the Fox a lot, specially the Fox)
Si, I havent read the books yet and Im not a competitive player as I like to collect and Paint armys but I would like a good army to play Next year so I have some questions:
Why some people say they are overpowerd? Is because of the magic that puts mortal wounds on 5s? Is because of Teclis? And is It cool to mix wind and mountain units? Is It cool to go teclis, mountain and Fox on the same list? Will we get start collecting Soon?
Thanks!!
Why some people say they are overpowered: A lot of reasons. When the LRL came out, many of the reviewers said that they are OP (without having any experience themselves at that point), because their rules look powerful. Not many people actually could play with or against them when they came out because of Covid. So that stuck, even though they didn't win many tournaments or had a high win rate in 2nd.
LRL also play somewhat differently to other armies, because they have a lot of control elements, and very good focused damage, and it looks like people were struggling a bit in local clubs.
And then, most of their units have better stats than what comparable units especially of older books have (like Cities for example). They aren't as good as fully buffed units of those books, even when they are buffed, but are all good on their own, and really flexible (because of aetherquartz and spells), so you often have an answer to what your opponent does.
LRL were probably a bit too cheap when they first came out. I think lately all the OP talk has ebbed a bit (funnily while their win rate has gone up), but LRL are a good army. Definitely in the upper tier, and are difficult to play against for some armies (which rely on smaller buff units for example, or have a lot of key abilities in spells, which Teclis can just deny).
Units that are considered the most OP are usually the Sentinels, because they can basically shoot at anything within a 30" (or 36" if you include movement) range. You can't hide and the main damage output is via mortals, so most units have no or minimal defense against that. This is especially powerful when you can cast "Lambent Light" on a target, which lets you re-roll all hits. Then you can really fish for the 5+ MW. My guess is if GW ever thinks LRL are too strong, that's where changes would happen. If you start out with LRL and play locally, maybe stick to 20 Sentinels at first. 20 can still do good work, but aren't going to be super obnoxious for your opponent. If everyone has very good lists, then you can increase them.
Teclis was considered OP, but I think that largely has died down as a topic. He can be really hard for some armies, because of his cast denies and spells. But we hear much more about other monster heroes right now, because he is relatively easy to kill (in comparison to other god units).
Fox lists can be OP against melee-centric lists. If you can play well, pure melee lists will have trouble doing anything against you. If you mostly play locally with friends/in a club, I'd advice against using many Foxes (one or two in a list should be ok).
We haven't seen many lists doing well that just mix Alarith and Hurakan, although theoretically that should be ok. You might be lacking MW though, depends what you are playing against locally. Most people mix one or the other with Vanari/Scinari. The problem with Alarith/Hurakan lists is, there is no subfaction which helps both.
It's probably not feasible to have Teclis, Sevireth and Avalenor in one list. You could maybe just add your 30 Wardens battle line and that's it. Could be fun though. I haven't seen anyone doing that.
If you have Teclis and want to go fast to 2,000 while focusing on not Vanari, you could do something like this: (Ymetrica) Teclis, Stonemage, Avalenor, 3 x 5 Stoneguard, 20 Sentinels. You could also include your Dawnriders and Loreseeker of course, if you get some Warden (then don't play Ymetrica and lose the Stoneguards). Or use the Spirit of the Mountain instead of Avalenor and add Endless Spells. And you can do a similar thing with Hurakan, but maybe that's more complicated to play at first. Alarith are pretty straight forward for your opponent, as they are melee focused.
One thing - Alarith are pretty expensive, so if costs are an issue, with what you have have it would be cheaper to first focus on Vanari to get to 2,000.
Hope that helps.
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9 hours ago, Praecautus said:
Thanks so much. That is a lot to think. I was trying to avoid the whole new edition new army thing, but my other armies have not transitioned well to 3.0. And feel like they currently would struggle to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
So knowing it’s an alright start and not a huge investment to 1000 is really tempting.
thansk so mich
Idoneth don't do well in 3.0? That's surprising. They have been good for so long and the updates during Broken Realms also looked strong. But you are right, I don't remember seeing many Idoneth lists in tournaments doing well. Just hadn't really thought about it. What's the problem?
LRL are fun to play, lots of choices and play styles, but of course they can also always be hit with a nerf bat. Right now, they are doing good, yeah. You see basically all the subsections in tournament rankings, and also different lists (although it looks like in terms of tournaments, the trend is towards Teclis lists again).
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Is it fair to call something super OP, because it's great for one faction, and good for a few others? Most of the successful tournament LRL lists don't even have Cogs. I use Cogs all the time, it's great for my lists, but I don't play anything close to a competitive tournament list.
I expect it to go up on points because it seems to be too good for how cheap it is, but besides Tzeentch, is this thing such a big deal? It's relatively easy to get rid of and can't move.
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10 hours ago, Praecautus said:
I was randomly in a craft store when I came across the original lumineth white box when they were first released.
I was wondering if it would be a decent intro the army? And if so what else is worth adding to get to eg 1000 points?
Second, I currently have about 2500 of idoneth. Are there any interesting combos with the two armies?
So all the units in the box are good. Warden are probably our best unit, Eltharion is a great model, awesome in smaller battles and still quite good in larger ones. Dawnriders are also really useful. Normally, you'd go from there to 1,000 by buying a Cathallar (she provides some of our core interactions if you play with Vanari/Scinari), another 10 Warden and 10 Sentinels. That brings you to just under 1,000 points. If you have Endless Spells already you could throw in a Burning Head or something for good measure.
In your case, you could experiment with using your Namarti bows instead of Sentinels for example. Then you'd have less to buy.
Generally speaking in terms of LRL, (almost) all units are viable even in competitive play. So what you buy after 1,000 really depends. Most of us play with a core of around 30 Warden and 30 Sentinels (some use 10 more or less of either). And then either add Teclis and one or max two 5/6 W heroes a group of Dawnrider and/or Bladelords. If you play without Teclis then you can add more of all of those.
Or you can play with one of the Temples, then you buy a group of either Alarith or Hurakan units and mix them together with normally Warden and Sentinels. In case of Alarith maybe instead of Warden with Dawnriders. And you have a version for that with and without Teclis again. You can also just throw in one or two of the Spirits (either Alarith or Hurakan) into a largely Vanari/Scinari-based army. It's really up to what playstyle you like.
In terms of Idoneth - it depends a bit again. The turtle is probably better than any of the LRL monsters right now, so that's definitely a candidate to try out. If you go for a more control-based list (with Hurakan units for example), net sharks should be good too. And you could always try to use Namarti in a LRL list. LRL don't have priests, so that might also work. I haven't seen many tournament lists though which do that, besides at the end of the 2nd Ed, where people were experimenting with Sharks in Hurukan lists.
Returning to the box. The extras are also really nice. The combat gauge and dice etc. I still use the spell and ability cards, although they are incomplete now. Still a lot of the key abilities are there.
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13 hours ago, kollapse said:
Yeah I wasn't hoping for more than educated guesswork, so I'll take what I get. Thanks, I'll stick to my plan (foxes) for now then.
Sorry, it's just really hard to say with GW. We didn't an FAQ with all the rest last week, so you could wait a few more days and see if there is still something coming for LRL. Then normally there is a Winter FAQ, but we don't know if there is one this year. It's just all 🤷♂️
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I don’t think anyone can tell you that. It’s a possibility, but they could be still good afterwards. If you look at successful list right now, by now means all of them are based on Wind Spirits.
But for some factions, they are very difficult to counter, and prevent interactivity if played well. So GW might think they should change that. On the other hand, SoB aren’t fun either for several factions and they just buffed them in the new WD.
The new battletomes could bring a lot of changes too which could have an effect.
As long as you don’t find someone with insider information, it’s all just guesswork. -
On 8/29/2021 at 12:57 AM, Sonnenspeer said:
Don't forget the turtle 🐢
with protection of hysh maybe 🤔
The funny thing is that right now in LRL, both Aetherquartz and "Lightning Reactions" (double activation) work for the turtle. LRL's abilities are one of the very few that do not say their abilities are limited to Lumineth Realm-lords keyword units. It's a bit janky of course, and probably will get fixed once people start doing it, but if someone happens to own both right now, the turtle is probably the best Monster unit LRL can field : ). Turtle with AQ, All out Defense and a Mystic Shield : ). And Protection of Hysh/Teclis, Lifeswarm : )
Here is what both abilities say:
AQ
Each unit in a Lumineth Realmlords army starts the battle with 1 aetherquartz reserve. Once per phase, you can say that 1 unit will use its aetherquartz reserve to use 1 of the following aetherquartz reserve abilities. However, if you do so, subtract 1 from that unit’s Bravery characteristic for the rest of the battle.
Lightning Reactions
During the combat phase, when it is your turn to pick a unit to fight, you can pick 2 eligible units instead of 1. If you do so, each of those units can fight one after the other in the order of your choice.
But even without using those the turtle is pretty good in LRL I think. Some people have been using it already, and seems to work quite well.
On 8/29/2021 at 9:40 AM, Aelfric said:That's true. Also remembered you can take a Mega-Gargant as well. Not sure how viable either of them are though. The Mega-Gargant is a Hero as well, so could be worth a look. I believe it's Bundo Whalebiter, a Kraken-eater.
Some people have used the Gargant with Teclis and worked well for them. You could give it a shot.
I've been using both Avalenor and the Spirit of the Mountain, and both are good. If you are not trying to build a super competitive list (and even then they might be good) you can use them for sure. 3+ Save in LRL is pretty awesome. You can add Mystic Shield, make them Etherial in the worst case (like when they fight something like Vhordrai), have Speed of Hysh, Lifeswarm.
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8 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:
See though, not being upper tier at tournaments doesn't mean something isn't overpowered and it certainly doesn't mean it isn't OP on the casual level. There are plenty of things that tournament regulars can deal with which are oppressive to normal players. Tourney builds show up with the expectation of encountering, countering, and exploiting cheese. But that isn't something that applies to the whole game, nor should it.
Lumineth may not have a strong streak of winning tournaments but they have certainly been doing well. So sure, they aren't the most OP thing out there but that is an EXTREMELY high bar to measure against. If anything, feeling a need to measure against that in the first place is a sign that something is too strong.
We should never forget that ONLY overpowered builds do well at tournaments. Sure there will be some statistical outliers here and there but broadly speaking even skilled players with average armies do not perform better than bad players showing up with netlists. Players who do well in tourney play are both running OP armies and are good at exploiting them. The point being that for Lumineth there is something present to exploit.
Something you (by my impression) want is to push back against the 'LRL OP' narrative. Despite what I said above that is something I entirely agree with; the nega-hype around the army exceeds the extent to which it is OP. But I think fighting that directly is trying to swim upstream; people exaggerate into hyperbole based on no evidence at all let alone when there actually is some! A better approach, IMO, would be to try and steer the attitude in the correct direction:
Sunmetal weapons. That one rule is the source of people's frustrations. There is a lot which goes into a Lumineth cheese build but without that keystone it falls apart. It's brainless to use and there is little to no counterplay available. It takes the entire concept of LRL as a skilled high-finesse army and chucks it out in favor of blunt, reliable MW output.
My first reply to the OP was more of a joke, not meant totally serious, but yes I think LRL weren't OP in 2nd Ed (might have changed in 3rd, if they stay at a 60+% win rate for a prolonged time, then they might actually be and GW should do something about it
).
I understand where you and several others who make similar points (tournaments aren't casual play, something can be not OP in aggregated data, but still be a problem in casual games) are coming from. I think it can be true, I can't wholly agree though. If you do not have real data - and complains on internet forums or personal experience at a local level aren't - you can't really balance around it. There is too much subjectivity to these things. Tournament data has to become better though. It's still often not granular enough (does a faction have a 50% win-rate because of many 3:2 and 2:3 games or many 5:0 and 0:5 games, subsections specific etc.)
For example, I'm pretty involved in LRL forums, discords, reddit etc., and you can see really everything: From LRL players who lose almost all their games and ask what's wrong with the faction, to others who think LRL are too strong and feel bad about winning so much against their friends, to people who bought the army and can't find someone to play against even though no one has played one game against LRL in their group, to people like myself who don't have that problem at all.
Same thing for remedies: Like your example with Sunmetal Weapons. Lumineth don't do a whole lot of damage outside of their MW. They do not have many damaging spells, nor a lot of other MW output. Nor do they have units which you can buff up to do great damage. Your unbuffed Sunmetal weapon does a MW on a 6 to hit. This isn't something totally outstanding in AoS. You can use a spell (and spell casting is fickle in most cases) to buff this to a 5+, which then becomes pretty outstanding, but that's really the main way how LRL do damage. But it's still not an incomparable MW output in comparison to many other armies. Other armies can achieve similar numbers (just often not as consistent over a game) in most cases, that's one of the strengths of LRL. And I think the more battletomes are updated the more you'll see this (increase in MW output). I think what you meant - and what is probably the most common complaint about LRL is Sunmetal Weapons on Sentinels which ignore line-of-sight. These are part of the scalpel though - as long as you do not have a huge number of them, and can cast Lambent Light on your target - the damage output isn't great, but you can focus it very well. It does sucks for people because it's almost unavoidable. I 100% understand that. And maybe it was a bad idea to make such a unit. But right now, it seems LRL are pretty much balanced around it sadly. It's really difficult to play without Sentinels against almost all opponents (especially in 3rd). Maybe they can make them even more expensive to avoid spamming them or do away with the "ignore LOS" aspect in the a future Battletome. I'd be ok with that.
But from my experience, this wouldn't reduce the complains about LRL much or at all. It would just move the goal post again towards the next thing: For example Wind Spirts, or Teclis (which also a lot of people complain about), or their spells in general. There are just a lot of people who do not like LRL. Part of it seems to be "elves", part might be the timing when they came out at the start of Covid where not everyone was in a good shape (and crucially couldn't play), part is because they are more of a tricky control army. I don't think there is a magic button which would change things, as a LRL player all you can hope is that GW doesn't just remove most of the things which made the army interesting in the next update. That's what I'm mainly concerned about. It's a fun army to play, with many options and good internal balance. And often when GW updates books that were deemed to be or really too strong, or not liked, they just turn out to be bad (as in not fun).
Case in point: It's also not fun to play against 30 horrors, or SoB just walking on objective T1 and that's the whole game, or playing against Beastclaw Raiders when you do not know how they function (have a look at how many BCR 2nd ed battlereports were over at top of T1 because some poor guy did a mistake with their set-up), or Blood Stalkers, or KO where you might not have more than one or two real combats over the whole game, or a multitude of other units which have a similar MW output, but do not come up as a problem all the time. Or what was the biggest issue here on the forum when the rules for 3rd were announced, but no one had a single game played? Sentinels using Unleash Hell. And while that certainly is strong, if you look at the competitive scene (and likely also not in causal games, I don't think Archaon is easy to handle for your average gamer) - it's not what's actually the main problem - it's 3+ save monster heroes, which almost no one was talking about at that time. There are just a lot of people predisposed to not liking LRL. Some people might change their mind of course, but I think it's better if GW generally tries to balance the game around tournament data, than what people might think based on their own experience or internet talk.
That said, I also agree partly with you (and many others): LRL are strong in casual games, especially against people who have no experience playing against them. They don't play like most other armies, and their basic stats are good across the board (it's hard to build a bad list for casual games). I definitely felt that when I played against my CoS and SBL friends. I think though, that that has been reduced somewhat in 3rd ed, and part of it is just the paper/stone/scissors nature of AoS, and again not different from many other armies, where this topic just doesn't come up that often.
Sorry about the sermon.
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1 minute ago, Skreech Verminking said:
Well they didn’t, in this l game at least😋
(I lost them all including my three rattling gun, in my third game against a dok player, in turn one through my own rolling)
DoK favoritism! : ) - Sounds like you had a proper good Skaven time there 👍
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18 hours ago, Backbreaker said:
We have a Lumineth player in our group. He decided to stop playing the army because a lot of us were complaining about it. Mostly because we really didn't have fun when playing against him. The guy has 9 armies in total so he just switched but he really love his LRL. And honestly, he painted everythinghimself, convert his Teclis, it's just amazing to see the spears line up in front of you.
But it is a fun killer. I honestly think that the LRL battletome is more a curse for Lumineth player than for their opponents.
Look, there is light! Yes because we all agreed that it was a shame to stop playing an army beause of something like that. First he started playing new units instead of Teclis, Cathalar, Sentinels and Warden. We saw Avalenor hit the tabletop for the first time last night
And we decided to house rule. No more double turn, we hoped that this edition will fix that but it's still a balance breaker. We might change point costs for some armies (Gloomspite Gitz, dear god, Gitz players are either masochists or martyrs).
Awesome.
That's how it should be done locally (and also how I think it's solved most of the time). I don't play with Teclis, except against people who ask me too for example - because I know many people don't like playing against Teclis. If someone wants to play against a more melee focused list, I'll bring our Mountains and some Stoneguard.
I haven't had any complains about the fun level of the army so far. I mean it's not like everyone thinks Total Eclipse is the most fun ability ever, or getting your heroes shot by Sentinels is the best feeling (that's why I bring max 20). But we still have fun, exciting games most of the time. Especially in 3rd Ed.
And "Fun" is subjective, and I hear both on the LRL discussion boards. Some people have absolutely no problems at all locally, some do like in your group. I think it also has something to do with people already expecting a not fun experience because they have heard a lot about LRL being not fun. Doesn't matter in the end of course.
I just think the take that they should change successful battletomes (both Seraphon and LRL players like how their armies play and have attracted a lot of players as far as I can tell) is not a good proposition. It's easy to get likes with that kind of post, but I think it's not better for the game in the end. You also often see tons of posts from players who say they'd quit after something like with the new Slaanesh battletome happens. That's why I think it's better to uplift the bad books than make what are good books worse (except for obvious OP combinations that should be reigned in).
Anyway, awesome that you found a good solution for all of you 😃
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6 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:
I only know that my fellow elf-things player regretted calling the warpfire thrower weapon team a joke, after having his whole army being burnt by 2
Did the teams at least have the decency to properly self-destruct afterwards? #rollmore1s
I sadly haven't had a chance to play against Skaven yet, but hopefully soon : )
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13 hours ago, JonnyTheKing said:
The complaints were more how boring and unfun they can be tbf
Hopefully once a few battletomes come out the meta will go in a nice direction, someone throw a rope for GG and Beasts plz
Nope, people are just choosing what they want to complain about. There were at least as much "they are so OP" posts as there are about the fun level.
Agreed with the rest though, hopefully we get some good updates for the battletomes that are not doing well right now, soon : )
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13 hours ago, Mutton said:
It's absolutely not conjecture. It is a real problem in our community. Poorly balanced battletomes are incredibly damaging. We've had at least two people stop playing the game after being destroyed by Seraphon/Lumineth armies. We've had multiple other players with low tier armies leave because they just weren't having a good time anymore. And guess what, the only people who have stuck around are those with higher-tiered armies.
Just because it isn't happening everywhere with statistics to back it up doesn't mean it isn't real. This is one of the problems--everyone is obsessed with numbers and data. These can be helpful, for certain, but they don't tell the whole story.What did they play? What lists? You have someone leaving after they lost one match against a LRL/Seraphon player with what? There are a lot of battletomes which can compete with both of those.
This seems a bit weird, not saying it's impossible to happen - like I said we also had people quit because of all the negativity they are encountering. But it doesn't mean it's prevalent, nor that's it's a net-negative effect.
Nor that it's a problem of "high powered" battletomes over a prolbem "low powered" ones. Why make a problem out of the battletomes which have fun rules and good internal balance? The problem are the battletomes which aren't doing that. They should have less battletomes with boring rules, bad internal balance and funky stuff that doesn't work well.
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Finally LRL achieving win-rates which fit with the level of complains : ) . Some of your friends who sold all their LRL might start to regret that 😜
Thanks for the effort collecting all the data!
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On 8/20/2021 at 7:10 AM, Mutton said:
I've played more than a dozen 3.0 games at this point, and unfortunately it doesn't fix the fundamental issues with AoS, which are the clear have and have-not battletomes. Generally, the rich got richer and the poor mostly stayed where they were. Until the rules writers figure out that writing books like Seraphon's or Lumineth's are inherently damaging to the community, we're going to continue suffering through non-games between higher or lower "tier" armies with massive rules disparities. This isn't a "meta" problem; it's an army design problem.
The less we obsess over tournament statistics and the more we talk about the casual games 90% of people are actually playing, the clearer the true issues of the game are going to shine through. It sucks having to hear yet another player talk about wanting to quit AoS because they played multiple unwinnable games against an egregious faction.I think it's the opposite, they should write more battletomes like Seraphon and LRL. You don't want books which have uninspiring rules, or not much of list building options.
Ask Seraphon and LRL players, they are mostly happy with their battletome, wining is likely part of it, but they are just well done. They provide many options to play the game, and basically play exactly as you think they would.
The rest is just conjecture - you don't know if these books "damage" the community more than all the negativity and gatekeeping around almost any new book or faction that comes out. I've heard from LRL players that they give up on the game because of all the negativity they encounter. I think in both cases that's more of a fringe situation than anything that happens all the time.
Do these books alienate more people than they attract? Is there any evidence for that at all?
There isn't a clear cut difference between tournaments and local games either. Have a look at the many relatively small tournaments (ca. 30 people) which are played right now, and look what factions are in the 3/2 and 2/3 bracket. There is a lot of variety there. If both people play several games against each other with normal lists, there aren't that many "unwindable" match-ups out there.
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4 hours ago, Howdyhedberg said:
What FAQ is it that people are complaining about in the rumors thread? All of them? The core book? Ghb 2021? A particular army?
Btw, if they make a faq to the ghb, will that cover the pitched battle profiles too? (I'm wondering about that loreseeker).
It's the GHB generally, and yes, that does include pitched battle profiles, so the LS should become 100% clarified, and we might see more point changes. That could be one reason why it takes longer, so they have some time to look into the points, after seeing a few tournament results. : )
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On 8/19/2021 at 4:06 AM, Maogrim said:
Greetings, Enlightened Ones. Allow me to show the latest progress for my Ymetrica army... It's not much, sadly, but I had a Bachelor thesis to write, and those Dawnriders do take a while..
Good luck with your thesis, and well done! Very Light Elfen!
Im also just painting my last 5 Stoneguard.
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On 8/12/2021 at 4:07 PM, WAAAGHdogg15 said:
Had a massive debate on Twitter yesterday about whether or not foxes create negative play experience. Personally I think they just have a few mechanics that people aren’t used to yet. They are, albeit, very difficult to kill without good movement and shooting. This list has clear weaknesses though, especially when it comes to holding objectives or applying damage. There is very little in the way of MW output.
To answer the question though, it’s a hell of a lot of fun to play with. To play against… let’s just say it’s a good job I’m a friendly person 🤣
Seriously though, I think once people get used to foxes being part of the meta, the 12” shooting phase move won’t be as much of an issue. I’m just waiting for all those who haven’t yet discovered the pile in jankiness which means that, even when they’re with 3” of you, you still can’t hit them! To me, that’s what creates the NPE if anything.
It’s a really fun list though and I suspect you’ll see it doing the rounds sooner or later.
I agree, and generally think that NPE topic is way overblown, but as most of the major AoS channels are all into the “Foxes are the worst” thing, I doubt you’ll have an easy time convincing anyone.
It looks like for many people - a pure melee army that runs into your opponent and throws some dice is the most fun experience in this game. And a Fox list is just the opposite. Maybe because AoS started like this, there is a lot of the players who really don’t like shooting, magic and anything that’s not allowing melee armies to do what they want (I don’t mean easy wins - just that they want to be able to charge and kill stuff basically 100% of the time, if that’s not possible - NPE).
And if a large part of the community feels like that it’s hard to change it. Because if you talk about what’s NPE you never can be wrong. There might be some people who change their minds after actually playing against such a list, but with all the negativity being thrown out by the guys with the big microphones - people are already expecting to have a bad experience before the game starts, so it’s very easy to fall into - this is BS - mindset during the game.
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On 8/10/2021 at 8:06 AM, Cullen rothery said:
Idea for a Helon list, anyone got any suggestions or tweaks they think it may need
Allegiance: Lumineth Realm Lords
- Great Nation: Helon
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Leaders
Hurakan Windmage (120)**
- General
- Command Trait: Skyrace Grand Champion
- Artefact: Metalith Dust
- Lore of the Winds: Transporting Vortex
Scinari Cathallar (145)**
- Lore of Hysh: Ethereal Blessing
Lyrior Uthralle, Warden of Ymetrica (215)**
- Lore of Hysh: Lambent Light
Battleline
10 x Hurakan Windchargers (310)*
10 x Hurakan Windchargers (310)*
10 x Hurakan Windchargers (310)*
Units
5 x Vanari Dawnriders (140)**
- Spell1: Lore of Hysh: Speed of Hysh
5 x Vanari Dawnriders (140)**
- Spell1: Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
1 x Hurakan Spirit of the Wind (265)**
Endless Spells & Invocations
Chronomantic Cogs (45)
Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Warlord
Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Wounds: 106
Drops: 9Is give the Cathallar either Total Eclipse or Protection of Hysh. And Probably the Dawnriders another Lambent Light instead of Flaming Weapon. For redundancy reasons and better coverage. An alternative would be to take the spell enhancement (from the Warlord Battalion) and give everyone two spells to chose from, especially because you also take Cogs. And you could think about upgrading the SofW to Sevireth and downgrading Lyrior to a LR (and lose Cogs if that adds up to more that 2,000). All has upsides, downsides of course.
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On 8/10/2021 at 1:54 AM, Maogrim said:
Quick question, friends. How important are the banners for Alarith Stone Guard? Would you always bring them, and, if so, how many?
If you bring 5 maybe not, a unit of 10 probably yes, but if you also have a Cathallar you might take the risk without it.
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Love the colour sheme, great heavenly Lumineth! 🥰
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Well done 😍, and they are really fun to play with in 3rd Ed. : )
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1 hour ago, ledha said:
thanks for the correction and my excuses !
unrelated to it, what do people think of Vanari Bladelord and Urakhan windriders ? Are they okay to take in a mid-tier list or too weak to be used outside a very very very friendly game ?
Nothing to say sorry, a lot of rules in LRL, easy to misunderstand some. That happens to all of us. Just wanted to make sure you get it correctly in case you want to play with Alarith.
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The State of the Game
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
That made me laugh a bit, because when that Battletome came out there was so much malice thrown around about the rules of LRL (I don't mean you personally Enoby). Not only about the power level, but how complicated it is, and how LRL just ignore all the rules. The "Winseeker", "Winriders", all the NPE talk about Teclis, large war scrolls with a lot of abilities etc. It went up all to people on this site to call for a boycotting LRL.
I think that a big part of the AoS community just prefers melee armies that run at each other and smash things. Everything else seems to get the NPE stamp of disapproval very fast (overstated of course, but I think there is that tendency in AoS). And GW to their credit seems to listen to that feedback, that people don't enjoy shooty armies, magic and abilities that brake the core rules. But probably there aren't so many ways to make interesting, differentiated and relatively balanced rules for what in the end are similar play styles. That's why a lot of the new Warscrolls might look a bit bland now.
For me personally, making both the Hyshian Twinstones and Chronomatic Cogs pretty much useless made the playstyle I liked most (running around with small mages doing cool stuff) almost impossible, which made the game less enjoyable than AoS2, even though I think the AoS3 core rules are much better and engaging. From a power level I can still play LRL without any issues, but it's just much less fun.
Because I had less fun I started looking into 40K, especially with the new Eldar Codex coming up. And that seems to be a different beast altogether. Balance seems to be worse than in AoS (with always one/two books being just super strong), and there are a lot more rules. The former is of course bad, but the latter could be more fun in the end. Depends on the person I guess. I like more "crunchy" rules, so I'll give it a try.
Some part of the lacking enthusiasm with AoS might just come from a combination of Covid, and really not much going on right now in terms. A Battletome with one new model isn't that exciting if there isn't also some lore progress etc.