AngryPanda

A good number of us are mentioning that there is little to no synergy within the book, and I can’t agree more. This, along with the units being generally overpriced, is really hampering the new books potential. A while ago when we were speculating, I posted that even if the units themselves have below average warscrolls, strong allegiance abilities, battalions, and hero buffs can make up for it. Unfortunately, the “synergies” are all over the place, and there is no direction or significant bonuses that are clearly defined. For example, let’s talk about the battalions. Single or “one time” abilities, in my opinion, are the worst types a unit can have because they aren’t consistent. This applies to battalions, especially considering you’re investing the additional points. Also, the best battalions buffs strengthen the corresponding units strengths. A battalion that brings heavy hitting melee units should reasonably increase they’re capability in melee or survivability; a battalion that takes shooting units should increase the units capability to shoot. The battalions do this to a degree, but either they are not enough to justify the points, or the additional abilities are weak and don’t correlate with their strengths. The worst are the Nobles of Excess, who get rerolls to wound on a successful charge. Painbringers and twinsouls are one of the slowest units in the book: why give a bonus ability that plays to their weakness? Giving the benefit of the doubt, let’s say you do make the charge. Rerolling is nice...but it’s only for the first round of combat. The Seeker Calvacade has same problem, as it’s a limited single use use bonus for an expensive price tag. Depraved Carnival is alright, but is extremely expensive to make work and very risky as it’s essentially a glass cannon. The heroes are ok, and what’s great about our book is that Daemon abilities also apply to mortals; this is very unique within our tome compared to the other god factions. However, there are no consistent ways to buff our shooting, or our calvary. In my opinion, the Shardspeaker should of provided +1 to wound on general, so that Blissbarbs can get the bonus while shooting. Best way to buff our Seekers is taking a Herald on a Seeker Chariot to get rerolls to hit of 1. I’m crossing my fingers that within the FAQ they decrease the points about 20-30 across the board for the mortal units, and for the Fiendbloods (which have no synergies at all) decrease to 90-100 points, or give them a bonus to damage 2 or something. However, I have a feeling that if we’re to get any point adjustments, it will be in the new GHB that’s rumored to be coming out.

Nice conversions! Love the windigo/wild rider inspiration. I did some tinkering, and after cutting some corners I was able to develop something that might work. It isn’t competitive, but I feel it would be fun to play and experiment with. Invaders- Lurid Haze- 2/3 command points a turn 2000/2000 Heroes: Battalion: Supreme Symbarites Sigvald General #1 Lord of Pain - General #2 - Rod of Misrule Herald of Slaanesh General #3 +1 wound artifact Reroll run rolls trait Shardspeaker Shardspeaker Troops: Blissbarb Archers x11 Painbringers x 10 Painbringers x 10 Calvary: Slickblades x 5 Endless Spells: emerald swarm Summons: Fiends Daemonettes Keeper of Secret Infernal Rapturess The strategy behind the list is that Sigvald and the Slickblades infiltrate with the Lurid Haze battle trait as a distraction, to hit hard from the corner of the board, or target units that may be a concern. Even if the Slickblades cannot infiltrate, they’re fast enough to reach a decent flank. One group of painbringers moves with the Lord of Pain and a Shardspeaker; the other painbringers move with the Herald of Slaanesh and the other Shardspeaker. The blissbarbs sit on an objective while generating depravity, and the emerald swarm drops behind my painbringer blobs to bring back the dead and provide general healing. The command points provide battleshock security, +1 saves, and rerolls if needed. I also have a lot of spellcasters, and can potentially do well with casting. I feel that with the buffs that are provided by the heroes, in addition to the healing and reroll saves, I can have a nice hammer/anvil that sits on the main frontlines; the herald also has the cheeky ability which prevents pile ins. This also doesn’t include the units generated from summoning as well. I really want to experiment with this list against Ogors, Ossiarchs, or another decent melee-oriented army.

What do you guys think of pairing a unit or two of painbringers with the emerald swarm endless spell? In lurid haze we can give them a +1 save, bringing them to a +3 rerollable in the combat phase. Being only two wounds, they are also revived on a +3. If I’m gonna run a Slaanesh list, I’m planning on trying this out as I like the models a lot; however it’s a bit difficult to fit in with the point costs.

I’m on the same boat: I am going to do more play testing over the next couple of weeks to report more reputable data. I feel that with some appropriate point adjustments, everything will be balanced pretty decently and we will have a fun battletome that would allow for multiple play styles. As of now though, the painbringers and twinsouls are just too expensive. They may be ok for casual or narrative play, but are overpriced for anything competitive. The Lord of Pain and Shardspeaker may need some adjustment as well, but there is more leeway with the shardspeaker because his buff and debuff applies to anything, and can be added to any chaos army (besides Khorne lol). Fiendbloods are the biggest miss, and the additional damage on their weapon profiles will do a lot to alleviate them; but even with 2 and 3 damage they’re still only a +5 save unit that hits on 4s. Though the 3 wounds and high movement speed will help their survivability and threat range, it’s hard to gauge how efficient they will be without additional testing after the assumed changes are made. I am also hoping that within the campaign books that are being released, that they add a battalion that supports fiendbloods. I have a funny suspicion that they were rushed or changed last minute, and that’s why they were released so poorly, as every new unit released I’ve seen has always been associated to a battalion.

For the purpose of holding objectives, yes, as they’re far more resilient and cheaper. A squad of 15 chaos warriors with shields protects you against mortal wounds, allows to reroll saves so long as there’s at least ten models in the unit, and is 30 wounds. A unit of 10 painbringers is more expensive despite being 20 wounds, and although they are allow to reroll saves in any sized unit, they do not have the ability to protect themselves against mortal wounds. In terms of damage output, painbringers come ahead by a decent bit. Their weapons have rend, and they cause mortal wounds on a 6 to hit, which also generates an additional attack. They’re also a bit faster, with a movement of 6 inches. However, for what you’re purchasing they’re very expensive. When it comes to Slaanesh, and AoS in general, competitively it’s best to invest points into units that will be causing damage. Chaos warriors are cheap enough to be taken in bulk to anchor objects, giving you the option to purchase heavy hitters like a KoS, a unit of fiends, or Glutos and Sigvald.

That looks fantastic, love the Windigo/Tribal head. I saw your other conversion with the Painbringers, and those are great as well; the Wild Rider heads fit so well with the rest of the model. I can’t find any good bits sites with the parts to do some basic head swaps, as it seems they are always out of stock.

I’m pretty happy to see that people are having success with the new battletome. It seems to me that the way to go, competitively, is to take a small number of ranged/anvil battleline units that can hold objectives, while focusing the majority of points towards heroes or damage dealers/utility like fiends or Slickblades. So far, I’ve seen that iron golems and chaos warriors are great choices, as well as minimum-sized units of Blissbarb archers; both can sit on objectives while the rest of the army moves up to cause havoc. KoS are still the stars of the show, but our new mortal special characters are also pretty great as well. Slickblades can also run around and do some decent damage as harassment-based units. However, I haven’t heard any positive news about painbringers, twinsouls, and Fiendbloods. I’ve read that twinsouls had some positive results against DoK, and I can imagine them doing well against other low armored armies such as Ogors or Goblins; however I still feel these units are a bit overpriced for what they bring; especially considering that we can get anvil units that are far cheaper and more efficient at holding objectives. I’m on the fence about Lords of Pain and shardspeakers. I believe that because the mortal foot sloggers are generally not being taken, I haven’t seen them in lists as much; I’m hoping to see more play testing with these guys in addition to the new mortals.

Has anyone play tested the Painbringers? How have they performed? I’m interested to see how they fair against armored units such as blobs of chaos warriors, ardboyz, or stormcasts; other experiences with using them are also welcome 👍

From what I’ve gathered, there are multiple game design teams at GW that handle the releases for AoS, 40k, and the various specialist games. From videos I’ve seen online reviewing the new HoS, the consensus is that we got the short end of the stick because our release was developed by a team that lowballs power levels. Ultimately, it’s a failure to communicate between the writers, play testers, and overall staff.

Personally, I like Sigvald and Glutos a lot. For their points, they’re solid characters and fun to use. Sigvald is a beautiful model to field, and can earn back his value depending if he is positioned correctly, as he only has a 6 inch movement and 6 wounds. A hard hitting assassin with no auras and buffs, he can be a decent hammer or scalpel depending on what you want removed. Glutos is an all-rounder that can hit hard, cast spells, and also provide synergy for the rest of your army. For his value, we are probably going to see Glutos at the center of a lot of lists. I’ve seen people talking about a Archaon the Everchosen/Glutos combo that would allow you to heal Archaon, essentially making him even harder to kill. At first, I thought blissbarbs were overpriced, but their cost seems far more reasonable when you consider their battalion, the Dreaded Carnival. Shooting is a luxury, and any variation is always going to make a unit stand out. Being able to shoot a maximum of 66 shots with -1 rend into something during the hero phase, before your opponent can shoot first or retaliate, is extremely powerful and even somewhat op. This also doesn’t include the opportunity to generate additional attacks. The biggest weakness however, is that our archers are very vulnerable to any sort of attacks. Once they’re targeted, they’re not going to last long. Probably the most delicate glass cannons we have in the book. Both mortal seekers are ok, but would be more reasonable with a small decrease to their costs, especially the Blissbarb seekers. The Slickblades have more potential because they’re very fast, and can cause mortal wounds on 6s. The mortals that need the biggest changes to points are the painbringers, twinsouls, and especially the fiendbloods.

I predict that the most competitive lists we are going to see coming out of HoS, so far, will include in some combination Sigvald, Glutos, Daemonettes (cheapest battleline we have), and a KoS (summoned or taken via points); Perhaps also Blissbarbs and Seekers. A lot of the mortal stuff is just too overpriced to include in competitive play, but for causal/narrative it might be ok. The only exceptions are Glutos and Sigvald, who are great in their own ways. Across the internet people are generally in agreement that our book is generally weak, and I suspect a point decrease around spring.

From what I am gathering from your experience, as well as others who’ve been experimenting with the new tomb, it feels like a lot of the mortal stuff could use a decrease in point costs. Painbringers could be brought down to about 120-130ish range. I have a feeling that (hopefully) in the next month or two, based on feedback and play testing, we’re going to get a faq that gives a decent decrease to some of our units.

In my previous posts, I had said that there was nothing in the release that seemed to interest me much, and that I will be holding back from purchasing the battletomb because I felt the mortal release is a disappoint. Since then, I've given a few days to think, and watch some videos on the subject (The Honest Wargamer and Reroll Ones on Youtube), and read some Goonhammer articles reviewing the battletomb. I've also taken the time to look over the statistics that are being posted here and on various places throughout web, and have done some point/dps comparisons. This release has sparking a number of mixed emotions. Some people are thrilled, and are claiming that there's a lot to be excited about; others are on the complete opposite of the spectrum and are very upset. There is such a division in opinions, that this actually might be one of the most divided releases I've seen in AoS. As a disclaimer, I am no established authority on the matter; I do not run tournaments or work closely with those that balance the game. However, I have been wargaming for 10+ years as a casual and sometimes tournament gamer, and I feel that I've built enough experience to make some confident assessments based on instinct and my knowledge of the game. This being said, there are some disclaimers I wish to establish: - Math is a wonderful tool that can used as evidence, but it is no way proof that something is under or overperforming. There are many, many other factors to consider in order to determine if something is over or underpowered for its points. Some considerations include, but are not limited to: battalions, allegiance abilities, synergy capabilities between other units and heroes, subfaction benefits, and special rules on the warscrolls. Blightkings are a great example. On paper, they don't seem powerful, and by themselves they're not. However, with battalion bonuses they go from being a meh unit to being a fantastic battleline. Khorne is another example, as many of his units have average warscrolls, but once you include the number of easy +1 stackable attack buffs and +1 to hit/wounds the army can receive, this changes very quickly. A 10 man bloodwarrior unit will decimate low-armored targets due to numerous stackable buffs that aren't represented on the warscroll. Math gives us an insight, but is far from the full truth. - Buffing isn't the only factor to consider, there's also debuffs. Many armies have the ability to debuff stats or outright deny abilities that other armies will use, and it's important to consider that when looking at base stats, they will be altered for better or worse. Tzeentch is hard to play against because of it's strong shooting, magic, and ability to provide very strong debuffs. Expect to have units debuffed or have their abilities nullified within our army. - Playtesting is very important, and I absolutely agree that it is necessary to test before making any final decisions. The biggest challenge with playtesting however, is that sometimes it's in a controlled environment and is unable to account for many different factors. Usually, GW would use tournament data, but because of the past year's turbulence many important events were cancelled. The winter FAQ Should have helped alleviate the many problems that BoC and Sylvaneth have (both under preforming armies). The FAQ brought very little change and players were upset; GW's reasoning was that there was little to no tournament data to use as a base for the changes. With this considered, my opinions are very mixed. As a mortals player, I have to say I am let down, and I do believe there needs to be some reasonable point adjustments based on the factors I've included above, but there are a couple mortal units that stand out. However, Daemon players are going to be happy with what they've received, and there will be competitive builds using Daemon units. I've hid the content because it's a lot, but it essentially outlines my feelings towards the release. This is what I've gathered with some careful analysis over the past couple of days: I apologize for the long post, there's just a lot to unpack. Overall, I just think we need some decent point decreases within a good portion of the mortal range, and maybe a few of the Daemons as well. The only unit I feel needs a total rework/massive decrease is the Fiendbloods because of how little they contribute to the army. Regarding emailing GW, I do think a concrete and respectful email is perfectly ok because as mentioned, point decreases would really make these units shine a lot more; the biggest concern is what to do with the Fiendbloods.

I very much agree that if painbringers were 100 point that it would be far more reasonable. 200 points for a 20 wound unit would be something worth considering, and I hope that GW revalues some of the point costs for these units. So far, as I look at the battletomb more my stance that the units are underwhelming for their point costs is unchanged. However, as you mentioned with the right point adjustments it will be far more balanced. The only two units I feel they really did dirty were the Fiendbloods and Slickblade Seekers. the Fiendbloods need a overhaul in terms of point costs and rules: they’re not the shock assault unit that was promised. The Slickblades are in a better place, however they still need some reworks to make viable on the charge. Even the battalions don’t play to our strengths, they just seem very boring and out of place. Not to mention the lack of synergy with StD and BoC. I’m going to write an email to them later; I’m not angry just a bit confused and disappointed at some of the balancing within the battletomb. Fighting chaos of any variety should be scary, not underwhelming. I’m also not saying we should be overpowered, but there should be a sense of “oh snap he brought painbringers” when you seen them approach.

Truthfully, and I really do t mean to be the pessimist, but so far nothing to me seems to be interesting besides the Lord of Gluttony and Sigvald. Everything is just very overpriced, and doesn’t do anything well. Fiendbloods are the worst example, and I don’t know how they managed to release them with stats and rules like that; the other units are either just ok or below average. I'm happy to say that painbringers are probably the “best” new unit, but to say they’re good is really stretching it. The +4 reroll save is nice, but only two attacks at damage 1? Plus they only have 2 wounds. 10 painbringers would cost you 300 points, against a Mortek Guard blob of 20 (260 points) they’ll drop like flies. Painbringers are subpar, and fall to dedicated melee units.

Honestly, what bothers me the most is the lack of transparency and the sketchy behavior that GW portrays. As an analogy, it’s sort of like how game developers at E3 show off these really awesome “gameplay demos” that aren’t reflective of the game’s final release. It’s the same for GW when they market to us. Leading up the release, Fiends were described as being “engines of destruction” with razor sharp claws that snip off heads, and that they’re going to be very scary shock assault units. Clearly that’s not the case. if they were just honest about what was coming, then I wouldn’t be as upset; but the fact of the matter is that GW doesn’t tease rules that they are confident in. The Dark Angels got a lot of love because they’re very powerful; other releases that are weak don’t get as much covered because they’re afraid of scaring away their customers. Don’t quote me on this, but I’m 80% confident that I heard that the covid has impacted GW’s ability to play test, which makes sense considering that the UK recently underwent another lockdown due to the new strain. However, I feel it’s just common sense just by simply glancing at the warscroll. Slaangors will be destroyed by pretty much anything point-to-point. Blood warriors, mortek guard, witch aelves, fyerslayers, etc. will slap them around without effort, and they’re all troops! In my humble opinion, people should voice their disappointment. At least it would spark discussion that can hopefully get their attention. Minimum is a +1 damage increase to their attacks.

I spoke too soon. Slaangors are awful; what the hell were they thinking? Easily a unit of Mortek Guard (130 pt) and witch elves are far, far, far superior to them; Fiendbloods don’t even come close to these standard battleline. Now I believe my initial assumption was correct: that GW knew the rules were underwhelming and purposely didn’t tease rules otherwise it would destroy hype. The leaks have been released, and suffice to say I’m not gonna buy the battletomb. I might buy Sigvald and the painbringers because they’re beautiful models and I do want to paint them up, but now that I do the math it seems that GW dropped the ball on this. Just a thought, maybe we should write to GW? Get a petition to change them to better damage and stats. In most cases I would just let it go, but rules are so bad that they might be the most overpriced and useless unit in the game. If enough people express disinterest through a petition, maybe we can promote some change?

I’m very happy that I was wrong in predicting that the battletomb will being underwhelming. My initial guess was that because GW was being hesitant to release rule teasers, that there was going to be some prominent unwanted changes that would have deflated hype. From the leaks, I am confident that the release is going to be decent. The Blissbarb seekers are the only unit to me that seems “meh” so far, though to be fair there are still a lot of unknowns. Sigvald is a blender, and on the charge he’s going to tear up whatever is unfortunate to be on the receiving end. The +6 mortal wounds is nice for the painbringers, anything that allows for mortal wounds to be dealt is always a big plus. Assuming that there are more rules on the warscrolls and decent battalions, I’m not as worried about the twinsouls not having rend; I have a feeling there will be other ways to buff them via battalions or synergies. There are still a lot of unknowns, but from what I’ve gathered I’ll have the option to put together a nice list that includes Sigvald, some painbringers, a Lord of Pain, and a shardspeaker or two. Optionally adding some Fiendbloods (glass cannon unit?) and Daemon support heroes like a Contorted Epitome or Infernal Enrapturess (assuming they can benefit mortals), and it will be a decent core. I can also try to summon in some Fiends, or other daemon units I feel will best support me.

I’m so excited! I can’t wait to put my Slaanesh Mortals against my Khorne Bloodbound Mortal force. GW really couldn’t have released this anymore slower; the lack of rules previews is hurting (not in the good ways that Slaanesh promises). Still, regardless of the rules are hot or not, my money is gonna go for Sigvald, but I’m still stumped on how to base him. I’m thinking of going for a desert base or beach base to match the general Persian theme that’s prevailing, but I’m unsure.

That’s my general plan going into this; I’m gonna hold back buying the content until I get a better feel of what the units do. What I will buy out of pure hobby is Sigvald and the painbringers just because I love the models, and I’ve been dreaming about a Slaanesh chaos warrior equivalent for a loooonnnggggg time. When they announced the myrmidesh painbringers I was both surprised and awed at the sculpts; I can’t wait to see how they and Sigvald look in Vallejo liquid gold.

For the purpose of hobby if, I’m definitely going to buy Sigvald and a handful of painbringers, maybe some Fiendbloods as well. The models are fantastic, and they’re going to be a lot of fun to paint; I’ve also always been a big fan of Sigvald. For the rules however, I’m gonna hold off buying the new battletomb until I see some concrete details in the form of teasers or early rule releases. It’s lot like I’m rushing to play some games anytime soon, and if the rules are unchanged and subpar, why would I want to invest in that? I can always pick up the book down the road if I’m able to eventually have time to get a few games started.

Maybe the covid could be playing a factor? Perhaps the disruption that the covid has been causing has hampered GW and the marketing from releasing any news, or at least had made them careful in releasing info due to the disruption? Just a few coins for thought, as perhaps they’ve focused their energies towards other components being that Slaanesh is essentially finished and ready to release.

I don’t mean to be pessimistic, but it could indicate that the battletomb has little to no changes regarding the current Daemon units and battalions, or the mortal units aren’t attractive on the warscrolls. Maybe the reason GW is not showing off as much content is because they know if they show us something unchanged or “weak”, it will discourage us from purchasing the battletomb. In the past, Games Workshop and the marketing team have been sketchy regarding content that they’re not fully confident in. Arguably, in my opinion, the worst example of this was the relatively recent Deathwatch Codex that was released back in October. The details they showed were scarce, and when they were questioned about whether Primaris would have special issue ammunition, the marketing team quoted that they would via Twitter. This was a boarder-line lie: the Primaris only had access to special issue ammunition through the implementation of a very poorly/practically useless stratagem. I hope that I am wrong, but if GW was confident that they would release something that would make people happy, they would tease it more. The Dark Angels got a lot of love leading up to their release, and they’re amazing right now; so why not us? After Sigvald was revealed I was hoping we would at least get some hype for him in the form of rule teasers, but it seems GW didn’t want to reveal the details on him either; it’s very strange. Maybe tomorrow or Friday will get something? My hopes are high and I don’t mean to cause fear or doubt, but I am getting off bad vibes that they haven’t even teased any news rules besides the Lord of Pain giving us Painbringers/Twinsouls as troops.

I bet there’s going to be ways to make myrmidesh and symbaresh battleline, and also ways to buff the respected units, through the use of special characters or battalions. I’m hoping that if their warscrolls are subpar/average, strong battalions will make the new mortal units worth taking.

It is torturing that they are giving us some awesome short stories and lore stipites, but nothing regarding rule teasers! I feel the hype building speed; the Slaanesh release is so exciting that it feels like a holiday. Everyone is seems to be on the edge of their seat and very positive, and I am on the same boat; hopefully sometime this weekend they give us a rule tease. Regarding the recent teasers, the Lord of Gluttony parallels distinctively from Sigvald, yet both are very much Slaaneshi. I really like this, and I hope that in the future releases that the writers and GW continue to creatively explore Slaanesh's diversity. I also assumed the Lord of Gluttony would be a cannibal, but I didn't expect him to be eating the raw brains and flesh of his victims so carelessly; the way they described him biting into the brain like it's a common snack and having the fluids rip from his mouth is vividly shuddering and gross. Imagining his followers going into a feasting frenzy after the battle also isn't pleasant to imagine. This is the type of behavior I would expect from beastmen, skaven, or other mindless/animalistic chaos followers. It seems that the creative teams/writers aren't holding back when it comes to the grittier and darker realty that Slaanesh represents.