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Nightseer2012

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Posts posted by Nightseer2012

  1. 59 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

    I think I'd lean more toward greatweapons if you just want a big hammer. If you want something a little more anvil-y, though, shields genuinely seem like a decent option. The army may not lack anvils, but having a heavy hitting summonable, but slow, anvil makes for a decent contrast to the faster but similarly heavy hitting Blood Knights who aren't summonable. I may very well try some shields in a TTS game I'm playing later, in fact, because that sounds pretty sweet.

    Looking at the "new" shielded Grave Guard, they are statistically close to Mortek Guard, which I find kind of funny.  I would love to see an in depth comparison between the two, considering in OB Mortek are the whole infantry, I wonder if it is feasible to use Shielded GG as mainstay infantry instead of just a hammer now that the extra +1 to save is now "native".

    In any case, the only reason I hesitate to use them shielded is because our army is chalk full of anvils.  I find in most of my lists I need better hammers.  Even most of our hammers are kind of anvilly.  Blood Knights don't really burst down targets, they wear them down using mortal wounds, a better save, and Hunger based attrition.  For its points, a VLoZD is certainly capable of killing lesser targets in one combat, but is geared (again with its better save & hunger) to dive in and preferably cripple a strong enemy, than outlast them.

    GG w/GW are a hammer, a glass hammer, but a true hammer none the less.  Everyone here knows how scary they are if you can get a whole bundle of 20 into something unprotected.  When they connect, they regularly out preform my VLoZD, but it requires that they connect.  I guess all of this isn't me disagreeing with you, I am actually intrigued about the "new" shielded option of GG and the uses we could get out of them.  This is more me commenting on how the paradigm of our 3rd edition book has shifted even more into the "you win by grinding" mindset with almost every army build, and I am somewhat loathe to give up my last true blender unit, lol.

    • Like 3
  2. 1 hour ago, Halkbat said:

    I want to like the new flamers but 190 points for 6 wounds is just too fragile even with the improved save.

    I feel like flamers will shine the most in Silver Tower deep strike or as summons, but even having them out near a demon hero for the -1 to hit and an increased save it still more resilient than they were.  I feel like making use of "disruption" Chaos Spawn summons is also going to be something I try to make more use of in this battletome.  T1 Disrupt key units with Arcane Totem & Bolt of Change, move up the Summoner & Magister with a "Silver Tower" squad of flamers and horrors and pick something to melt with ranged firepower?

  3. 2 hours ago, Boar said:

    Regardless he cannot have subfaction keyword, first paragraph of warscroll

    Yea, I feel like they wrote his warscroll in its entirety to be pretty good, but forgot that sub factions are a thing.  So instead of having to re balance him around sub factions, they just added into his equipment restrictions that he cant have a sub faction.  Granted, if he DID get access to LoB buffs, I would still take him at a +50 pts increase, so I get why they didn't let it happen.  It just feels weird when they add these restrictions without any rules to back it up.  At least Nagash has "Warmaster", but for this guy, it really just feels tacked on as an afterthought, to the point a lot of people online are missing it entirely.

    All in all, he is a solid pick, who does a different job than a normal VL, direct combat instead of a VL support combat, and still good at his cost.  Just the "snuck in" sub faction thing bothers me.  It reminds me of the whole Lumineth Loreseeker Unique thing where GW keeps flipping back and forth on it.

  4. 1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

    Everyone loves allies when they are an optional thing, but when the best way to play your faction becomes allying units from other factions it's kinda not as fun. See Cities and Stormcast right now. Or the opposite case: When the models of your own faction are best used ina completely different army, like with Legion of Grief for a while.

    I agree, but I guess my feelings lean more toward that this is part of any game that leans so heavily into asymmetrical warfare.  I feel I would be more ok with this thought process if the warscroll was better and the allegiance abilities were light buffs for flavor, but that doesn't seem to be the theme of 3.0 right now.  If you "need" an allegiance ability to take a warscroll, than imo you have already failed step 1 of good unit design.  On the other end of the spectrum, you are right, we don't want a situation where NH absolutely HAS to take two units of Blood Knights as allies to be competitive or something like that.

    • Like 3
  5. 2 hours ago, Boggler said:

    Order can basically take any ally from whoever they want. Will Death get a similar treatment?

    So my observation is related.  A theme I notice for 3.0 is that most units are "meh" on their warscroll, and their allegiances are what bring them to a good level.  Even IF the NH book makes the Crossboos decent through allegiance abilities, their warscroll is still not that great. 

    It discourages allying different factions quite heavily, which is something I love to do.  It is actually why my Death armies grew the way they have.  I was able to grow my collection in any way I wanted, and I knew they could work together at least decently.  It is actually something I would love to go back to, I actually have a Path to Glory coming up where I am taking Soulblight simply because they have a territory they can take that lets them share the Soulblight Keyword with Nighthaunt and Flesh Eater allies.

    • Like 2
  6. 12 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

    Arena of Shades has gotten more coverage than Fury of the Deep. 

    Ah, ok, I fully admit I didn't pay attention to Fury of the Deep very much since I have little interest in those two factions.  Just goes to show, feelings vs facts is hard when it comes to marketing vs my personal laziness.

    • Like 1
  7. 2 hours ago, Iksdee said:

    Someone might almost think they are trying to sell less Arena of Shades boxes. I guess most people dont compare statlines when looking to buy something because GW does not seem to care about upselling their new stuff.

    Now that you mention it, it does "feel" like Arena of Shades hasn't gotten a lot of attention.  I mean, it is available for preorder, and it didn't even get a whole article to itself that day, just the usual copy announcement from the preview article a week before. 

    It got an unboxing video, 1 article about the one rule that the Scriptor gets, 1 article about the 1 rule the High Gladiatrix gets, and 1 article about the 1 rule that lets the Crossboos fire through terrain.  Is it just me or does that not feel like a lot?  Did the Fyreslayer/Iodeneth box only get this much coverage, or am I just being over-critical?

    • Like 1
  8. 1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

    I also agree that AoS is in a strange place as far as battleshock is concerned. Both Nighthaunt and Gravelords suffer pretty badly from it, despite their high bravery. Not that I have anything in principle against skeletons crumbling after a successful enemy attack, but it kinda feels like the Necromancer should be giving them battleshock immunity or something.

    I agree in a sense.  I think Bravery/Battleshock just needs a whole rework (which we wont get for years now).  In the majority of games I play, I may see one or two vanilla battleshock rolls.  Most of the time it is "Inspiring Presence", "Oh they are immune to battleshock near this hero/feature", "They are immune to battleshock".  And the rest of the time it is a squad of 3+ multiwound models with 9 Bravery, and you finally manage to kill one, but they are such a low model count that battleshock doesn't matter, because they are dead by the time they have to roll it.  That last one is very prevalent now in 3rd ed with the strength of save stacking+multi wound models.

    Skeletons should 100% roll a battleshock after losing over half their unit, no question there, but at least let me roll twice for the models you are penalizing me for losing twice.  Especially after you took away all my shiny +1 attack stacking to skeletons (admittedly over powered)... just let them do 1 thing well, plz thank you.

    • Like 1
  9. I mean, I may start arguing for the more beneficial version.  The amount of points I have to invest to get skeletons to survive combat with literally anything nowadays is getting ridiculous.  Suffering double battleshock for losing models because "that model still died this phase", but not being allowed to roll another resurrect even though "that model still died this phase" is actually a surprisingly frustrating.  I may start arguing that you get one or the other since they are based on the same phrasing.  Like, if you want me to take x2 battleshock, I will roll "all" my resurrections both times if I benefit from Danse Macabre.

    Battleshock is already such a weird thing this edition.  I mean hell, I just went through a game this weekend, where the ONLY thing in the whole game that even had to roll battleshock was my x20 skeleton squad, because I lost something like 22 skeletons in one phase, and only survived because of Skeletal Legions.

    • Like 1
  10. Eh... I think you would see lists with 1-2 a lot more.  Their warscroll (even without the objective & deep strike abilities) are one of the better heroes that lumineth could use.  Being able to hold an objective if you get their first is very strong in general.  While other A+ tier armies would be able to deal with this just fine with all their various flavors of nonsense, other "normal" armies, and ALL the armies with the least GW attention would be at immediate disadvantages, especially considering you would also see squads of ablative Blademasters a lot more to protect the Loreseekers, as it is one of the only tools to defend scinari foot heroes the lumineth has outside of screening.

    Personally I think the abilities should be toned down.  I would remove the "deep strike", forcing you to deploy the Loreseeker in a different way if you wanted to get to an objective first to claim it.  Speed of Hysh, Transporting Vortex, Soulscream Bridge... there are plenty of options for movement, even inside the Lumineth book, it would just not be all self contained, and guaranteed on turn one.  I agree with BadDice, that I think the Unique tag was put here because someone didn't feel like rewriting the warscroll in a more balanced way.  So now we don't get Command Traits or Artifacts on one of the cooler styles of hero, one who is famous for collecting Artifacts, lol.  And it never gets used.

    • Like 2
  11. And relying on GG to make a 9" charge out of the Graveyard is... a longshot, even with rerolls.  I try to leave my GG in the grave for a flank charge over time, but then you have plan for zoning, have a reroll prepared for the charge (command point or command trait), preferably have access to Chronomatic cogs... it is a lot of things to have to go right for a charge out of the Grave.

  12. 1 hour ago, Honk said:

    They were a thing for AoS 1.0 LoN… deep in the vault there should be a 60 puppies list somewhere.
    Pure hate, no coherency, wonderful 

    Yea, but back then they were still overshadowed by 40x Skeleton Warriors w/Spears getting up to ~400 attacks in a phase.  Now that "reinforcements" are a thing, the thought had left my mind entirely.  Now I am interested, just because 30 wolves sounds hilarious.

  13. 2 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

    Pretty excited to give it a go. I don't thin 30 Wolves are as unwieldy as I thought.

    Jebus... I don't know why, but it never occurred to me to ever reinforce a unit of wolves.  Must be because I used to prefer running units of 5xDW for perfect little cheap screens.  60 Wounds of wolves as a speedy blob actually sounds pretty hilarious to try.  Definitely check in after you try it.

  14. 9 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

    Personally, I want to try emulating the Nagash plus 80 skeletons lists of AoS 1. So I would probably go with 2x30 skeletons and 20 grave guard and try to grind out my victories. Heroes, artefacts and command traits still to be decided.

    So Nagash, 3x 20 Skeletons, 1x20 GG, a Vampire Lord, and Umbral Spellportal gets you to 1955.  I like the idea of LoB to give the Lord Soulbound Garments and Arcane Expertise.  Soul-Crushing contempt meshes well with LoB and Nagash’s spells, but that really depends what army your fighting.

    Or easily go Vyrkos to get the +1 to wound on the GG, Sangsyron on the Lord and go for extra choppiness.

    Either way, it is all Summonable, so your getting those bodies back.  All depends if your aiming for “fun vs winning” I suppose.

    • Haha 1
  15. 23 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

    The old Supreme Lord command was super good on anything that could hit and save on a 2+, but the new ability moving our 6+ ward to a 5+ is better on anything with a 4+ save or worse, if my math is correct. With that and the better healing, a SUMMONABLE heavy Nagash horde list might at least be worth checking out.

    Do you think it would be better to try and swing for more than one unit of GG in this kind of army, or just one BIG unit, and fill the rest of the map with skeletons/zombies so that the enemy army can't move, lol.  Either one would focus on getting the best out of Summonable, and just making your opponent lose because their arms are so tired from killing chumps.

  16. Well, I guess on the bright side of things, I like the idea of any of our units having the opportunity of a 5+ ward.  Mystic Shield and Death Magic Incarnate puts our Deathrattle at 4+/5++, and with Supreme Lord of the Undead, plenty of skeletons will be standing back up.  Obviously still relying on Grave Guard to do the killing, but with a 4+/5++, healing 4-8 models a turn, even normal skeletons can tarpit pretty high above their weight class.

  17. Note for people who use them;  Both Vampire templates created using the Anvil of Blood in WD issue #464 have the "Vampire Lord" keyword.  You then specifically create a LoB VL using a Deathlance to benefit from this issues "Martial" bonus (since there is no option for a Soulbound Blades weapon, only a Soulbound Rapier), while the "Arcane" bonus is a lot easier to make use of, since at no point does the Anvil of Blood system give your character a "Zombie Dragon" keyword.

    Very niche for people who still use the Anvil rules, but it is there if you want it.

  18. 2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

    Not to mention +2 to unbind! That's what I think will really make an impact. It really levels the playing field against casters with big bonuses. Big bonuses to cast are great because they increase your chance to get spells out in two ways: By helping you meet the casting value, and by making the spell harder to unbind. If you have a bonus to unbind that is as large as your opponent's bonus to cast, most spells become coin flips pretty much. Lumineth will hate it, that's for sure.

    Real shame that Neferata doesn't seem to benefit.  Getting another attack on any of her profiles, or even another +1 to cast Dark Mist would be nice.

  19. I always liked the foot Vampires for their command ability already, letting them cast on a +2 is pretty awesome, and just reinforces my taking them for LoB. 

    4 attacks on a Deathlance for the VLoZD is nothing to sneeze at, especially with those charges, but it sticks around so if he gets stuck in he at least has some more killing power.  Martial+Soulbound Raiment+Flaming Weapon+Premeditated Violence (Or just stick with Aura of Dark Majesty for more resilience)?  Then stick Foetid Breath on the mount, and your VLoZD will be doing a few more points of reliable damage a turn.

    • Like 3
  20. That would be a nice nod to the old customization rules, so would that just look like another command trait, but it doesn't have to be your general?  That could be nice. 

    I am guessing we will probably have to wait for this "winter update" outside of the white dwarf before we see bigger changes.  Admittedly it is wishlisting, but I want that bigger update to show Avengorii some love.  I do very much love the Mother of Nightmares and Vengorian Lord by themselves, but their subfaction is definitely the weakest imo, which is a shame in the edition which is supposed to be the "Age of the Beast".

  21. 1 hour ago, Honk said:

    only the Black knights are &@*+$#… now if they also get riders of ruin movement in the winter faq 🤔

    only the movement, not the pass over MWs 💀👍

    While they DO DESPERATELY need something, I don't think it would be Riders of Ruin.  It doesn't match their lore, Blood Knights are famously prideful and this is supposed to represent the Blood Knight literally leaping over/through their enemy in order to reach a worthy foe.  Black Knights are supposed to be Wights, not just armored skeletons, and wights are supposed to be almost as difficult to kill as vampires.  Another point of armor, or another wound maybe, while they are also missing the Cursed Weapons that normal on-foot Grave Guard get.  At the end of the day, I would rather they be a little more tanky than killy.  They kind of suffer from not having a defined role.  Wolves are the light skirmishers (even though you have to take 10 now, ugh), while BK are the heavy cav (very tanky and moderately killy).

    GW giving them "skeleton but on a horse" will always confuse me.  Add to the confusion deathly charge, which makes you think you WANT them charging, but they are so pillow fisted that their literal ONLY wound output IS their deathly charge.  I hope they either make them better (more resilient is my hope), or make them cheaper so they are at least not too expensive to be the 120pt arcane missile that they currently are.  And -10 wont be enough, it will have to be a huuuge drop in points to make Black Knights worth it.

    • Like 1
    • Haha 1
  22. 6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

    That works quite well for the idea of an unstoppable tide of the undead: No matter what you do, there is no way to stop those zombies and skeletons from just getting up again.

    Speaking of, I am learning to hate Sequitors all over again.  Their Sequitor-Prime stops returning units within 3" (Skeletons, Zombies, Invigorating Aura, and Deathly Invocation), and they can chose to have a 5++ from Aetheric Channeling.  I guess I am just happy they are not also the new Thunderstrike, and don't have 4+ re-rollable anymore, but my one opponent has always had a solid wall of Sequitors to hide his stuff behind already.

    On another subject, I saw people mentioning taking down SoB on the earlier pages and that got me thinking about Monters.  Has anyone theorized what we will be doing about the incoming Draconith lists, or tips about SoB (or Death for that matter) taking down Monsters in general?  AoS 3.0 makes me miss dedicated monster hunters like the Necrosphinx in Death.

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