Kasper

This is just false. As has been discussed countless times, also here on TGA. Theres a lot of planning and strategy to the whole priority mechanic. Play around it or bank etc. If the "double turn" was as black and white as you make it out to be, explain how its always the same good players winning tournaments over and over? Are they just.. More lucky? Yes the mechanic is probably problematic for "bad players" because they simply dont know how to deal with it, play around with it or plan for it and hence it feels like it "ruins games". But guess what, they can opt out of it where as its pretty much needed for tournament play.

Why cant you just houserule the double turn? If its so bad for casual games then I dont get why people simply just dont agree to not play with it.

I dont think I could disagree more all around. 1. You could argue ANY involvement from Games Workshop = They want to make money. Doing any kind of balance changes keeps the game going which means they sell models, and make more money. I dont think they intentionally made a "monster and hero meta" so people tossed their armies in the bin and had to buy new monsters. People complained that monsters bracketed too fast and generally werent worthwhile to bring in AoS2. It also contradicts your last point. 2. I think we have seen a number of cases where this just isnt true and the new beautiful model is simply worthless competitive. On the flip side do you think it would be a good idea for them to create new Stormcast models, only for the best models to be those people bought back in AoS1 pre points? The new models have to be strong to inject new life into a faction and keep things from becoming stale. 3. If armies had zero weakness then you would see their win % being absurdly high (like 75%), which is generally not the case. Theres a case with Sons of Behemat where its almost impossible to not go 3-2 in a tournament and thats really because their only weakness is their amount of wounds. If an army can bring enough damage early on they lose, otherwise they win pretty much by default. There is no other army with such stats that indicate they are neigh unbeatable. And yes it has absolutely to do with the players themselves. A lot of people simply cant/hate to admit being wrong (they played bad) or they simply cant face the facts and realize the truth and would rather complain/whine endlessly about a unit or army than trying to figure out a way to win. Its a loser mentality. I have fought people where I asked if they were sure on their deployment because they just threw the game and they said yes and didnt want to make any changes. We played 1 turn and they lost, then backtracked and they were allowed to deploy differently and could right away see the mistake. Blaming this on GW is absolutely INSANE. 4. The armies in the top are actually incredibly varied and the meta has never been as healthy as it currently is. AoS2 was much more dominated by a couple of armies in the top, but these days you almost see any army going 5-0 which was unheard of in earlier versions of AoS.

I think it depends on what kind of list you run. From my experience my opponent dont focus the Warchanters as first prio due to two things - I generally always have them sit behind some terrain/out of range and if they focus the Warchanter then they are still gonna be hit hard. Most armies that can remove your Warchanters so easily cant really tank damage and those that count on tanking damage generally cant just snipe your Warchanters from afar. I use 3 if double Warlord Batallion and otherwise 2 and from experience thats just fine. I dont want to sink too many points into heroes and risk not having enough wounds on the table.

My issue with true line of sight is that it directly causes issues with 2 huge aspects of the hobby for me. First off it makes any bases you create a disadvantage if they elevate your models that dont want to be sniped. The reserve is obviously true for your shooting units. Second off it really messes with conversions, kitbashes, proxies etc. which are all a big part of the hobby. Models might suddenly have a different size, pose etc. It absolutely baffles me that true line of sight is a thing considering what this hobby is made up of.

People are way too quick at blaming the loss of their game on the opponent playing an OP army, powercreep, double turn, there was nothing to do differently and they played flawlessly etc. instead of realizing the loss was more than likely due to simply bad play.

This sounds like a great idea if you are tailoring your list towards a specific matchup, but for an all-comers list there is no way I would pick Touched by the Waagh on my MK. You need that Amulet in basically every other matchup and even against Bowsnakes having no ward save is rough.

Its a cute idea but doesnt work. If you want to push 3 monsters around I would suggest Mega Gargants or Stonehorns.

You can not field Bonesplitterz/Kruleboyz units in an Ironjawz army. The only ally is Gitz.

I like the idea but both the Mangler and the Gargant is kinda ****** honestly. Rogue Idol is an interesting choice and one I have thought a lot about. Rogue Idol "almost" has the same survivability of a MK due to his 5+ ward and damage last time I checked. The only letdown is lack of flying and lack of hero actions/tripple commands, but it is a way to convert a 2 MK list into a 1 drop list. I got a game in with my 1 drop Ironsunz list with 1 MK, 2x WC, 5 Brutes, 10 Brutes, 10 Ardboyz and 2x6 Pigs. It was against a SBGL player with loads of bodies like 2x20 zombies, 30 skellies and 2x20 graveguard. Not sure if the list was optimized tbh but I won pretty big considering I also played like ******, like I failed 2 battle tactics but was up 10 VPs by the end of turn 4 in Savage Gains. Was too busy messing around/bants. 10 Brutes really put a dent in things and it was probably a perfect matchup to deny him objectives. He got the spell from the coven throne off against my MK twice which meant he was barely fighting in that game. Giving him turn 1 and constantly being in the driver seat was super refreshing and it felt good to be "in control" of the priority. Gonna give the list some more play for sure.

I guess he wasnt in Tzeentch? Having a hero last for that long vs Archaon is certainly not how my matchups typically go.. Especially with him fighting twice and rerolling all his hits and wounds.

I mean I dont entirely disagree, but my point was just that the "fix isnt easy" if you intend to keep the current units somewhat viable. Its like "how do you fix sentinels?" bruh just increase points by 3x and they are "fixed" aka tossed in the bin, which ultimately the community probably would benefit from but it isnt the right fix if you want to keep sentinels around in some capacity just like with archaon etc.

Its not an easy fix though, well depending on what kind of a result you wish to see. If you capped saves at +1 before rend Im pretty sure you can toss Archaon and a bunch of other units in the bin.

If you have any Brutes those arms slot right into the Pigs.

Tzeentch Archaon and well Archaon in general (largely just S2D tbh) has had an amazing showing the past months since AoS3 got released. The win rate has been incredibly high and a lot of tournaments were either won or podiumed in general. So I guess people were just bad at figuring out how to beat this guy then? You dont see him "as much" anymore which is due to a number of reasons. I just find it naive that the underlying solution from you is "just play better" instead of realizing that there might be something wrong. When Archaon has performed THAT well for so long, it should speak for itself? Archaon isnt the end-all-be-all but he is one of those models that exacerbate the issue with save stacking. I know there are corner cases of people like Jack or Bill performing exceptionally well with lists that supposedly shouldnt do well, but this situation is not one of them.

I somewhat get where you are coming from with this but I still find your logic flawed. Your point seems to be there is no issue at all because the whole save-stacking thing is a "skill", but for it to be a skill debate everyone needs to have the same tools or access to those same tools or access to ways to deal with it. Thats simply not the case. It has created a "have" and "have not" situation with many armies. I would also argue it isnt difficult to play S2D, point at your Archaon and click and he gets all those amazing buffs for free without your opponent really being able to do jack about it.

I was editing my post and list as you were typing 😋 I have found Hunters to not be all that meaningful. On paper it looks great to stick Pigs in it, but honestly I have had very few situations where it mattered at all. Most of the really dominating/strong lists atm dont feature monsters, or if they do they are not combat monsters or simply dont matter - Like both Archaon or Morathi is gonna shred your Hunters unit no matter what. I think Stonehorns is about the only matchup where I really value Hunters. Its not entirely about being afraid of the current 1 drop lists, its just as much to put pressure on your opponent. I dont think many lists can stand being doubled by Ironjawz so it will certainly change up their play. With them always giving you turn 1, they know it will never happen and can play accordingly. Like both Tz Archaon or DoK will sweat from the thought of you removing their screens in turn 1 then cleaning the board on the double. I checked my most recent tournament and actually a lot of lists were 1-2 drop.

Yeah I already have. Playing with 10 drops is sometimes OK because you can keep throwing garbo on the table and they have zero clue if you intend to go aggressive or not. Against a lot of top armies I find it difficult though, especially shooting armies where the threat of a double is really massive. I just find it difficult to create a proper 1 drop list - First off you are forced to having "just" 2 Warchanters - I generally like to bring 3. Second you have a cap of 5 troop units and with ours being so cheap, the 4 reinforcement limit is actually a big burden. You made me think some more about this though and I have come up with this list below, which I actually kinda like.

This is great and all but what happens when the opponent buffs a mobile and killy piece to the high heavens and then uses it to tie up your stuff? Its not that black and white as you make it out to be. There are also armies where they have an absurd abundance of +saves (like S2D) so yes they can buff multiple units in their frontline.

This is the damage output of a Megaboss on MawKrusha with +1 hit from All-out Attack and +1 damage from a Warchanter.

The game is probably "fine" if you play one of the top 5 armies because they all have the tools to deal with the whole thing and as such it isnt as big of a deal, but the moment you slip down into the "fat middle" it is like playing a completely different game. Yes the meta is diverse and yes a lot of different armies are doing well in the tournament scene, but that doesnt mean the game is "fine" or it is "fun" which is ultimately what a toy soldier hobby should be about. The whole "I think people just need to play better" is such a ****** stupid take. We have tournament stats that indicate it is a problem and not just a "play better" thing. Even many top tier players agree that there currently is an issue which warps the meta in a certain way.

Rend 3 for a single turn on my entire Ironjawz army certainly cracks units open, but the biggest offenders are still not harmed. Its very easy for Archaon to stack +4 save in S2D. This still means hes neigh unkillable when sitting on a 2+ save rerolling 1s. Nagash is somewhat the same and also has access to Finest Hour, PE -1 rend, Mystic Shield and possibly AoD at which point hes also sitting on a 2+ save rerolling 1s despite being hit by my rend 3. Warhammer Weekly spoke about this a couple of weeks ago and suggested that all rerolling save effects are removed and a unit has a cap of a 3+ save unless the warscroll is printed with a better save (like Bastiladon 1+). The math on units just become incredibly dumb once you enter the 2+ save zone and add rerolls ontop. Like, really really dumb. Its a really delicate matter because the moment those two big guys (and other units for that matter) arent allowed to stack saves, they instantly disappear because they become way too easy to bring down in a single turn.

I dont think I NEED to alpha my opponent though, so I generally dont really care how many drops I have. This was the first time I played Bloodtoofs though - I have generally been a worshipper of Ironsunz so I had some Brutes and Ardboyz in my previous list - But I was perfectly fine and able to play the objective game, like I wouldnt be afraid to cast Metamorphosis on a WC and use Ferocious Advance with my 2 MKs for tripple monster +1 VP turn 1 and then try to maximize VPs from there. In my match against my mate above I certainly needed Fast 'Un to get into the position I wanted, especially with a failed teleport, which was hitting the FL from the side - I decided to charge the Mournfang, then pile into the Frostlord - I dont know if it was a mistake not to charge into the FL to try and roar at him, but at the same time I didnt want to be roar'd back. I havent done the math but not sure if +1 save from AoD outweights getting +1 to hit on 15 attacks. Destroyer was also the deciding factor for sure, damage 6 attacks hurt him bad. He didnt see that coming hence he didnt use Finest Hour. He had deployed so there was more than 4" from the Frostlord and to the front of the Mournfang packs, so I wouldnt have been able to double team his Frostlord with my 2 MKs. I think Smelly 'Un is really strong. I have had previous games where I stacked Mystic Shield + Finest Hour on my MK general and with a roar on the opponent it means hes generally hitting on 4s instead of 2s or 3s which is a huge deal survivability wise. He tanked his Frostlord General for 2 turns and took almost zero damage. My plan this time around was to have the MK sit and be a door stop so he couldnt get into the objectives, but the lack of +saves on him meant he got mowed down with some spiky hit rolls from his side. Im sure you could have great success with 2x battle regi instead, but I dont think the alpha playstyle is the end all be all to how you play this army. I also think the real strong armies are 1 drop, so you need to ask yourself if you want to dominate the weaker armies hard by being a 2 drop army or if you want to maximize your opportunity against the strong 1 drop armies.

You cant have 3 Warlord, you need 3 heroes (1 leader and 2 sub commanders) for each Warlord batallion.

Tried out Bloodtoofs and Mega Bossy command trait for the first time yesterday against a mate - He played Ogor Mawtribes with 3x Frostlord, 3x2 Mournfang, 2 wolves and the deepstrike Hrogorth guy. I played with 2x MK, 3 WCs, 1 Shaman and 4x3 Pigs. 2 of the units being in Hunters with the rest in 2 Warlords. Had Amulet + Smelly + Mega Bossy on my general. The 2nd MK had Fast and Destroyer. We had already talked about that I wanted to alpha him and see what my list could do, so we deployed how we normally would and we gave me turn 1 (he had 3 drops vs my 10 drops). This was our deployment. At the end of my turn 1 it looked like this: I had buffed the pigs in the top left corner with Violent Fury and my 2 other MKs got Violent Fury as well. I did multiple silly mistakes which made the game a lot closer than it should have been (I won big time still). My first mistake was that I tried to teleport with the Shaman which obviously failed - I dont know why I even tried, I should have casted Mystic Shield on the MK in the middle which was my general. There was no point in trying to teleport anyways. The MK on the far right side used MD on the 2 unit of Pigs next to him, then used it on himself + Fast 'Un + move to literally get in the top right corner and charged into the back of the Mournfang pack, then piled into the FL and killed it in a turn with Destroyer activated. The other MK used MD on the 2 far left Pigs and himself and he moved up the middle. Impact hits + shooting happened (seriously I keep forgetting shooting with the MKs.. But between 8 attacks on 2s/3s/-1/1 damage and impact hits, you can easily damage enough to secure SnB fun) and at this point it was just starting from one side of the board and Smashing and Bashing all the way through. I called the waagh here so everything was pretty much rend 3 which just shreds. The 3 pigs on the far right killed the heavily wounded Mournfang pack, my general killed the 2 Mournfang in the middle, the Pigs on the far left hand piled into the wolves and killed them, the 3 buffed Pigs next to them on the left wiped the Mournfang and then my Destroyer MK piled into the FL and killed him. I literally fought with everything and he didnt get to fight back. At the end of combat my left pigs move back to the objective. The other buffed unit charges into the FL and locks him in place. My second mistake happened here where I might have been greedy.. They needed a 6" charge to lock the 2nd FL in combat but failed it. I could have just made a move to form a screen between the FL and my 2 MKs. My third mistake happened here and I used Finest Hour on my MK (non general) in the top right corner. The combination of these mistakes lead to him charging my general MK and wiped him in a turn between the impact hits from the charge and him being buffed up. He roared etc. so his rend 2 attacks destroyed my general. If I had used Mystic Shield + Finest Hour there would have been zero chance for him killing my general and instead he would have been forced to go into the corner of the map for the other MK which would have sealed the deal no matter the outcome on the following priority roll. My 3 pigs on the left hand side did 10 damage to the FL on the left hand side. We rolled for priority into turn 2 and I won it, at which point the game was decided right there and then. I decided to give him the turn after agreeing it was over, just to see what would happen. The game went into turn 3 before he only had his general FL left and at this point I would secure 2/3 objectives no matter what he did and I could get all my battle tactics done. So I more than doubled his VPs and we called it after turn 3. Conclusion: I need to try and alpha my opponent more often. Im generally really careful and play the objective game a lot more. Bloodtoofs is amazing - The fact you can move pigs or even charge is so huge. The 3 pigs on the left side locking his FL into combat was huge. It was one of the units in Hunters batallion. Had the right hand side Pigs not failed their 6" charge and thus locking the other FL into combat, it would have been decided turn 1 for sure. Mega Bossy is actually amazing on a mobile army (surprise) where you want to get up into the face of the opponent. 2 Warlord Batallions really help here because you can get 2 free CPs at any time in the start of your hero phase if you decide to go all-in.