Kasper

Yeah it is quite obvious you have a blinding hate towards Orruks from all your posts. My point still stands that it is naive to think you can just slap a point cost on subfactions since they are not treated equally across armies. It will affect external balance, which means GW will have to go through them anyways - If they have to go through them, why not try to fix them rather than introducing a random point cost?

Big Waagh isn't a subfaction, it is an alligiance. 😉 By doing above, you actually just buffed armies like Big Waagh since it doesn't have any subfactions and armies that are required to have subfactions suddenly field less models.

I certainly think too many armies can be a very real issue for the hobby. The more armies, the longer there will be between updates/fixes. On the other hand I want the GW devs to go crazy and keep taking wild shots. Sometimes a new rule will be broken and sometimes it will be bad. Their limited playtesting can't catch it all and that's where FAQs based on feedback has to line things in. But I think their creativity is awesome, and needed to keep the gaming experience fresh. If all armies played the exact same, some of them would more or less feel like reskinned armies. As much as people hate always strike first and double pile-ins etc., it is a part of what makes a different experience when fighting different armies. Your army shouldn't tackle every army the exact same way imo.

My point is: If I play Ironjawz alligiance I often opt out of the subfactions. So if you are gonna tax the subfactions with a point cost, but reduce the cost of models to compensate, you have just flat out buffed my list since I will now be able to afford more stuff. Same if I play Big Waagh alligiance, there simply aren't any subfactions, so you have buffed my army since I can now take more stuff in the list due to cost reductions on models. This means you have effectively screwed the current external balance between some armies, despite the whole point of taxing subfactions was to balance armies internally. The costs for the subfactions have to be significant and not just ~50 points. I doubt any Bonereaper player will look away from Petrifix if it only costed ~50 points more than the other ones.

Games Workshop Product Developer. He often showcases newly released armies live on twitch.tv too. If that guy gave it a nod, I'm all in on that. Out of curiousity, how do you know? Did you attend? I'd love to somehow reference him giving it an okay, because quite a few who I've shared this trick with is still very much on the fence about it.

I don't think house rules is ever the answer, unless something is very clearly broken and you are in a waiting period for GW to FAQ an army, like with Slaanesh. You will risk alienating players since their army will perform differently from tournament to tournament, since TOs' house rules most certainly will be different. Even in casual games we don't play with house rules, since many of us play across different groups.

Tyrants of Blood is certainly a thing that I didnt take into account and is very real. Sisters doesnt seem to be used that often and Yhetees and Bonegrinder is just grasping at straws. Nobody uses those. Locus of Diversion is irrelevant. If you sit outside of 3” of a Keeper, it doesnt matter if you fight at the end of the combat phase, since the Keeper cant pile in at all due to being outside of 3”, hence not in combat. So you will be attacking the Keeper first, obviously assuming you didnt put it into combat with some other unit, but even then you could potentially place the MK so he has to pile away from it.

Great idea in theory, but pretty much impossible to implement in pratice. As mentioned in previous posts, subfactions arent equal across armies at all. Some armies are forced into a subfaction and other armies can opt out of a subfaction and is arguably better off due to not being forced into a terrible command trait and artefact. This means you cant just slap on a point tax and reduce points for models since the armies that arent forced into subfactions will suddenly be way better off. You would have to redo every army and how subfactions function. If you really want to tax popular choices, I think a tax on malign sorcery artefacts is just as needed.

Yeah in cases like this I would love if they would come out and say "green light, go ahead, its intended" or FAQ it right away. Right now it feels a little awful to pull off the trick in casual games. Right now you can effectively ignore the whole "activation wars" since nobody can attack you before you pile in and attack them (due to being outside of 3"), but you also have the potential to leapfrog 18" across multiple screens with your Maw Krusha during the retreat move and then destroy that juicy Kairos/Lord of Change/Whatever important character is sitting comfortably behind screens. Do keep in mind the Maw Krusha base is huge, so even with 18" your opponent still needs to leave some massive room.

It really gives Ironjawz a huge edge in the activation wars. Who cares if the enemy unit fights first or your unit fights last if the opponent's unit isn't in combat before you get to activate and pile in. It is basically a free doppelganger's cloak. I'm personally not using it in casual games unless he's playing a rather competitive and nasty list.

So you dont find a huge dragon perching on a lamppost realistic?

Mighty Destroyers says you "must attempt to charge". It is most definitely a charge move. I'm sure GW didn't think about adding rules that broke the normal pace of hero phase - movement - shooting - charge etc. when they wrote the rules for piling in, but they could have FAQ'd Mighty Destroyers to simply state something along the lines of a unit charging with Mighty Destroyers can't retreat. Or they could have FAQ'd the retreat rules to exclude fighting/piling in, instead of just shooting and charging.

It must be some huge cookie box to fit all the units. 😁 I went ahead and bought this from IKEA at around 25 USD - Significantly less than those from Magna Rack etc. It is made of metal and it got sliders with cork on - I decided to peel the cork off (gave me more stuff for my bases!) and the dudes fit right on. If you remove the bottom 2 sliders, a Maw Krusha can easily fit in there together with other characters/Gore Gruntas and then Ardboyz can fit in the two top rooms. I'm considering drilling two holes in the top and fit some kind of handle.

There is an Ironjawz specific thread. I think this thread lends itself towards Big Waagh talk where both factions are combined. Pure Ironjawz is very much alive and offers something different that Big Waagh can't.

But you can't just look at a warscroll in a vacuum. You have to take into consideration how it actually plays on the table. Anything else seems meaningless to me. My Weirdnob isn't on the table to challenge Nagash's magic, he's there to sit miles behind and teleport something wholly within 24". He can comfortably sit way out of unbinding range yet still teleport stuff half way across the table. Rolling a 4 on two dice if you have tapped into the BW points and taken the +1 artefact doesn't seem unreliable to me. I'll admit I haven't fought the Bonereapers and nobody at my local plays Plague Monks (they don't want to be *that guy*) so I'm a little biased towards the Wurrgog and haven't found him that necessary for clearing horde units. Most other stuff we can straight up kill in a close combat. I'm not debating if Mighty Destroyers is good. It is frankly batshit crazy and feels on the verge of being broken whenever I suddenly cover a lot of ground with my Maw Krusha and get into a spot my opponent didn't expect because I had played defensive previously. I'm genuine curious how you manage to pull the MD skip trick off, because you make it sound rather reliable and easy. From my experience it is very rare the oppotunity presents itself. It is usually just if I destroy something in my turn and I get the double turn, else it is rare my unit is stranded and left alone between 12" and 3" from an enemy unit for an entire turn.

So because I can't make a magic heavy KO list the new tome is bad? Orruk Warclans changed Ironjawz big time (I don't play Bonesplitterz so can't really comment here) and made it a very viable and real army without having to rely on a single round where everyone had 10+ attacks due to Waagh stacking. I'll agree the different clans aren't super interesting, but that is largely due to how good Ethereal Amulet is. For me this ruins anything that locks me into picking a certain artefact or trait for my general. This isn't related to Ironjawz, but rather how GW decides to design their chambers/hosts/clans in every tome. I realize there must be a price to pay for getting additional bonuses, but I really wish they would redo Malign Socery artefacts, because a couple of them are simply way too strong and makes for some really poor matchups. I don't think many enjoy fighting a monster with a 3+ unrendable save when you can just spend a CP and reroll 1s. Some monters even get full reroll saves. If the clan didn't lock my general, it would be very real - Deciding between -1 hit in first round plus a super interesting CA that lets me charge in the enemys charge phase vs. getting a free, non interruptable Hand of Gork spell off vs. being able to reroll charges and have Warchanters buff the entire army rather than a couple of select units. The book gave Ironjawz so many new tools to play around with. Even with a limited amount of warscrolls, the army plays very differently depending on what units you field. This is much different than most other armies, that largely play the same even if you switch almost all the warscrolls for something else. There is no shooting in Ironjawz, but that doesn't mean it's bad. I think it's OK the different factions are actually different and not just reskinned. You can certainly go magic heavy with Wrath of Gork and tons of MSU Ardboyz units etc., or play Big Waagh and get access to their casters and build them for magic. You can make a Wurrgog Prophet +4 casting wizard with 2+ spells a turn, which includes his rather awesome warscroll spell plus a fight-last spell from the BS spell lore. Could the Orruk Warclans tome be better? Sure, but couldn't every single tome? I had personally hoped Big Waagh would incentivize mixing Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz units more, but due to keywords IMO it is a matter of picking largely an Ironjawz army (from an IJ perspective) with a couple of Bonesplitterz support heroes sprinkled in. Not related to above, but I find it rather amusing to look through the different replies in this thread and see how differently people look at the armies/tomes. It is pretty interesting to read the people's different take on things.

But now you are ignoring key mechanics of fly. You are measuing vertical distance and taking into account that the terrain is there, both of which the core rules specially state you ignore when making a move.

I just don't understand that you call Hand of Gork "random", but you reliably get to charge units in your hero phase? If you really need the teleport to go off, you can tap D6 into the BW points. That makes it rather reliable in my eyes. Especially if you already run with another artefact that gives +1. I usually run Green Visions however since I need the CPs for the Waagh Banner Orruk Warboss. The 3D6 beat can't be used with the "MD hero phase charge"-trick, since it is used in the charge phase. Do you purposely move your pigs/MK within 12" but skip a round of battle by not charging in? Just sitting behind another of your units? I don't see how you reliably can pull the trick off unless you leave units stranded. I'm not trying to convince you, I just don't get the arguement for why he's bad. 😉 Sure he's a 1 cast wizard, but I don't need more than the threat of the Hand of Gork spell or Mystic Shield either way. In my games he easily pays for himself since he makes the enemy waste more pts. zoning out the table.

From my experience our mobility is great but it only gets you so far. Being able to threaten their backline is so good. I have had multiple games where my opponent literally wastes easily over 200 pts in chaff to zone a potential teleport, meanwhile my entire army moves forward and is doing work. Also makes it much easier for the pigs or cabbage to do work since you essentially remove a couple of screens. I dont see myself ever playing without one, just to mess with deployment and movement throughout the entire game. I wouldnt call him garbage, and I wouldnt classify the teleport as a non-impact spell. It can easily be game deciding. But hey, if it works for you!

At my local the meta started out rather casual, people brought all kind of dumb ****** for fun and giggles. However people got tired of losing eventually and started to look for how to improve their lists. Its almost inevitable that lists eventually start to get towards the more competitive end. As much as I like to throw dice and have a laugh, who doesnt want to win?

It is in the designers commentary for Orruk Warclans. It doesnt “unlock” the ability, it gives you 1 use with Brutish Cunning and another if you have an Ironfist.

Ordered a bundle of "30 men combat" 32mm trays based on the reviews. I'm excited to try them out

As per core rules, units with the keyword "Fly" ignore terrain and other models whenever a move is made: A charge move is considered a move: So if Nagash is 9" from the Clan Rats and he rolls a 9" charge, he will be in base contact despite the wall, since you ignore this terrain piece. Now the actual positioning on the table is kind of iffy, and I would likely just show it clearly to your opponent, and then move Nagash a bit to the side as to not risk harming your model. As for your other question, yes Nagash could land ontop of a house, tower, forest or whatever even if the base can't actually stand due to the spot being too tiny or uneven or whatever. I'm not certain about 40k but I believe they have a "wobbly model" rule where a model can't be there if it can't stick. In AOS the designers have explained this in an FAQ where you just mark it for your opponent. Like if you have a tower that is 10" tall, you can have models climb it 4" at a time no problem.

I would agree with pretty much all of your list, but knock Hedonites of Slaanesh and Ossiarch Bonereapers out of "Great". Hedonites of Slaanesh got quite a horrible internal balance considering the whole depravity system really forces you to go all out on heroes, and Keepers of Secrets are miles ahead of the other heroes (The exalted chariot is quite nice, though due to worse locus/no excess of violence, likely worse than KoS). This quite often leads to lists with multiple Keepers and MSU battleline. I don't have as much experience with Ossiarch Bonereapers, but they seem to be somewhat in the same boat, where you sort of have to go Petrifix, and every list I see fields loads of Mortek Guard where it revolves around keeping them alive/buffing them to near unkillable. So even if both armies got top tier builds, they feel very monotone and very much the same.

What good S2D rules were "suddenly stomped"? You could predict pretty much all of them quite easily. And many of them were good changes.