ChaosUndivided

Hmm blessings? 🤔 Papa Nurgle is definitely an option, tho Khorne also has blood blessing. Both could use a battletome update too, granted Nurgle's is much older. Nurgle never did get a endless spells or invocations either. Where as Slaanesh and Tzeentch are not as much into prayers. The generic chaos symbol definitely reads S2D and more specifically cultist which leads me to think this is just teasing Warcry as they mentioned the second warband swears oaths to all the ruinous powers seeking their blessings. It does specifically say mortal realms so im excited to find out!

I mean sure but the state cultist are in it would be better if they just remained Warcry specific then ham fisting them into an already precarious faction and trying to make them a core part of said faction. If broken realms and whitedwarf are any indication of the direction the rules writing is headed it appears these guys are intended to be a consequential part of S2D and are now muddying the waters in a way that is changing the scope of the faction itself. So its worth mentioning.

To explain myself a bit here, because i may be taken in a way not intended. I agree with there is room for interesting rules writing for the cultist which can make them impactful unit choices and i love your idea @Neverchosen. The problem i see it that there is too many of them now and its hard to imagine there will ever be a day where it wont be one or two cultist are the only good choice and the rest become redundant or a flat out worst option. There are already many units in the game that fall into this territory, however, with there being so many options for the cultist it lends itself to confusion and the potential buyers remorse for newer players unaware of all the various rules involved. Im with you @Scurvydog i would rather see updates to existing models regardless of faction than new stuff that doesnt really have a strong place within AoS, in that we really didnt need yet another cultist unit. Initially i was banking on the spider guys facing off against a nonchaos faction as i think that would better serve AoS on the whole. I really don't have my heart set on new marauders, and i especially dont expect them to remain as is, @Joseph Mackay. Its been debated in other threads previously that marauders overall need a change. I made the statement more because i think the simplicity of a single unit with multiple options is a better design choice than a dozen various cultist with lil to no usefulness that couldn't be done by a single marauder warscroll. Besides the various base sizes and weapon attacks makes the cultist very clunky to play in AoS proper. I remember a time awhile back when there was a huge hype train for Darkoath units joining the S2D roster and eventually all we got was an underworlds warband. To this day i still believe that introducing a darkoath subfaction which replaced marauders/horsemen and possibly a box of spear chucking ranged units would have been the better path to go than this cultist road we're on now. I guess time will tell, and the door isn't shut on that Darkoath expansion by any means.

Honestly, at this point i think i would prefer all the chaos cultist where jettisoned from AoS and we just got updated marauder sculpts.

I agree @Scurvydog S2D is a mess right now and the cultist seem ham fisted into it. But GW seems intent on somehow making these cultist some core part of S2D, which could mean the generic marauders get axed. If they do go this route i sure hope they move madauders abilities to the warriors and knights (+1 rend on war and run + charge on knight), and then somehow streamline the cultist warscrolls and give them each more useful specialization. As they stand now most are pretty much unplayable even at low point cost, uts worth adding that this is mostly cuz marauders are so much better for slightly more. This new warband is definitely Khorne'ish, Slaughterborn was a battalion in their battletome and they made a point of mentioning Blood, as well as being painted red, but he lacks any identifiable iconography like marauders who can worship any of the gods. They also hint at them swearing oaths to any/all the gods in article. They sure seem like a marauder and not exactly a reaver but jury is still out.

The Slaughterborn Warcry guy would make an awesome replacement for marauders but he sure looks like he's on a 32mm base which doesn't bode well. Even assuming they are a marauder replacement going from 25mm to 32mm base is huge nerf. It seems very unlikely due to all the previous cultist being on various size bases and odd model count that this one will be different. Which is frustrating because it leaves marauders with lil to no design space left. So either they look almost identical to this guy but are not this warband or they are squatted.

@yukishiro1 yeah your argument was totally predictable, of course there is janky outliers. There is like any number of counter points that can be made, most players dont really play hyper skewed list outside tournaments, point changes are due, meta shifts, smart deployment can still minimize the impact. I dunno dude i guess if all you care about is this extreme edge of play go on keep complaining.

If you're getting deleted top of turn 1 your just a bad player. Its very easy to ask things like how far can that guy move and shoot? Or position your units in a way that makes teleports ineffective. How badly do you need to cast mystic shield before someone punches you? Im not the most savvy expert on every faction but i play several and not one of them relies on buffing before my opponent hits me to stay alive and in the game.

@Domize im not sure that sorcerer lord on manticore is gonna hold up in a fist fight even with flaming weapons. With no ward save of any type he will degrade fast especially if shooting is on the table, he will basically be a free point for killing a monster for your opponent. One interesting thing about him is that other tzeentch wizards can learn/cast his warscroll spell. @ArkanautDadmiral im not an expert on tzeentch, but i know S2D well enuff and just built 2500 points of tzeentch models while pouring over their book for past month. There is definitely some combos between the 2 factions. Obviously Archaon being able to proc slayer of kings with destiny dice + kairos is there but i dont think your friends will love it. One interesting choice is the sorcerer lord on foot cuz he is a cheap mortal spellcaster which tzeentch kinda lacks. The mortal spell lore is full of useful stuff, personally i like glimpse the future best, but arcane suggestions and shield of fate have their uses. With that said oracular visions only works on S2D putting the sorcerer at a permanent 3up save unless you take other S2D stuff. From what i gather the daemon prince with axe is a good choice as a beat stick. The issue with say chaos warriors is they could be a good choice if buffed properly with right spells, they could be kinda killy and stay alive, however, there is already things like pink horrors who are just better tar pits who dont need support freeing up your spell casters to just deal damage rather than buff. This seems to be the issue with taking S2D in tzeentch, when it comes down to it they are not very efficient points wise and tzeentch almost needs to play tzeentch in order to make the most of fate points and their playstyle. In a casual scene there is definitely the opportunity to mix and match tho. I would take a good look at the buffs the spell lores have in comparison to the S2D unit you want to use. I think the magister on disc has been one of those on the fence type units. Hes ok for the points but when compared to other options he kinda falls short. Kairos has a better version of his spell, however, being able to pin 2 units with a spawn is nice. Then there is the auto includes, blue scribes, and herald on foot, which seems to appear in any competitive list. This starts to cut into how many points you got left to play with particularly if your running archaon + kairos or kairos + lord of change already, often this means something like magister gets left out, not cuz he is bad, just not essential.

I really don't like the summoning mechanics it just inflates the cost of army and requires more storage space. I wish all armies with summoning (yes im mostly talking about chaos ones) had something along the lines of the Khorne Bloodtithe Table where you can spend the points on abilities or buffs instead of units.

Your right about the battle tactic and the manticore. I like to just kite around with him and stay outta trouble but sometimes you gotta commit to an objective and of course there is shooting and magic which can pick him off. The same can be said about the warrior lord on foot which is a lot more squishy which is why i was considering the idea of swapping artifacts around. I also was running warlord + hunters and your right about drops. Most people i play always go 2 drop, which sure, its doable in S2D especially with Arc but its one of those things where you either commit to low drop or forget about it and take your chances. Everyone i played chose to go first top of turn 1 which didnt really work out in any of their favor as it just put stuff in striking range of buffed Arc but i think they where a bit scared of what i might be able to do (14 fly + reroll charge) and wanted to cast some buffs and score whatever points they could. In reality if your gonna go first vs Arc at least have the ability to delete a buffer. I got a slaughterbrute and warshrine and love them both. Before i got Arc my list usually had them + manticore, it wasnt gonna win a tournament but a lot of fun. The shrine actually has same buff as the foot sorc with reroll hits and wounds with a lot of versatility otherwise, i would strongly recommend. With all the cultist you have i would want to add anything to help with battleshock, maybe that myrmidon guy from warcry or the old darkoath heroes? Edit: ah i see you got host of everchosen which negates battleshock.

@oggurt_da_bog_zombie i agree, if you're running Archaon in a S2D army both the warrior chaos lord and sorcerer are a must. Im surprised the combo doesnt come up more often in mono god armies running Archaon. I played a local tournament not long ago and brought Archaon + Chaos Lord + Sorc Lord + Sorc on Manticore and it wrecked, every opponent would have been tabled if it went 5 rounds, 2 of the 3 were almost leveled by end of turn 2, but due to time constrains none made it past that. Out of the 3 games i played, i maybe teleported the chaos lord once. The reality was that i just avoided combat with him and he moved + ran if need be every turn. Not a single opponent even tried to kill him wich was shocking, either they dumped everything they had into Arc or just played objectives and Arc pretty much just deleted any threats to the Lord. The Sorc on Manticore had the amulet of destiny and it was a waste. That guy aint really for fist fighting with pr without the amulet. With Arc on table its hard for people to commit to trying to take out this guy unless you deliberately put him in harms way otherwise he just flys around casting his warscroll spell on hordes, granting +1 to someone, and picking of small weak stuff. I actually feel like this guy could benefit more from the tome, which btw, the teleport spell can be cast by someone else on the foot Lord. Even with the Manticore the regular foot Sorc is still a must for his warscroll spell and they work well together as buff bots.

I got a 1k S2D list that is designed well for new players as it is fairly cheap to build and only includes staple models. Its 1 start collecting box, an extra unit of knights (which buying 2 start collecting is not a bad idea), and 2 other heroes. Its Ravagers Legion so its not a bad idea to pick up some cultist (if you have the starter box for warcry your golden). But honestly you dont need to summon stuff to win. Everything is marked Tzeentch mainly cuz its a powerful mark but also this makes it simple when keeping marked units in range of correct marked hero, as well as give another layer of spell protection around current general. The Ravagers allow all heroes to take a command trait which works well here giving the Karkadrak further melee protection making him an easy 2 up save, rerolling 1s, with 4+ spell ignore, a 5+ ward vs mortals, and a -1 to hit in combat, rerolling all to hit and to wounds from sorcerer spell, and fighting twice each combat from chaos lord command ability, this is crazy on a 1k game to stack so many buffs. The Chaos Lord on foot has amulet of destiny so he can jump in and fight too, and trait which allows him to modify his Eye of the Gods roll, so you can more easily summon some deamons or turn into a deamon prince. Then the wizard gets bolstered by hate, beefing him up vs shooting. I gave him call to glory spell but most times your gonna want to go with his warscroll spell. You can mix up the command traits, artifact, spell, with those in the ghb for variety with this list but its a great start to larger army, and ez to pilot/learn. Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness - Damned Legion: Ravagers LEADERS Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (225)* - General - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch - Ravagers Command Trait: Master of Deception Chaos Lord (120)* - Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch - Ravagers Command Trait: Favoured of the Pantheon Chaos Sorcerer Lord (115)* - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch - Ravagers Command Trait: Bolstered by Hate - Spell: Call to Glory UNITS 10 x Chaos Warriors (200)* - Hand Weapon & Shield - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch 5 x Chaos Knights (170)* - Ensorcelled Weapons - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch 5 x Chaos Knights (170)* - Ensorcelled Weapons - Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch CORE BATTALIONS *Battle Regiment TOTAL: 1000/1000 WOUNDS: 71

The Chaos Lord on foot has a command ability that allows arcaon to fight twice. This is also why you give him arcane tome and teleport so he can remain in range. On the other hand the Sorcerer Lord has an undeniable +1 save ability and a spell that rereolls all hits and wound, wich is nice on slayer of kings in particular but awesome overall. In a S2D list with Archaon im trying to bring both but i prefer the lord on foot, altho wasting an artifact on him sux.

Thanks guys. I didnt notice kiaros could cast others spells thats huge. I only have one chicken and i think i wanna try kiaros out so not really interested in guild of summoners tho. Right now im working on pyrophane list with kiaros, blue scribes, herald on foot, curseling, ogeroid, and a fatemaster with 2x20 acolytes, pink horrors with split, and a spell portal. I wanna try some magic shenanigans with kiaros casting the other heroes spells with master of magic. Gonna use the spellportal to unload turn one and try to crank out some fatepoints early then unload with buffed up acolyte bolts before they shatter. If i got to im gonna use a fate dice or two to keep them from running. I wanted to try using lifeswarm to bring back some acolytes or keep kiaros/ogeroid alive but i would have to drop a hero or something to fit it in and i dont think i want to.

I guess i dont understand what to do about battleshock. All the mortals are a 5+ save with 5 bravery like everything shatters. I got 10 pinks and 20 blue/brims but their dmg output sux plus they lost some abilities. The ghb command to avoid battleshock can only be used once a round and then there is a real lack of immunity elsewhere unless you rely on fate dice. Also tzeentch cast a lot of spells but their not really nukes, seems like you have to focus fire to hurt anything big. The lord of change and kiaros are so close in points is a lil confusing. On one hand LoC can take trait and artifact and his warscroll spells seems better? On other hand kairos cast an extra spell and his once per game ability is nice to have. Is one preferred over the other or is it a toss up depending on list? I find a lot of list i made that 15 points came in handy elsewhere.

I have been sitting on a tzeentch army for awhile now, the models are assembled, but i have yet to play an actual game with it. I own archaon and a LoC/Kiaros but i don't want to bring arch to a friendly game and agreed to leave archaon at home, however, i still want to play competitively, or at least not get steam rolled so im kinda at a loss on how to make a list. For units i got lots of tzangors on disc and foot, a lot of kiaric acolytes, and horrors, at least 2 full units or more of each. I dont have all the heroes but can proxy them. I want yo stick to strictly DoT units, any suggestions?

I feel cultist are a lot like underworld warbands where they're not really for aos even if rules exist. The rules are there to entice buyers who are on the fence and give them extra incentive to buy, or at the very least try the other game. With the most recent white dwarf update the cultist make more sense if you just want a cheap unit to fill out you're battleline, as if S2D didn't already have enuff battleline units. Otherwise the update actually does more for mono god armies who can now more effectively use them but this still begs the question, for what? GW seems intent on making these units a core part of S2D tho, which makes me wonder if they may receive future waracroll rewrites giving them an actual usefulness.

No not really, this is hyperbole, and if you want to play that game every mid-tier unit across all armies is as well.

This isn't the first, or will it be the last, time this very discussion has taken place in these forums. @MrRipper707 you're just beating a dead horse at thia point. A lot of people agree the army doesn't feel like the fluff and several valid points have already been made that seem to be ignored. The marauders abilities should be moved to warriors/knights. This fixes a lot of the verisimilitude issues when it comes to who has made it further on their path to glory. Other factions i.e. Khorne, as well as many others have this very same problem where the lore doesn't match gameplay. This is not so ez to fix as it could throw the entire balance of game out and can really only be addressed a bit here and there at a time, if that is even GWs goal. Its well known that some rules are really cool but make for bad game experience while other rules don't feel as thematic but make for better balance, a lot like the recent battalion changes. Lastly, warriors and knights are not unstoppable killing machines, this seems to ne a head cannon issue more than game cannon. In gameplay they are fighting undead creatures, rampaging monsters, and gods. To me it makes sense where they fit into the meta, they can hold their own vs otherworldly beings and not die as soon as something looks their way, thats gotta be worth something.

What are you rhe rumor police? Do you have to refute every valid point with unsubstantiated claims to keep this echochamber from caving in?

The chaos chosen for 40k and fantasy are different sculpts its not like the same box of models makes either. Now look at the icon/totem in the rumor engine it doesnt have wires or tubes connected to it as the 40k does - its made of bones and rope like fantasy does.

@Clan's Cynic i would tend to agree with you but have you looked at the Chaos Chosen banner bearer? And they are finecast too...

I really hope we get a human Cities warband. The paladin model like the one from cursed city would be right at home in a underworlds warband. That rumor engine reminds me a lot of the totem in the chaos chosen unit, which could use an update like this.

Ok so spend 2 of their fate dice... Its still not free and there gonna need 2 of the higher dice in their pool.