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Lucky Snake Eyes

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Posts posted by Lucky Snake Eyes

  1. 3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

    I'm very hesitant about posting in this thread but the level of generalisation is just too high to not push back against. So I have a few questions for those who think that HoS summoning is too easy or overpowered.

    What is it about the summoning that is overpowered

    The units that are being summonable?

    The power of the models being summoned?

    That somehow HoS summoning gives them an unfair advantage at winning the game?

    That the HoS is being rewarded for doing what they would not do normally? Or behaviour that is counter intuitive to the narrative?

    That it feels bad to kill a Keeper of Secrets and see a new one come on the board?

    For example. People have stated the swingy nature of Depravity generation as a bug and therefore display it as a weakness in the design. But, if you consider it a feature of the narrative and see that it works as intended then it is a build issue that the HoS player must work with, meaning they can't rely on Depravity generation to cover gaps in their build. 

    If people really want to discuss Slaanesh summoning be prepared to answer a lot of questions about how you and your meta approach AoS not just attitude but actual strategic demeanour, otherwise there is no common ground for understanding and its a bunch of nerds yelling at each other.


    It's more or less a quality + quantity issue from my understanding. 

    For example LoN can keep recycling any unit with summoning, most summonable units have sub par stat lines that are adjusted by the fact their models can come back. Plus complete unit res can only happen from graveyards near the general.

    Now I can't speak for summoning restrictions on khorne or seraphon, all i know is seraphon never cast spells to max points and khorne loses theirs once they spend them, but I've seen players of both armies just slap down summoned stuff anywhere on the table and that's huge despite their limited generation (you can only spam so many wizards as seraphon and MSU's aren't exactly in meta for khorne to abuse) 

    Slaanesh units, much like the rest of chaos who share the theme of summoning daemons and/or overgrown farm animals, have a summoning mechanic that's fluffy, in this case non lethal pain, and their units are decent enough to stand on their own (within the context of being backed by their allegiance) but are also summonable. Now unlike the other 3 god armies, slaanesh has no mortals aside from 1 unit and thus have basically their entire toolkit at their disposal for summoning. Now that's not normally an issue since the 3 other god armies have their own equivalents + mortals and competitive players will buy spare daemons anyways, BUT we run into the issue with how each army summons. 

    Like I said, MSU's are in short supply so khorne is starving for tithe, on the flipside if it where an MSU heavy meta we might be having this discussion about khorne but I digress. Tzeentch is all about that magic, and aside from LoN and slaanesh, I can't think of other armies that spam wizards unintentionally or not. So it's only a few matchups there that they can really pop off. Nurgle is probably the most consistent and certain builds can get you a late game GUO but by turn 3 it better be a hell of a gamechanger with where you summon him. Slaanesh, much like khorne and nurgle, use an unavoidable game mechanic to generate points, but unlike the others, slaanesh doesn't care how many units are on the table or anything like that, just that non lethal wounds happen. This is where some of the griping lies. Another complaint is the power per cost of units, while I feel the KoS is sitting where it should be at 360pts, the summoning cost is only 30 so even a mediocre to abysmal turn, say 2 KoS die but you get off a couple wounds with spells or whatever and you get your d3 host depravity, boom that's a turn 2 KoS to try to bounce you back after a terrible first turn. You snowball when you succeed and have a mediocre but still existent safety net when you fail. Meanwhile the other khorne and tzeentch are less reliable in summoning a quantity of daemons or a few powerful daemons and nurgles predictable generation leaves them with needing to decide on whether to spend points now or save for the turn 3 GUO.

    Now the argument is still true that skill and luck  will still turn a game around in your favor, that greater daemon the opponent just got because YOU played well can be offsetting mentally. You can also argue that it can be played around by zoning out heroes, but that's a potential 6 heroes to have zoned or killed by turn 2, not all armies have the tools for that level of hunting/swamping and a lot of the ones who can have to go all in on it. Yeah you'll yank the teeth out of a slaanesh army by killing the big heroes and zoning the little ones but your gonna be screwed when your alpha strike speed list goes into the next 4 rounds at a GT against skaven or some other popular list.

    I'd argue that from a gameplay perspective it's still a mechanic that can absolutely be played around and prepare for, but the psychological effect is clearly profound as this thread shows. Personally I'd welcome a change such as focusing more on the host specific depravity generators or making it easier to zone out the summoning, maybe only being able to summon from a wounded hero to add a bit of fluff, the daemons joining the party rather than popping up because the herald on the corner of the table who did nothing all game asked them to. or maybe restricting it to only the fane and epitomes? The daemons coming through the mirrors, yeah people would abuse epitomes but it helps with target priority, shoot the epitomes turn 1 and zone the fane.

    Sorry for the essay lol

  2. 6 minutes ago, CB42 said:

    This makes Slaanesh lists that are not built around summoning more viable as there's less opportunity cost. Yeah, maybe that 1 keeper / 1 epitome / 90 daemonettes with mortal wounds on 6s to wound battalion list isn't really viable right now because why not just take more heroes, but if the relative efficiency of heroes is reduced because of summoning cost nerfs, non-heroes are relatively more impactful to take in a Slaanesh list.

    Does make you wonder how lists that aren't built around summoning would perform in a competitive setting.

  3. 3 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

    Yes that is free,or a model as the arch regent that cost 200(before the nerf) and 240 now.

    Bring 200 points of gouls free,if it isnt free then for 240 points we have 200 points of gouls + a hero with stats of a  120 points hero and casting two spell

    So yes the sumon is free or per example with sumon integrated in the cost the arch regent would cost as 400 point and not only 240

    So still not free, but certainly discounted. But in cases like this you can try to play around the existence of those models by sniping them out with magic, shooting or a hail mary of a charge before the summoning/revival happens. That prevents the addition/recycling of models and can throw off an opponent that was banking on using the mechanic.

  4. 4 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

    Ok i said random numbers. I chequed data now.

    Before start with order,destruction etc that it is imposible to know if have or not free sumon we have the top 15.

    From those 15 we have 10 armys with free sumon ,2 armys with 0 sumon and 3 armys with access to sumons or revive models as stormcast,nighthaunt or idoneths.

    So the 67% have free sumon, the 20% have acess to revive models and only 13% havent free sumon neither revive models.

    So it sems the numbers that i said wasnt wrong. Of course on any of those armys as skaven the free sumon have little impact,but the point is that they have it.as stormcasts bring models back or idoneth bring tralls back.

    Only fyreslayers and dok in all the top 15 have 0 free models in form of free sumon or revive


    I got honestwargamers data for reference


    Is free really the right term to use when in some of these cases you're required to pay points for specific models to facilitate said summoning/revival? Skaven can only do it with a screaming bell on a 12, stormcast have to take the lord arcanum? (i'm bad with stormcast names they're all the same to me). It's a little different from the summoning in the form of an allegiance ability that cannot be avoided and is essentially "free" with the only limitation being how the game is played.

  5. 5 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

    Btw why did u skip my maths sowhing u how the kepeer was better and cheaper than per example mage avatar? Of course u know numbers wasnt on ur favour and tried to compare it to verminlords. And in my opinnion verminlords are the single most undercosted and totally unbalanced unit in all aos by far. Even worse than all slanesh fec. Nagash etc together. So every unit compared against them will be bad of course

    And nearly every model compared to the avatar will look good, you two are comparing the lowest hanging fruit of either side of the argument. Why not compare it to other greater daemons which also have to be balanced around their factions summoning mechanic?

  6. 1 minute ago, Kugane said:

    I think it'll definitely be some sort of Asian themed army, most likely instead. I for one look forward to it. It would be amazing if it's undead Cathay or Nippon haha

    And it would only have taken close to 3 decades to finally get a nippon army lol

    Still It'd be cool if GW met the fans in the middle and made it an asian pirate themed army for an official wraith fleet release. I love my western pirates but asian pirates would be a pretty cool and unique army. As long as i get my walking ship wrecks i'm happy lol.

  7. 7 hours ago, Lightbox said:

    Oh man... now I really want oriental vampires/liche's leading terracotta undead soldiers!!! That would be amazing.


    Personally I do hope they go oriental themed, would be something very different and super cool for death! Regular boring ol' skeletons would just feel too much like battletome legions of nagash 2: undead boogaloo

    This is sounding more and more like a chinese TK and I kinda love it. Terracotta, bone and jade constructs powered by the souls of the dead with skeleton fodder and some kind court of vampires, wights and liches with a vampire, wight or lich mortarch as "emperor".

    ...as much as i don't want them to bring back vlad, his one dream aside from being with his wife was to be an emperor...

    • Like 3

  8. Imma throw my hat in the ring with a super left field suggestion.

    It seems there's a lot of contention over the cultural inspiration for the teaser's... well everything.

    What if that's intentional? What if the necropolis is made from bone tithes from all the realms? That'd explain the mix of cultural signals as the necropolis would have influences from everywhere. 

    As for the mortarch (or whatever this guy is going to be) it's probably a new character, but Krell is a solid choice. But how about Count Noctilus? Hear me out here, the vampire coast expansion for total war warhammer 2 has popularized undead pirates again and it's been long enough since that hype train for GW to have had something in the works as a response to that. While he wasn't killed by ghal maraz itself, his ship was rammed by the heldenhammer which had a recreation of ghal maraz as a battering ram. 

    I know I'm reaching for straws here but since the free cities are getting a full book, this would be an opportunity to turn their "rival" from firestorm, the wraith fleet, into their own army.

    • Like 4

  9. For my slaanesh:

    - Shoot the heroes, you can go for spells but if an enrapturess and/or epitome are in range your gonna have some trouble getting off your damage spells short of running nagash himself

    - you don't need rend, but piling in first with high damage or high volume weapons dumpster 90% of our units due to poor saves and us no longer having as many hit debuffs as we used to

    - mind your positioning around our heroes, either go in with multiple units so only one gets locus, or tie them up with something expendable with single wound models while your damage dealers mess up our battleline


    For Legions of Nagash:

    - for magi heavy lists, kill the mortis engine and corpse carts to remove some of the +1's

    - snipe necros as they are a force multiplier

    - melee arkhan as his bones are brittle

    - for vampire heavy lists, swamp the heroes in chaff

    - counter skeleton spam with stuff like Hearthguard berserkers who can counter swarm and dumpster with the right support


    For Kharadron overlords:

    - we're deceptively vulnerable to shooting

    - Our boats have trash saves and are only propped up by a multitude of small heals

    - with the exception of endrinriggers and brokk, we can't stab worth ******

    -hit debuffs ruin our ships due to them having single shot cannons with 4+ to hit, we spend too much effort trying to buff our hit chances so killing off lord ordinator allies or our mhornar general makes our ships close to useless

    - be ready for the clown car, once we drop 80% of our army on one objective using a boat, just run fast units onto other objectives because 90% your cav will kill whatever we left on the other objectives and it will take too long for the rest of our army to turn and kill you while we're tied up putting lackluster shooting into your main troops


  10. I'm not an ogors player in any capacity, but I would love to see a more AoS rebranding of ogors that goes all in on the ogors obsession with eating. A "devouring Horde" battletome or something like that that umbrellas the existing ogor factions like gloomspite. The terrain piece could be a big cauldron or representation of the great maw and the endless spells could be representative of the everwinter or whatever it's called that follows the beastclaw raiders. I feel going all in on a theme like this could drum up hype and make them stand out more against other factions with equally crazy themes like fish aelves. Throw in the obligatory new plastic hero that every non AoS unique tome gets and it'll make for a decent sell, at least for the several players in my area still clinging to their ogors.

  11. So Personally I collect Hedonites, so I guess I can say that army is exactly 50/50? 

    My second army is legions of nagash... yeah literally just vampires for things that visibly have a gender and even then it'd just be the foot vampires (until we hopefully get new vamp units) that could get more varied sculpts since the coven throne are all female and blood knights are in heavy armour so it doesn't matter. Albeit I love the designs of the old Vlad and Isabella models from 8th ed fantasy and would love to see more vampires of both varieties follow similar design schemes. An old hag necro or witch would be neat tho since our sculpt options for those are limited to a single sculpt and a long dead fantasy character.

    i also recently started a small KO force, so I don't know if it's still cannon but I recall fantasy stated that dwarf birth rates where 75% male or something crazy like that? Regardless of whether that's cannon KO are all wearing heavy suits so any physical signs of gender would likely be hidden anyways.

    Most armies can realistically include female sculpts without causing a fuss anyways, and in many cases you wouldn't be able to tell the differences between men or women either due too armour or racial biology anyways.

    While I don't really care what direction GW takes with future sculpts I will be all for any sculpts that are good, because in the end that's what matters. I don't care if the next 50 sculpts shown off are all female as long as they're quality sculpts. 

    As for the minor point of racial representation, they all come grey just paint them how you want, they're your models after all. Who cares what the official paint scheme is? I usually don't follow them anyways.

    • Like 1

  12. Recently got into KO because the models are just so GOOD! Rules however are poorly thought out and pale in comparison to newer books (for example hedonites who are my bread and butter) I honestly feel all we need are just a few tweaks to make us viable again without having to long bomb a clown car full of endrinriggers. 

    1. Make the navigator able to do his things while embarked, he's the boa man, let him be on his boat!

    2. Split the admirals rules into two different warscrolls, he can't seem to decide whether he wants to foot slog or support the ships.

    3. Either make the main guns of the ships flat damage or keep the random damage but add a shoot twice rule (I'm thinking something similar to grinding advance for 40k leman russ tanks)

    4. As a tau player in 40k i feel some mechanic that could give more reliable rerolls or a +1 to hit will help offset our 4+ to hit and make us more viable without ordinators or escort wing.

    5. buff the ironclad to a 3+ save, so few models in it's price range have worse than a 3+ or 4+ with ward


    Some wishlisting would also include a ship with multiple main guns instead of transport capacity or an "open top" ship that lets the transported troops shoot and use abilities while riding.


    Regardless of all this I am enjoying the army and my local meta is lacking in shooting lists so they'll be a fun addition to my collection. I do enjoy the swingy nature of the army so if things don't get better for us I'll just use them casually and bust out the hedonites for tournaments.

    • Like 3

  13. 13 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

    Enoch you are misunderstanding,

    But I will first point out some misconceptions you are making about my position. I address the chaff role in my third paragraph.

    The comment about horde armies is an incorrect interpretation of what I said. I never said that they don't exist, that they aren't competitive, but your point belabours my own. They are viable but we only need to look at faction representation (available on The Honest Wargamer) sample the lists available for those factions from events and we find that true hordes of single models in the competitive realms are extremely rare. And, that fact has a distorting affect on what selections are worthwhile in faction books, and those distortions cause distortions and so on and so forth. The same is true of real range damage.

    This is all very well known stuff, its the basis of money ball, and why Liverpool and Manchester City from an organisational stand point leagues ahead of the rest of the Premier League. 

    @Overread Cost is an important factor, but its not the FIRST factor, basically its convincing a person looking for a car to drive, that a non-functional car has value as scrap. 

    Hordes are still playable and popular man, check out the 6Nations lists on honest wargamer (was recently looking at these because I heard some mad man brought KO) plenty of hordes of rats, reapers, skeletons, etc even some hearthguard blobbing (while not a traditional horde it is internally a horde by fyreslayers standards)

    • Like 1
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  14. 14 minutes ago, frostfire said:

    I honestly think that Nagash is just right in his position, or even a bit overcosted comparing to FEC and Skaven or even Fyreslayer who obviously tipped the balance since they came out .....

    Thanks to all the viable Deathlords and resurrecting ability, LoN become an interesting army with its own features. Simply demolishing the ability to bring back models and units may just demolish the fun to play them as well.

    Demolishes their usefulness as well, otherwise builds would go to favour meatier units that couldn't revive anyways (not that there are many options for that), thus making them a death reskin of a generic army. besides, with the exception of reapers, any amount of rend will drop our most common units like flies and even spamming dice will make enough die considering our usually abysmal saves, The revive mechanic is how we justify having such flimsy units.

    • Like 1

  15. 4 minutes ago, michu said:

    @Lucky Snake Eyes I think that Harkon's popularity has risen after Vampire Coast in the TW:W2.

    Yeah, but I feel the irons gone cold on that one and GW has missed the window to capitalize on it. Still wouldn't complain to see Harkon wheeling out old bess again and to throw walking boats at my opponents, but it seems unlikely at this point. Then again production time for GW is far from speedy so maybe they started a Vampire coast revival project after seeing the success of the VC dlc. Still you'd think that if that where the case they'd tease something by now just to say "hey we heard you like vampire pirates?". Besides our own Mortarch of night(betrayal, scumbaggery, failure) killed off harkon in the end times if I remember correctly. Would be cool to see Harkon or Vlad come back for a bit of revenge against Mannfred though.

  16. 13 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

    I really hope it is a new mortarch like Vlad, Harkon or Isabella. Someone very recognizable but not from an oop army. As much as I would like tomb kings back, I don't think it's going to happen yet despite the very Egyptian look of the temples.

    Harkon I'd doubt despite how badly I'd want him, he just isn't as popular as the others and would require gw to design an entire pirate themed army again (which I'd buy in a heartbeat.) Abhorash would be awesome, could even make Vordhai relevant again as the blood dragons would sooner follow their sire and patriarch or a crazed traitor. I'd even be down for the return of Ushoran for some proper FeC/LoN soup. Ushoran, Mortarch of Madness or Mortarch of Feasts sounds cool. Then again so does Abhorash, Mortarch of the Blade or Mortarch of the Hunt.

  17. 4 minutes ago, Mutton said:

    Blood Stalkers are dreadful, and I don't really know how anyone can defend them. A 5-stalker unit can (at max) do 5 wounds per shooting phase...and this assumes every single one of them hits and wounds their target. Statistically, they'll do 1-2 wounds per shooting phase. For 160 points. As I said, these would be terrible stats even at 100 points. They were clearly "balanced" during the time when GW was stamping down on shooting in general, and they desperately need an overhaul.

    Morathi doesn't need balancing in that way. Characters already have the disadvantage of not being able to use artifacts or command traits. In the current world of DoK, you would NEVER want Morathi as your general because she wouldn't get the Hagg Narr command trait (which is part of why temples need to be revamped and she needs to come down in points). Secondly, Blood Sisters aren't going to be considered op just because they're battleline. People use them as battleline already with Medusae. DoK players NEED more ways to play than just spamming Witch Elves, I think everyone will agree on that, and more options is not a bad thing.

    Blood stalkers should definitely get more attacks at the very least or maybe some poison special rule for mortal wound potential. I've got to disagree with you on morathi though, she's pricey for sure, but in a tournament setting with time constraints where you usually won't get past turn 3, she becomes an insane wall that can shut down the momentum of key units just by existing. Play her right and your opponents beat stick or big horde of whatever might as well not be on the table anymore once she gets into them on turn 2 or 3. I also feel heartrenders or lifetakers could use some adjusting to be more viable options but I'm not sure exactly what should be done with them.

  18. Just now, Double Misfire said:

    Shadow, inherited from Vlad?

    When Nighthaunt and 2.0 were first teased everyone had her down as the Mortarch of Grief, which would have been a great fit with a permadead Vlad.

    If only we where so lucky. But yeah I guess inheriting shadow would work. I guess that means abyss is also up for grabs if GW ever wants to do undead pirates again. Isabella as the mortarch of shadow could also be an opportunity to give soulblight their own standalone release instead of being a footnote in LoN.

    • Like 1

  19. Just now, Harpo2 said:

    What if Vlad came back as a Stormcast and Isabella came back as a Mortarch. That would be an interesting dynamic consider how in love the two were.

    I do wonder if the Stormvaults are going to be related in any way to prison escape that Malign Portents ended on since it sounds to be a similar idea, historical characters returning to the Mortal Realms after being freed.

    Vlad and Karl where broing it up a bit in the end times so it makes you wonder...

    What would Isabella's mortarch title be? 

  20. If it's the return of Vlad (or Isabella for that matter) I'd buy in a heartbeat. I know Vlad is super dead, but that didn't stop nagash from resurrecting him the first time during the end times. As I recall Isabella should be alive though since she should have the von carstein ring. 

    Also didn't one of the recent rumor engines look like a bone construct? What if Krell got turned into a Morghast hero? Now that's a model I'd pay to see!

    • Like 3

  21. Rework temples since hag nar or whatever it's called is the only one I ever see played.

    Bloodwracks should make stalkers battleline, I've seen this argued a lot and I agree with it.

    Cap horde sizes for wych aelves and no cap discount.

    Remove general restrictions on command abilities, slaughter queens on foot are useless otherwise.

    Price hike hags, because a 60pt model should not do the same stuff as support models twice it's price.

    Rework the avatar, they're a wet noodle until turn 3 so their an easy kill unless your opponent spams hags to puke out prayers.

    Rework Morathi, you have to start hurting her from turn 1 to hope to kill her in a 2-3hr tournament game, had too many situations where she stays back for two turns and then rushes up and ties up my skeletons or slaanesh heroes and makes stops any momentum they had for the rest of the game. She is the only reason I can still justify the existence of instant kill rules like slayer of kings or dark temptations. Remove the 3 wounds a turn rule and drop her price. Alternate take is to bump up the wound cap to 5 so she can't be killed outright first turn but can be killed within 3 turns reasonably.

  22. Been in the hobby for 5 years and never once played or purchased from a GW store, always went to local hobby shops to buy and gaming lounges and game cafes to play. It started mostly because the nearest GW is 35 minutes away by car and the nearest hobby shop that sells and has tables is a quick walk down the street. But at this point I actually get better prices at some of my local stores and the community around these cafes and shops is way more relaxed and supportive than the 2nd hand experience I've had watching games and friends try to play at GW stores. Don't get me wrong the employees at the GW near me are great but the players that frequent the place are not. And Nagash/Sigmar even Slaanesh forbid I try to take my teenage sister there. 

    Anyways as for the survey I was pro double turn, asked for resculpts on models that are old but still considered good to have like chosen or skryre acolytes, asked for some 40k stuff but this isn't the forum for that, and asked for the consolidation of stray factions like Ironweld, everchosen and 90% of aelves. i don't know if anyone would consider soulblight another like this considering their just an offhand extra page in LoN but a full release for them or properly mixing them into legion of blood would be nice to avoid having to make a vampire themed army as LoN but vampires or vampires without any of the niceties of LoN.

    • Like 1
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