Frowny

Something like Slaughter queen (or hag) on cauldron 9x shadow stalkers 30x witch elves /w swords or bucklers Seems like an interesting core. 3+ save screen to teleport in and block the midfield, then you can counterpunch with the super buffed witch elves after with all the buffs. If they get the double, and get into your witch elves you can probably still survive and then use the hero phase fight CP to clear them out and still hits a new target. The cauldron itself is still there and is itself quitr killy. And once your screen mostly crumples, the last model can go be annoying tping to objectives. Quite a few points but a lot of different utility

This is exactly what I don't want. A million tedious individual profiles. I never use them because they are so fiddly to field. Maybe just group them all together as 'thunderer assault weapons' 2 shots, 9 inch range, 3+/4+/-2/2dmg, can't be used in transports. Now they are very high power for armored targets and give good rend and benefit from buffs well but double down on short walk ranged so their is a clear difference of role.

Has that every stopped GW before? Look at poor Fyreslayers. or Nighthiant- they have 2 characters for every actual unit.You can make an entire army out of just specialty released primaris lieutenants. I think they do it because of the very favorable cost/profit ratio. Cheap to make, don't take up much factory time, easy to ship, huge markup on those little hero blisters. Obviously that's not a good reason from our perspective but from theirs it seems to.

I cast throne of vines quite often with her, and then used the buff to cast to cast many of the other spells. Still worried she may die too fast for her points but we'll see if she can get a ward somewhere else in the book and what her points are. I'm excited. At.minimum another chance to fix thei main problems with the book as a whole, which is the reliance on wildwoods while simulateously them being very finicky to summon

How are people feeling about cauldrons now? The always on avatars actually seems to make them pretty killy? Put them with some shadow stalkers for a 3+ save screen might be interesting.

But why can't it just actually be a monster? Like it looks like a monster. Seems like needless rule complication to me. These types of things usually create confusion with 'counts as doing x/counts as x'. For example at some point they will print setting that says 'whenever a monster uses a monsterous rampage' and then we will be left confused about whether it affects this guy that isn't a monster but counts as one for some purposes. seems silly.

I almost think you want them as the screen themselves. Make a wall 3 inches from them to shut off movement, then when they charge you, spend the cp and retreat 15 inches away, out of all charge range. Just making sure you always spend the cp for unleash to retreat. They are really really expensive per wound though so even d3 mw from a charging thing hurts

Note also that they can still pile in and keep their 3+ which is also definitely useful, especially with bigger units. I don't see any rules for extra reach or increased coherency so units of 6 are probably left to just the scythes.

The bow hunters seem terrible, but with those stat boosts, the sword or scythe hunters seem great. Base 3+ save allows the all important 2+ save stacking, and the extra all out defence i think is actually deceptively strong. At least currently, I use all out defence every single turn on something, usually monster with a 3+. Now i get 2-3 free uses of it per game per squad of hunters, which i probably want anyway. Excellent! Also note that it is not wholly within, and most commonly, could be issued to themselves.

@RorsThis is basically where I ended up. One challenge I can see with the army as a whole is how to keep your defenses up in their turn. -1 to be hit, and for harridans -1 to be wounded are great but its also only during your turn when you can already pick your engagements. Nothing is particularly strong defensively, even with the 5++ ability active. I think corner pinning charges will be key. Also, what do people hope to do if given turn 1? I do know that many battleplans with even 18 inch starts, it will be very hard to do much damage. 8 inch movement on most things leaves a 10 inch charge, and deepstrike charges for a 9+ are just as unreliable. Neither seems very likely to do much. Thus why I ended up with hexwraiths to either screen or move 24 and make a 15 inch long wall to maintain board presence. I'm not sure what else is available for a turn 1 attack- I think the deepstrike happens at start of movement phase, so you can't deepstrike and then cast close range spells, so it seems like board positioning is the best that can be done. Some allied direwolves as a big screen at least seem cheap and can keep up. This army really seems like it would want t2 for the chance at the double and targets within 8inch move charge range and 12 inch spell range.

Sure, but our wizards aren't that great and if you are casting arcane Bolt you aren't casting anything else. Spectral lure is great, as is our spell lore. The thing i like about bladegheists I'd that they are so reliable. You will always charge and they don't need setup to be great. I agree with others that reapers are where you want to be if you reinforce units. Dread blade harrow Guardian of souls Kruelghast 1x3 spirit hosts 2x5 hexwraiths 6x10 bladegheists Or something like that. (I haven't done the math) T1 your hexwraiths screen by being sideways and then if forced to take T1, advance 24 inches to pin the enemy, rest of the army moved to mid board. Hexwraiths die on their turn, but after that it should be a free-for-all in then midboard where army wide fly and retreat and charge and good independent troop quality should help carry the day More a flexible adapt as you go type build rather than a preplanned one. But army wide retreat and charge let's you do that.

Who says they have to be in a big groups? 9 groups of 10. Gets more charges that way anyway. as far as I know there is no limit on the number of battle line entries you can pick? That list is almost certainly not optimal. You almost certainly want a few more points in heroes or other elements but still, 30 MW per turn is strong, when it is on top of all the normal stuff you do. Free Gargant almost dead on average? yes please. I also like bladegheists because they are so independent but simultaneously do well with buffs. For example, with all-out-attack they outperform harridans against a 5+ or worse target, which is most targets. Conversely, you can't buff harridans at all since they already cap themselves out at +1, so if you really need to kill something, you are at the mercy of the dice. Their main downside of course is their cost /wound, which you can somewhat compensate for just by taking more (and not taking too many heroes) I think one of the traps of the book is actually the heroes. They are all interesting and improved, but you can spend a lot of points on heroes without getting enough bodies, especially since most units went up in cost, either slightly or a lot. I can imagine struggling really really hard into Nurgle, for example, as MW are pretty good against us, they have reasonable saves, and a boatload of wounds.

Bladegheists on their sub faction seem very very strong. As an extreme example, you could take about 90 of them. That's 30 mw on the charge, per turn, remembering that they can do so every turn. Also unlike harridans, they don't require support- they already have easy access to their own self buff by charging and can take advantage of all out attack which others can't. And starting with 1 rend means they aren't quite as reliant on charges as other models to get their kill on. But mostly, army wide mw in the charge is excellent. And even more, they are my favorite models- by far. And that definitely counts for something. I just wish they gave nighthaunt a monster, 2nd chariot or some more cavalry instead of so many different random heroes. There are more heroes than all other things out together. And then still 50% more heroes.

Something like a king, a turtle, lotaan and the little wizard + 30x2 thralls,10 thralls and 10 x 2 reavers would be quite good i think. Or you could do 2x20. And that's quite a lot of build diversity with several different units. Possibly in Dom Hein for the out of phase charge+attack again, which is a very very strong ability. I think thralls will be very very strong. Someone compared them to graveyard but that isnt fair- they can fight first consistently on command which is a bonkers good ability. I agree that eels don't seem great, but i think there is probably also play to a multil shark list as well, since they carry buffs so well. King, turtle, little wizard, 3x2 sharks and then a unit of thralls also seems good. Nice targets for all out defence and attack if needed and a ton of shooting. That gives you 32 shots at 3+/3+/-1 d3 damage. Nothing to joke about and let's you pick off targets before going for the t3 alpha.

Something like a king, a turtle, lotaan and the little wizard + 30x2 thralls,10 thralls and 10 x 2 reavers would be quite good i think. Or you could do 2x20. And that's quite a lot of build diversity with several different units. Possibly in Dom Hein for the out of phase charge+attack again, which is a very very strong ability. I agree that eels don't seem great, but i think there is probably also play to a multil shark list as well, since they carry buffs so well. King, turtle, little wizard, 3x2 sharks and then a unit of thralls also seems good. Nice targets for all out defence and attack if needed and a ton of shooting.

I see what you mean. What are people generally doing for battleline in living city? I think my damage dealers will be a big monster hero and maybe 2 units of folulminators. But then i still need 3 x battleline. Irondrakes have potential but then i need a dwarf general and can't put my useful command traits on the big general. Most other things just seem like crappy objective holders for the back line without much difference

Has anyone tried dark riders recently? They seem pretty versatile as screens and objective grabbers or pinning pieces. Just lots of units of 5 maybe 1 of 10. Is the assassin any good? At least he can be hard to kill if desired.

The biggest problem i see is battle line. Gluttons are just so awful with the new coherency rules. Most likely you want a FLOSH general but then for battleline, Stonehorn beast riders are just not as good as FLOSH and give up VP. Then I'm looking at a nonflosh general to get either dogs as battleline who don't accomplis much or an ogre general for ironguts, but then 3 units of ironguts is a lot of points Maybe i should look at mornfangs again.

I really really like the look of that gorgers list. 3d6 charges with a reroll is a lot of potential. I still think you want a FLoSH in there,l, to have a second real threat. And maybe a wizard because mystic shield is so good. Something like. - Army Faction: Ogor Mawtribes - Subfaction: Bloodgullet LEADERS Butcher (135) Frostlord on Stonehorn (430) -artifact splatter cleaver - metalcruncher Icebrow Hunter (125) - General - Command Traits: ‘Nice Drop of the Red Stuff!’ Kragnos (720) BATTLELINE 2 x Frost Sabres (55) 2 x Frost Sabres (55) 2 x Frost Sabres (55) OTHER 1 x Gorgers (80) 1 x Gorgers (80) 1 x Gorgers (80) 1 x Gorgers (80) 20 x Gnoblars (120) TOTAL POINTS: 2015/2000

I think people are underestimating how good the disease points will be. If you can put a single one on a unit T1, it will never leave, and you will get 5 turns with it for an average of 5 wounds. Just from that. Little heroes will be on deaths door or dead just from that, and small units at half strength. True it takes a while bit that's what the 5+ ward is for. It seems pretty easy to get to 7 disease rolling on a 3+for choice units too which is quite a bit of damage. Just from the mortals. For comparison, the ogres charge rule will put out on average far less mortal wounds as an allegiance ability than does this one, yet is definitely solid. Also, i know ppl on here dislike how slow this tome made nurgle, but i think it's fitting. It really felt odd that they were faster than the other gods... Just not thematic at all. Like tanky slaanesh or slow sturdy elves or blunt hammer tzeentch without wizards. It may have been strong too, but this version is way way more thematically nurgle for me. I also think it will be reasonably strong, just in a different way. I think it will struggle against gargants with low burst DPS bit do quite well against the big guy + support lists (tzeentch archeon, Natash). Stacking 7 on one of them each turn seems pretty easy, and the disease will take out the support almost incidentally. There are also several excellent spells for totally neutering big targets. Cloying quagmire seems excellent and an auto take.

@Lord Krungharr with their shooting attack, you can use living cities fire and fade command ability to fade forward. With their base 10 movement, or coming on from deep strike you can guarantee a 3 inch charge either from your deployment zone or any flank. And they hit quite hard on the charge and are pretty sturdy for their points. @NauticalSoup i used to run the pistoleer and outrider build and it is pretty dead. It really needed the retreat and charge from the battalion to be useful. And the coherency stuff is rough for any bigger unit. They are also hurt by save stacking where rend 1 just isn't enough while not being able to really benefit from all out defence. And the list doesn't really use heroes or monsters. So all around took a huge hit in viability while also having the thing that made it unique removed.

Fulminators also seem excellent now in living cities. Still the shooting attack for the extra move, and they hit really quite hard, have a nice rend of 2 on the charge, and with a 3+ save, carry buffs quite well

Are people worries about bleeding VPs with the dragon heavy lists? They are solid but they aren't indestructible at only 9 wounds you will lose several. Some lists I'm seeing can easily.be giving up 5 VPs just from losing drake knights. That's enough to win the battle but lose the war.

What is the base size on the new drakes?

You could use the khorne juggernauts and removethe khorne bits (or greenstuff over them) to create some nice mechanical mounts. Would look good ridden by dwarves, I think. If you like the more elf aesthetic, I think they'd look fine just ridding the demigryphs themselves.