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Everything posted by Scurvydog

  1. All this is only a problem as petrifex. Take stalkers outside petrifex, compare them to a similar big guy unit for 200 points, kurnoth hunters. against 4+ saves Kurnoth with scythes dish out 7.2 damage and 1,5 mortal wound from stomping, so around 8-9 damage total. Stalkers in precision stance is 11.1 damage. So stalkers deal a bit more damage, they have 1 more move. In any of the other offensive stances they have a pitiful output of 5.9. If they choose reroll saves 4.4... Kurnoth hunters have 5 wounds each instead of 4. If they do not charge they can reroll saves too with no less damage output, only 1" pile in then, but 2" reach. In summary, anything but precision stance on Stalkers is grossly overcosted. If they did not have that, there would be 0 reason to ever take them. Precision stance AND the +1 save and possible +1 rend from Petrifex brings them over the top. Stalkers in any other legion and precision stance er balanced just fine for their points, if they did less damage, there would be no point to them next to even Morghasts for about the same points and 6.7 damage and 9" fly and either 5+ mortal wound save or 3d6 charges.
  2. Ah yes I forgot that for a second. Nope he does not really care all that much
  3. That or this is where the next realmslayer series picks up and Gotrekk absolutely spanking both gentlemen and sending them packing. Even in game, unless Archaon rolls double 6 to wound, Gotrekk would probably delete both of them of the table
  4. While the new fluff does paint an impressive picture of Katakros, Archaon has outmatched and outsmarted Sigmar and the pantheon of gods before. Katakros might be able to get somewhere, but probably not long by himself, he after all only commands a fraction of the armies of Shyish and Nagash, and if it was so "easy" to take the allpoints, it would or should have happened much sooner. Of course anything can happen, maybe some other factions finds opportunity in this conflict to tip the scales. Perhaps even if he was backed up by other Mortarchs. At least Nagash is the only God who has managed to really put a hard focus on his middle management team. In forbidden power Lady Olynder send the celestand prime packing to release Katakros in the first place and it sounds like he is more potent than she is. There is a short story in the battletome where Katakros and his retinue is engaged by a Lord of Change, which kills his attendants which mere annoys him that he has to engage personally and with 1 swing decapitates the greater demon, so he certainly has some power to back up that codpiece. Archaon is on another level entirely than most... I have a feeling something will throw a wrench in the entire Soulwars soon, as narratively Nagash has not really achived anything yet from all of this other than more terror and death, but the soul stealing culprits are still going about their business as usual. Maybe some angry green follows will shake up the status quo soon, with a great big godbeast ram...
  5. I have both played with and against them. I have a few 2000 point games with my own force now too. I will absolutely agree that they are in the absolute top tier of armies, maybe somewhere in the new top 5 even and rankings will depend on matchups. This only goes for Petrifex though, I think the army without that single legion would sit at a pretty happy middle ground, although then it would probably not be able to compete with the "top armies". Unfortunately all these top dogs create problems for many other armies, we have both some older books floating around, and some forces are clearly not on par with some other on a fundamental level. Now the problem with a new book is, should a new army be at the level of a pure Troggoth army? The game as a whole would probably be better if everyone were at that power level, and you could somehow get away with far more thematic lists, while still not being completely obliterated outside of a lot of luck against 50% of armies out there. My personal "fix" to not get everyone to hate playing my Reapers is to make a 3 loss petrifex rule for myself. Unless a lose 3 times in a row to someone, I will play another legion and try to keep the peace in the gaming group that way.
  6. How should they change then? 4 of them is 280, charging in they actually have the exact same damage output as 4 ironguts for 220 without counting the pistol. They also have more movement, more wounds per point, a tribe dedicated to them basically and also the everwinter allegiance ability to possibly deal mortal wounds in the hero phase. When not charging they do indeed fall down to around 70% of the output of 4 ironguts, but is that not how it should be? They are faster, more durable and got possible mortal wound output in the hero phase, is that not sort of balanced? I would not call them completely... gutted. Also the hand weapons and Gargant hacker is basically identical in output against a 4+ save, better or worse saves will improve and reduce the value of the weapon loadouts respectively. It is more a question if you want to reflect mortal wounds or get 2" reach, which should not be completely discarded for its importance.
  7. the sphinx is a 10 wound beasty for 100 pts, not really fighty but has a -2 bravery aura and in the hero phase you pick an enemy unit, hide a die and your opponent hides one with a number, reveal them, if they are not the same, the enemy strikes last until next hero phase. That is pretty good for 100 pts, it is super fast too. Varanguard circles is from the everchosen legion and the 7th circle you can choose gives varanguard +1 damage on the charge, they can also still choose to fight again once per battle built in their warscroll. On the charge, just by being in an army with archaon without any other buffs or even marks considered, that is around 2x15+ damage average vs 4+ saves, more or less obliterating whatever they ran into. In effect they can hurt as much on the charge as 2 mawkrushas or mangler squigs, for a 300 point unit.
  8. Broken? perhaps not, but just looking at the Everchosen I can see some tasty stuff in Varanguard of the 7th circle getting +1 damage on the charge and also fighting twice. Getting the mindstealer sphinx into the mix would not be a bad idea, is it forces the enemy to strike last until the next battleround. Archaon himself and a chaos lord to use fight again CP as well and we get a nasty elite list I think. Sorceror lords also hand out reroll saves as an ability and their spell is reroll to hit and wound... yea use that on archaon, fight twice, reroll everything. Support heroes do not really get better than that.
  9. Just from reading warscrolls everything seems pretty good, although many weapon options for the individual units seem poorly balanced against each other, usually always 1 setup outshines the other by far, and everything with the word "flail" looks super bad. The stars from what I think right now with this limited overview: Demon prince - wow this guy is crazy, add in marks and aura of chaos for more nastyness, straight up strike first no matter what on a 3+ save flying hero, wow. The real kicker is the command abilities, especially Khorne and Nurgle stand out to me. Khorne can completely shut down a whole bunch of things, this guy can protect a big part of the table from any deep strikers and many charges by himself with little issue. As nurgle the d3 mortal wounds when being hit on 6s is super nasty. Lord of Chaos - At first glance he is just a semi decent hero on foot, but the command ability allows a unit to fight again in the combat phase and he seems to be the only guy with this command. Take a moment to consider how important these types of command abilities are in the meta. Remember Archaon is mortal too... this lord can ask Archaon to try harder and fight again. Chaos warshrine - This is both a totem and priest, so I might expect to see even more goodies in the book for priests, but the base scroll alone looks good, it is rather fighty now and tough, gives 6++ saves and great buffs depending on marks, flat out reroll to hit or +1 save for example. Chaos warriors - Those 3+ mortek guard with reroll saves you love? now see these guys of nurgle in 20 man blobs backed with warshrines. they now reroll saves when 10 or more and not just 1s. Give them +1 save. Maybe use a demon prince to give them that sweet d3 mortal wounds when hit on 6s and dare your opponent to even try killing them. Other good stuff as well, marauders looking like a super decent meatshield. Knights all around fine benefitting from a great command ability from the mounted lords (+1 hit and reroll charge).
  10. I am curious of what you find fun to play against? Slaanesh who wipes you out before you can strike? DoK with 10 pt battleline with 5++ rerolling save and 4 attacks? Morathi who cannot take more than 3 wounds per turn? Lords of the lodge fyreslayers striking first and 2 times with hearthguards? Deepkin with all of the army striking first in turn 3? I really want to know what is "fun" and why can't OB be fun? Is it just the people you have fought only owning buckets of Mortek Guards making a wall? The army can make many builds, and comparing it to the variety found in many other tomes, they are doing quite well with multiple units and could field both cavalry and monster armies, a Nagash list or Arkhan with his explosive friends. I also own Ironjawz and Nighthaunt and they are far more one dimensional, either having only 3 units to choose from in total or every single thing being a 1 wound ghost with 4+ ethereal save.
  11. As I new player I can understand this but can't agree either, as this is basically the norm for every new tome to break some core rule. In fact besides how CP work, the reapers "break" far less than many other armies. The trademark of the top armies currently is to mess with the order things happen in phases, especially the combat phase, where you will see the strongest armies being able to dictate the flow, like fighting first no matter what you do. The Reapers do not do this and they do not limit YOUR gameplay and options in the same degree. People need to discard the thought that OB just get free CPs. They completely discard one mechanic for another. Their battleline litterally have no abilities at all besides these discipline triggered abilities, so GW has made this a different economy, it is not like any other army has 0 rules for their units and need CP to activate those. It needs to be understood their entire allegiance abilties are centered around this mechanic, the nexus and the discipline points is what this army is all about. Maybe as a new player you are not aware of all the allegiance abilties floating around, but many armies can summon completely new units to the tabe, force you to fight last no matter what in combat, teleport at will and so on and so on. GW made something new with the system, which is an economy that replaces something else, so it is a tradeoff too. Orruks for example in Big Waagh get both their Waagh points and CP as normal, but that is all part of an overall design, you can't just cherry pick pet peeves here and there. Armies like Khorne and Fyreslayers already "broke" endless spells by having judgements and invocations doing the same thing, but with 0 risk at all. Slaanesh is also entirely immune to their own endless spell effects, the reapers can control their predatory spells, but suffer a -1 cast pentalty as long as they have it active. The only thing this thread should be concerned with might be the Petrifex Elite legion which is insanely poorly balanced, it is too strong and gives the entire army a bad rep, which the Mortek Guard reroll ability magnifies. Any other legion is far from as oppressive. Against other legions games will be "regular" warhammer most of the time, they are one of the new tomes breaking the least rules, while just being strong in general. Take this, a single Keeper of Secrets alone breaks far more rules of the core game than all of the OB book. 1 model can manipulate the fighting phase order, fight twice, auto hit with traits, summon more units by just killing and taking damage, force you to take mortal wounds or possibly die, heal itself from both attacks and spells. Even regular legions of nagash can have entire units wiped out and replace them, recently with the reapers with 4+ unrendable saves in 30 man blocks which could be entirely replaced for 1 CP. Yet these lists fell from grace due to the above. If GW just erratas petrifex with some nerfs, that should mostly fix the tome, and at that point it will just be a good tome but not a top 5 tome compared to others out there. They are certainly not the only ones in need of being brought in line.
  12. Crawlers need line of sight so use the terrain to your advantage as much as possible to avoid getting your wizards picked of early. A failed save will kill a wizard if wounded by a full profile crawler shot for 5 damage. If you can get anything engaged with the crawler you have rendered it useless due to the 6" minimum range, it does not matter what, just get something in their and it is 200 points of plastic standing around, which is much better than actively trying to kill it. Dealing 3-4 wounds at range can be useful though, just to lower the damage enough to not one shot a wizard outright, but your focus is better used elsewhere, especialyl if you can get them engaged rather early with the bridge for example. The mortal wound output by hallowheart does well against the reapers, also mortek guard can only reroll saves in combat, so picking them of with handgunners is ideal, even petrifex mortek guard will "just" be at a 4+ save without rerolls. Screen with cheap stuff, guard with swords and shields, or flagellants if you have them, they dont care about the rend of the reapers and if some flee you can hurt him bad too. If he has a harvester close to mortek guard, don't try to kill them first, either let that deathstar be and focus elsewhere, or go for the harvester first. Don't try to outbrawl him in combat, be smart with engagements and if he uses larger units, engage them on flanks to keep them from piling in effectively and extend the lifespan of your screen, while your ranged units and magic does the damage. I don't know what types of models you have for cities, as mentioned at least handgunners and ranged with some kind of rend will be good, start as much out of line of sight or in cover as possible to minimize the danger of catapults picking of your heroes and squishy ranged units, it does have 0 rend after all. If you have them, shadow warriors are good as well, the reapers have no deep striking or teleporting, so the threat of an ambush unit alone will force him to dedicate guards for the catapults, if 110 pts of 10 shadow warriors can force a unit of mortek guard to chase them around the catapults, thats a good thing, and their shooting with rend will just make it hard for your opponent to trust a 10 warrior unit to get the job done, so he might dedicate even more to guard his backlines, which makes the rest easier to deal with for you.
  13. It is a 50/50 situation, so you could use 2 playing cards to represent each player (like king of hearts and king of spades), shuffle them and put them face down. Your opponent chooses a card and looks at it, then places it face down again, discard the other card.
  14. After the new book I can hardly get people to play my Ironjawz or Big Waagh (with just ironjawz units). I have to very deliberately softball them by simply brining few warchanters. Mighty destroyers is extremely powerful. In a 1k game your friend should avoid a clan and just get the cunning warlord trait instead for 1 free use of mighty destroyers per turn. His Mawkrusha can then move 12"x2 every turn guaranteed and just wreck whatever it wants. Next gore gruntas is king, buff them up with a warchanter for +1 damage to all weapons, mighty destroyer move them twice, so they can move 18" in one turn. Now you got a Mawkrusha and Double damage grunta unit right in the face of the opponent turn 1. Smashing and Bashing will also serve him to easily clear out skink screens for example. On an equal skill level the Ironjawz player would probably run with at least 2/3 wins against the other armies from what I can read here, unless he runs with 0 warchanters then the issue is quite clear on his part. This is as much understanding the army than just the composition. You could go to youtube and look up some battle reports as well, quite a few newer ones with the orruks obviously, not that many with seraphon though of high quality, but did see at least one really interesting competetive game with them on rerolling ones, who brought in a tournament winner with his seraphon.
  15. It was just to back up with data that the Seraphon player is not just winning all the time because of an insanely overpowered army as a previous poster seemed to think as well. He does have a favorable matchup against khorne, but I pointed that out in my post as well. This is also why I asked for more information on what kind of list the seraphon player usually ran, including battalions as most of the Seraphon strongest power lies in the battalions currently. While the sentiment here is true, it also needs to be a fun game for everyone, and 1 side getting steamrolled week after week is not that interesting, being apathetic about it does not make for a more fun game in this scenario. First try to learn as much about your opponent as possible, a lot of people expect to show up with their shinies and just win, without even knowing a single rule from your opponents army, that is simply not how wargaming or any kind of warfare works. Try to remember important rules and warscrolls or at least keep the app open and reference them. Use rulers regularly, ideally have your own so you can take some measurements while the opponent moves etc to not slow down the game. If you know where things are and how long threatening range they have, you will do much better. To do list: 1. Know your opponents army as well as your own. Read the warscrolls (in the app, the book ones are outdated), read the battalions and the GHB19 rules for Seraphon. 2. Measure as much as possible, know when to move as far as possible, know when to stay back, know where to cover ground and deny his teleports, as he needs to be 9" away from any of your units. 3. Play the objective game. The seraphon will exploit an overly aggressive player who leaves little to no defense on objectives and run in circles around you. I can't stress enough how important especially point 1 is, you will do miles better when you can recall rules and warscrolls when taking decisions and moveming your models, dont stand 25" away from the bastilladon turn 1, it can move 5 and shoot 20, make sure to at least force him to use a teleport on it for example. Do not give anything for free like that.
  16. This is the data on win rates as it stands right now. Some armies got more data than others (some being new as well) but the data for older armies form a rather clear picture. Now I am not trying to say your games against each other should work at this level, but what I am trying to illustrate is that Seraphon is a bottom of the barrel army and is also an army requiring quite a bit of skill. Chances are buying new armies will not fix the problem, as he can't really chose anything that performs a lot worse, while he can definitely chose something far more dangerous. This is why, for starters, trying to switch armies might highlight some pointers for you. Bias can become extreme in wargaming, especially on a losing streak, so taking a step back and change perspective will probably be more constructive than just buying new stuff. Seraphon do get bonuses specifically against chaos demons though, and those types of rules, while fluffy are just plain bad for game balance, so your particular matchup is not in your favor when playing demon khorne. But if you really just want to win more easily you could get a FeC army for example, they are very effective against seraphon, as are deepkin, they can be resilient and fast and shut down a lot of tricks.
  17. Shooting and mortal wounds does absoutely wreck them, which is a stable for expensive units per wound, every single mortal wound hurts a lot and healing output is extremely limited for a death army. Faction terrain is completely fine in theory. It is the extension of allegiance abilities and should not be considered a "unit". The talk about the Fyreslayer forge being terrible and the nexus insane next to it makes no sense at all, how is the pizza oven giving +cast to prayers bad and can even be used to give mystic shield army wide for a turn, that is not insignificant. The Nexus I agree is odd, it looks cool, but takes a lot of space, is set up before sides are chosen and other terrain is placed, so will usually just be put right in the middle. It does not make a lot of sense and while the effects can be potent, it is also very unreliable and not something to plan any strategy around, making it feel sort of pointless, yet a nice bonus for the OB player but plain annoying for the opponent. It feels cooler in the battletome battleplan where the OB player needs to defend it against attacks, but in the normal scenarios it is just sort of there.
  18. Are people on crazy pills, Seraphon are performing poorly on the competetive scene. They have tricks but very meager hitting power. Without knowing more about his list it is harder to comment, but for example the average base damage output of a 280 point bastilladon shooting vs a 4+ save is 3,5 damage, which is pitiful and only slightly better specifically against daemons due to +1 damage. The flesh hounds and Karanak should help by getting out there asap, most likely the seraphon player will have few fighty units out there. If he is using both a carnosaur and a troglodon he is already soft balling you somewhat, as both of these are very lackluster, the carnosaur being the most pitiful hero monster in the game for the points, on average a carnosaur does 1/3 of the damage of a mangler squig for example. Threaten his Slann, by spreading out and aiming surgical strikes at it, remember the retricies can both fail and also possible heal as little as 1 and excess damage carries over, so if you do 10 dmg and he heals 3, he is still dead. Use slaughterpriests and judgements to make life a pain for him. Teleporting also takes place in the hero phase while summoning is the end of movement phase. He can only summon near the slann or astrolith bearer, meaning he can not teleport a summoned unit before the turn after. I have a hard time getting over a sentence with Troglodons and tearing through units with shooting is mentioned... It sounds like this guy would absolutely destroy you if he really put his mind to it, so perhaps switch armies? see how he pilots your stuff and get ideas? It will also be frustrating from his perspective, contrary to what one might think, winning all the time, even when soft balling and getting complaints, frowns and as you mention ruining the enthusiasm for the game is terrible. I hope you manage to help each other avoid that.
  19. Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes- Mawtribe: BoulderheadFrostlord on Stonehorn (400)- GeneralFrostlord on Stonehorn (400)Frostlord on Stonehorn (400)Huskard on Thundertusk (340)- ChaintrapHuskard on Thundertusk (340)- Chaintrap2 x Mournfang Pack (140)- Gargant Hackers2 x Mournfang Pack (140)- Gargant Hackers2 x Mournfang Pack (140)- Gargant Hackers2 x Mournfang Pack (140)- Gargant HackersTotal: 2440 / 2500Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 500Wounds: 111 Very weak against magic, but will dish out a lot of mortal wounds. 2 huskards on tusks is for +1 to prayers as well as to only be using the best mount traits. Boulderhead tribe gets mount traits for all monsters, +1 wound on all monsters and can fight at full profile for 1 CP, so yea, great for monsters. Having 15" move and mortal wounds on charges will also give some good advantages vs opposing behemoths. A stonehorn with Metal Cruncher outright does d6 mortal wounds at the start of the combat phase to a unit with a 4+ save or better, that is scary, especially if they already got charged for impact hit mortal wounds. All beastclaw behemoths also counting for 10 models will probably win you games more than anything in this special tournament.
  20. It seems you misunderstood his post. He made a joke which was more a jab at this entire thread than your post, looking at the reactions to his post, clearly a lot of people found that funny as well. His point was jokingly saying that someone commenting on an armys performance based on at least some kind of playing experience is still far better than creating a topic with a hyperbolic title based on no data or experiences at all, which as has been proven will achieve little less than being an echo chamber for complaining about the "new thing". Anyway next month we can close this thread and move on to "Slaves to Darkness, hideously overpowered?", as the longbeards shift focus to grumble about the next new thing some people might be excited about. "Command Points!? Bah! back in my day we had to pretend to twirl our mustaches to rerolls and talk to our imaginary horse!" "Things were better when terrain was homemade and did nothing, as good terrain should" "Made up things before 1990 are the only decent made up things #not my make-believe"
  21. The oxide can be used from the pot on any ghostly part, in fact I'd recommend doing that and then a drybrush/highlight, if you want a tinge to it, you can mix something into that highlight like green for example with some hexwraith flame or any other green paint really. For weathering you can use oxide, but you might want to mix it with some medium, 50/50 if on top of a metallic I think. If you are going for a more ancient and worn look you can use typhus corrosion first which adds texture as well, and then use the oxide mix, which will then dig into the texture and improve the effect as a fast and efficient method.
  22. Well these models take really well to contrast paints. I am "just" using skeleton horde as my base and love using it, as well as wyldwood/snakebite/gore grunta fur, to quickly do leather straps, weapon handles, shield wood and also claws, fangs and "darker bone". I am doing it lower than needed, just to drybrush and highlight a bit more and also doing the armor plates in regular paint. I use Nihilak Oxide a lot as well, and it is an efficient way to ghostly look, especially with a drybrush on top to lighten it up a bit after a heavy coat, you can even add some blue or green to the mix with some white for this drybrush/hightlight. For a stone look Basilicanum grey looks quite good I think and a forgiving color to work with and give a drybrush finish if you want. You could go for the petrifex scheme quite easily from there, with reds and blacks which cover easily. I guess the short of it is to use contrast paints if you want to get these guy done quicker, they take to it really well and wraithbone base works really great with both contrast and regular paint, including nihilak oxide for ghostly effects.
  23. And then everyone will use kavalos instead... Mortek Guard are not a problem. The specific combo of petrifex and mortek guard is what all this complaining here is about. Petrifex should just be reduce rend by 1 or keep the +1 save but only for models with 4+ wounds to fit their fluff. The command ability with +1 rend in melee should instead be something defensive, so 1 legion is not best but in defense and offense.
  24. People talking like a 10 wound harvester is the most difficult thing to kill ever. The harvester only brings back models back if things die right next to it and a smart opponent then just focus the harvester. This happened in my last few games, it never made it to the end of the game, for example against a group of trolls, it got picked out by 3 rockgut while standing next to a mortek guard unit, they took it down in 1 go, while the Troggoth boss ate the mortek guard hekatos, auch! The only thing which is very very (maybe too) strong about this army is petrifex legion alone. If not for that legion, this the OBR is a mid tier army and upper mid tier with Katakros + Praetorian legion. The big problem with Petrifex is not the +1 save alone, as this makes mortek guard incredible (but other armies have incredible units as well) but it makes many other units just worth their points, like morghasts and the harvester, which just rolls over dead without more defense. The real kicker is the command ability for +1 rend, it is when you combine especially mortek guard with the +1 save AND +1 rend it gets crazy and probably too good. I can only hope for some errata down the road rebalancing the legions, but it does not seem GW wants to mess with that much, just look at DoK and Hag Narr temple for example. Without +1 save Mortek Guard already fall by the wayside compared to other tough and killy infantry and without access to +1 rend their offensive output is also very average for their price tag (which is fine for a defensive army).
  25. For sure you can. The mortek guard are popular and rightly so and it would be a good idea to bring some, but just going with 3x20 is not needed to play this army. This is just an example but for a heavy cavalry force with powerful magic as well could look like this: Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers- Legion: Petrifex EliteLiege-Kavalos (200)- General- Trait: Mighty Archaeossian- Artefact: Helm of the OrdainedArkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament (360)Mortisan Soulmason (140)- Artefact: Godbone Armour- Lore of Mortisans: Arcane Command10 x Kavalos Deathriders (360)- Nadirite Blade and Shield10 x Kavalos Deathriders (360)- Nadirite Blade and Shield20 x Mortek Guard (260)- Nadirite Blade and Shield3 x Necropolis Stalkers (200)Kavalos Lance (120)Total: 2000 / 2000 I am in doubt about the Soulmason vs Boneshaper, as both are good, this is just to get magic superiority, as the soulmason will most likely be able to hand out a lot of reroll 1s to hit, so you will often do 6 spells per turn. Arkhan being at +2 to cast and unbind is also very powerful and people seem to underestimate the magic defense he brings. The list only generated 5 discipline points by default and has few units, which is why I chose arcane command for the soulmason to possibly provide a few more points. This is because you really want to be using Petrifex +1 rend as much as possible! 10 Kavalos possibly moving 15" and charging in with their 10 dice for 5+ mortal wounds and a 6" pile in is scary, even more so if the riders got rend 2 and horsies rend 1. Add the Liege and his helm for +1 to hit and possiblt reroll 1 to hit from the soulmason and things look scary! 20 Mortek is always solid, so kept a unit of that and Stalkers pack a nasty punch and can advance behind the kavalos or mortek for a hefty counter punch as needed. Some setups might be slightly more optimal than others, but something like this is definately playable and you can switch stuff around to match your favourite models.
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