Scurvydog

That was said by Sentinels amd Gotrek as well and look where we are 😛 If they get more expensive though, Dragon lists will not have the bodies to work and be lacking damage. So with more expensive dragons and a removal of translocate move they could nuke the stormcast book into meh tier as before. Hope that does not happen.

A problems with Scrions really being those 9" away is not useful aggressively like GW seems to think it is. Protectors and such will not be very useful and I already have no idea what the hype about vindictors is all about, as they do not tank or do the damage that wins games, just overall OK unit, that does not perform in the competitive scene. Without translocate there would still be some options: Ranged: Raptors and Judicators are both viable units thanks to double tap as well. Infantry: Annihilators + imperatant combo will be the only working "deep strike" (do we have a good AoS word for this yet?) mechanism. Savalry: Drakes obviously, but even without translocate there is still room for Dracoths I think, they are just solid heavy cav all around. I think the new Stormcast works best as combined arms the more I play around with lists, having a block of judicators or raptors seem to solve a lot of other problems, such as screens and picking off key characters such as demon princes of khorne, which could completely stop a melee army from doing anything. A list I am looking at I think could still work without translocate or any of the new models is this one: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: InspiredAventis Firestrike Magister of Hammerhal (325)*- Mount Trait: Scintillating Trail- Spell: Celestial BladesLord-Relictor (145)*- General- Command Trait: High Priest- Artefact: Mirrorshield- Prayer: Translocation4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)**- Reinforced x 14 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)**- Reinforced x 15 x Liberators (115)*- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*- Reinforced x 1*Battle Regiment**Hunters of the HeartlandsTotal: 1990 / 2000Reinforced Units: 4 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 96Drops: 3 I am warming up to the Tauralon and was actually first looking at this list with a celestant prime, then considering this was a hammers list anyway, it seemed to be more efficient to get Aventis, as he could initially buff up +1 hit on raptors in the shooting phase. He can also cast and unbind 2 spells instead 1 as the regular Tauralon, heal d3 wounds in your hero phase, his warscroll spell is better and even his staff got rend 2. I think that is a fair trade for the points. If not using translocation there are other good prayers for the relictor to do or he could be switched for an incantor og castellant for even more save stacking. Raptors and libs could be traded to 15 judicators. This sacrifices a bit of versatility from having 2 units, so libs could just stand and hold an obj, it also sacrifices some critical range. The tradeoff is a bit more wounds but also dmg 1, which means the Judicators can deal much better with 2 major meta threats, which is Gotrek and Seraphon thunderlizards, as they all reduce damage from raptors by half.

I think that would make the list a bit too light on bodies, only engaging at 1 spot, perhaps 2 with the knight does not create all that much pressure. With only 1 use of the hero phase shooting, I think multiple ranged units become much less efficient, the great Value lies in that initial double tap to support the dragon charge. There are a bunch of DPS check lists in the meta right now, which is why there is a 6 man greathammer unit of annihilators, they do so much more damage, yet are less tanky of course. The 2x3 shield annihilators is not unplayable though. The above list sits at 1995 but there are of course options to do other stuff. Like this below, Knights Excelsior is needed here for battleline purposes, you could of course go with less, but then the imperatant becomes too costly to just "deliver" 1 unit I think. It loses out on hammers with a good chance of having 6+ wards in many cases, which hurts some, but ofc the annihilators become a bit better, especially with the +1 hit/+1 wound ability of knights excelsior, just take them into larger units to tank if possible. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior- Grand Strategy:- Triumphs:Knight-Draconis (255)- GeneralLord-Imperatant (175)4 x Stormdrake Guard (570)- Reinforced x 13 x Annihilators (200)3 x Annihilators (200)15 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (600)- Reinforced x 2 I

There will only be fuel for all the 40k and Killteam releases as we can see

I do not think the imperatant and annihilators are really worth it, almost 600 points to deliver 2 units of 9 wounds worth of guys, for a similar feel, but more efficient combat activation and command point usage I would consider this list to be quite solid: Knight-Draconis (255)- GeneralLord-Imperatant (175)4 x Stormdrake Guard (570)- Reinforced x 15 x Liberators (115)- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield10 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (400)- Reinforced x 16 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)- Reinforced x 1 You got 3 hammers and the judicators can be used to fire twice once per game, which could allow you to clear screens for the annihilators for example. The Lord imperatant can move up with the judicators and support them and possibly liberators. Between the judicators and drakes there is quite some significant ranged firepower as well and the knight draconis can make them fire twice, A salvo from 4 of them should be around 6ish mortal wounds (swingy) and fire twice is quite dangerous! For Stormhost I'd say hammers to get some 6+ wards going would benefit this elite list. I am quite liking this take actually and it does not rely on Lord Relictors translocation not being FAQd

Agreed, I find it hard to justify vindictors in most builds, they are good on paper, but really they are not the work horses of the army, they are not fast or hard hitting enough. If you want a hard hitting anvil you go for protectors for example. Especially when just getting a 5 man squad, reach doesnt really matter, you probably wont use all out defense much anyway on them and the liberator prime with 3 great weapon attacks makes their output very similar. I'd say the Stardrake will lack behind a bit from a pure min max perspective, however it does have some justifications. Damage output is very similar between a stardrake and 1 knight draconis without considering the instant kill mechanics of both. These work in a similar manner, the Stardrake can simply do this 3 times, which can be a big difference in output when outright slaying blightkings or troggoths on a 5+. If you want a dragon general, the stardrake is a good choice too, as it is simply harder to kill due to more wounds on the same save, making an amulet of destiny more efficient as well. The ranged attack of the Stardrake is more useful as well in my opinion and often ignored, at 30" range it can quite reliably outright snipe a support hero, with all out attack on top it is about 5,5 average dmg against a 4+ save, which also makes it useful to finish of a model too, take out a demon prince in 2 shooting phases or single handedly just get those 3 wounds per turn removed from Morathi right from the start of the game thanks to 30" range. If you are running Stormdrakes, especially a unit of 4, that adds a lot of value to the knight draconis bonus shooting in the hero phase ability. The knight also has a 4+ spell ignore for himself, which is handy. The stardrake has a +1/-1 cast for friendly/enemy wizards, that should not be ignored as it is one of the only sources of cast bonuses Stormcast has. If you have any wizards then that adds to the Stardrakes value quite a bit. As a minor thing the Stardrake has a free command once per game. There is a lot to like about 2 Knight Draconis instead of a Stardrake. I doubt I would ever take 2 of them and instead invest in more stormdrakes, but that is a different discussion. The 2 knights will give more raw damage output, more board presence being 2 models, if within 12" their breath attacks got a higher potential as well. The stardrake has some more utility, takes more effort to kill, so a good choice for menagerie trait, ranged attack with more utility and more efficiency as a single model anvil for artifacts etc. I am quite sure in most min max setups a knight draconis will be the general, to have more points for stormdrakes or possibly adding in one of the named lads. Stardrake + Krondys is also fun for +4 cast 😛

Guess the new stormcast models will be released for Christmas. Prepare your chimney beartraps for James Workshop

Next WD got tome celestial for Seraphon. Update sounds very minor like the STD one last time. A new core battalion and changing a largely pointless rule for coalesced seraphon and not much else. Not sure why these things could not have been in the FAQ's, it just creates problems and clutter having official matched play updates in white dwarf... Come on GW you just launched a new app and subscription service...

If there ever was a reason for it, despite my general aversion to super glue, resin and so on, I can not fault any Seraphon player when these are the options

I think this also actually highlights what GW does well, although far less apples to apples. Sure from only a model perspective, anyone entirely not in the know, might point to the right one saying that looks more detailed, and why is the left one standing on a strange brown penny. The difference here is context, GW has a game and a universe, the left guy IS an arch regent, a mad create spreading his delusion to his subejcts. You can read the book, watch the artwork, for some armies/factions play games, watch animations etc. The guy to the right is "generic proxy vampire guy". I went down this road myself with a mostly proxy army at one point, but ended up just disliking it in the end. Difficult to get new stuff when I wanted, always having to clear matters with TO's/event coordinators if I wanted to bring that army and at some level a disconnect with the rest of the setting. The value proposition here is the entire context this model represents, on top of it being a cool model. Honestly in this case I prefer the actual arch regent, the more extreme proportions both catch paint well and also helps it pop more in a game table, which I often find to be a problem with more "realistic" 3rd party models, they quickly just blend together in a gaming situation. I will be the first to admire anyone showing off their awesome demon prince from creature caster, the regular demon prince for sure does not hold up well anymore, but at the same time it just looks that bit out of place, even if painted to match the rest of the force. In the end I can only speak for myself that I have just about stopped my 3rd party days, as I am growing more attached to the AoS lore in addition to collecting an army like a "collector", I want the real deal, even if they are not the prettiest (Seraphon old school reporting in). I would never dream of not allowing anyone else to play with what they wanted and I dislike the "fear" of TO's or "That Guy" refusing to allow play with cool 3rd party armies, just because a GW unit is using bows but that proxy unit got crossbows. That said I am impressed of what is shown from some companies like Lost Kingdoms when I see how they just about monthly it seems like, release 3d printing files for entirely new forces. I just do not have easy access to anyone or any nearby company with a reasonable price to print this stuff even if I wanted to, and if it comes from the UK forget about it

I just didnt mention the 2x5 ardboys thats all, I posted the list a bit earlier, but it is 2 MKs, 2 Chanters, 10 brutes, 2x5 ardboyz and 2x3 gruntas, so it is legal I would agree there is a play for lots of brutes, perhaps even a lot of MSU units in da choppas with perhaps 2-3 warchanters. Brutes are not that hard to kill, but wave after wave is a problem for anyone, and even 5 with violent fury do some really nasty work, although 10 can still take a few hits and dish back the pain and/or more likely to trigger a smashing and bashing. Might even go with footboss and a MK. The MK will be a prime target, so might even consider the footboss the general and go for mega bossy, then from these 2 alone it would be possible to double move up to 5 units to give the slower brutes some momentum up the board.

Yea it is not terrible at all, I just find it lacks some focus. If bringing Stormdrakes a Knight Draconis is both cheaper and deals for more damage, with double tap ability as well for drakes and spell ignores. I also fear the FAQ on behalf of this guy. The part of cycle of the storm that stakes the model does not count as being slain, I really think is intended to stop Blaze of Glory, as that requires a model to be slain and I belive the -intention- is that the model should not count as being slain in the first place at any point. I am hope the FAQ will clear this up regardless to remove any doubt. I don't get why he lost 2 spells, that really did not seem to be overpowered at all, I'd rather see him being more expensive and with 2 casts and a +1 modifier or something, or if the base Tauralon was basically what Aventis is, to still allow for customization. Wonder if GW will delay the FAQs as well several weeks, seeing how slow releases are going.

I just really do not see the potential of this thing. +1 to hit can be done so easily elsewhere and otherwise it is the worst possible caster and the worst monster combined into one. At about the same cost you could get Bastian, Yndrasta or Celestant Prime, all of those i my opinion brings so much more to the army. I am happy for anyone enjoying it, it is a very interesting piece, but it is just too generalist to really do much of anything or be a threat to anyone I think. But guess we will see once tournament results pop up with the new book.

Only me who does not even dare to buy any models to make lists, even without the new models, in case the FAQ does change the relictor? I am in no way confident it will not be changed again from what it is now, which will completely bust most of the ideas presented here, because how great will most lists be without the Relictor? The only goto I can see then is something like 6 longstrikes/15 judis + 6 annihilators with hammers + imperatant, that would be the only way to get units across the field somewhat efficiently, even if the 7+ reroll charge is not that reliable.

Just 3 gruntas with violent fury during Waagh does around 21 damage against a 4+ save. Warbosses being able to might destroyer multiple units make Gruntas some of the fastest units in the game. Unless going for Mega Gargants a MK does not even need violent fury to dish out a lot of damage, With 2 warchanters, running the 2 MK, 2x3 guntas and 10 brutes list, I would probably buff up 1 MK and 1 grunta unit, alpha in the 2 MKs and the buffed gruntas in a way to maximize smashing and bashing potential. Those guys will probably be out of range for violent fury next hero phase, which is where the "backup" grunta unit and brutes can come in with wave 2 buffed up and ready to go.

Came up with something a bit similar, but doubling down even more: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: InspiredLord-Relictor (145)*- General- Command Trait: High Priest- Prayer: TranslocationKnight-Incantor (125)*- Spell: Celestial BladesLord-Castellant (155)*- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)- Spell: Thundershock4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)*- Reinforced x 14 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)*- Reinforced x 115 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (600)*- Reinforced x 2*Battle RegimentHoly Command: Thunderbolt VolleyTotal: 1945 / 2000Reinforced Units: 4 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 97Drops: 1 Idea is to ensure whatever the fulminators need to hit dies. Judicators clear out any screens as needed. Fulminators get buffed with +1 save lantern, inspired when needed, all out attack and mystic shield in wave 1, put into place with the relictor translocation. Those guys on 2+/2+ will 1 shot even a mega gargant, and sit there being very sturdy. At this point the opponent should be extremely scared of wave 2 sitting ready and the first wave will probaly be around looking smug. The idea is to have a triple super threat here, and still enough wounds to have some board presence. Spells are low cast, magic heavy armies will still unbind them, but they are not absolutely critical, but very nice if they go off. Mega Gargant armies will be absolutely terrified of this list. It will with no effort murder 1 right from the start, the only chance being a lucky reposition with a failed charge with reroll. Unleash hell is also good here, even 4 dracoths should do around 4 MWs with it. There is no screening here though, it does not went to get alphaed, which is what the 1 drop is for.

Looking into this list, possibly finally buying the mawcrusha nr 2. I can see why mighty waagh leader will not come into play much, Mega bossy will allow more of the army to move ahead quickly right away, getting both warchanters and brutes with 1 and the 2 MKs and a grunta unit with the other for example, it gives a lot of efficient movement from the getgo, and should be worth a trait alone for that. I am unsure about going 6 gruntas or 2x3, but the brutes are intended as a second wave, while ardboyz are used as initial screens and objective grabbers, the gruntas in the 2x3 setup will skirmish ahead Allegiance: Ironjawz- Warclan: Ironsunz- Grand Strategy:- Triumphs:Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist- Artefact: Armour of Gork- Mount Trait: Fast 'UnMegaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)- General- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist- Command Trait: Mega Bossy- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)Orruk Warchanter (115)*- Warbeat: Get 'Em BeatOrruk Warchanter (115)*- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat10 x Orruk Brutes (320)**- Pair of Brute Choppas- 2x Gore Choppas- Reinforced x 15 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**- Pig-iron Choppas3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**- Pig-iron Choppas*Warlord**Hunters of the HeartlandsArtefactTotal: 1980 / 2000Reinforced Units: 1 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 128Drops: 9

Well that is exactly it. DoK got a tight knit battletome with some impactful allegiance abilities and strong synergies, although much of this hinges on Morathi being book defining by herself admittedly. As I mentioned I looked at this entirely with a competitive mindset, so these are the lists that will be faced in events and 10 judicators for 400 points just come out short every time against 10 bow snakes for 340 points.

Yea, at least it forces a hard look at the rest of the book. Perhaps it is the bitterness of the wait and now probably not having time to paint up anything new for this falls events, but outside of these new units, there are really few tools in the book to deal with the competitive meta. Don't get me wrong, the core warscrolls are pretty good for a lot of older units, but it is just not enough in itself, to be more than 3/2 to 4/1 on the best of days. Looking at this purely in a competitive manner we do not have as good tools, or outright lacking tools, to deal with the major threats going around right now. Shooting: Sentinels and Bow snakes are a pretty direct comparison to our ranged units. Judicators got MW on 6s sure, buw Blood stalkers got the same ranged profile, but they are cheaper per 5 (170 vs 200), less save but much faster and got a ward. Blood stalkers also got way better support, especially with hero phase shooting from Morathi, which Judicators can only do 1 time at best. Sentinels still blow them out of the water, with MWs on 5s from power of Hysh and 30" range and no line of sight requirement. They will also often be within a 5+ ward bubble, are faster and better at contesting objectives. Heroes: We got no unique command abilities. We got some decent named characters, which are OK, they do not an army make though. As we are only looking at the currently available models, the stardrake and tauralon are our monster choices. They are just OK, with the Tauralon being more a utility piece, the Stardrake is the closest we get. I am not sure if he is up to the task of going toe to toe with similar pointed monster heroes, like Mega gargants, Mawkrushas, VLoZD etc. Those armies also got a better supporting system around their heroes typically, where Stormcast is almost just a compendium of warscrolls at this point with no real mechanic around them. Utility: Everything seems to ride on the Lord Relictor and translocation at this point. If that gets FAQ'd at all, then the entire tome just nosedives into bleh territory for anything but the dragon builds. The paladin builds rely on this mobility trick to get anywhere important. Without it, they are just sitting ducks, and walking around the table is just asking to get peppered with mortal wounds. For casting we got a decent spell lore, but none of the available units got any bonuses to cast and we only got Aventis with more than 1 cast, as the regular Tauralon was brought down to 1 cast only. Relying on magic is just not going to happen in any competitive scene, as this will just get completely shut down by Seraphon, Lumineth, Nagash/Arkhan and will be tough against basically anyone else with the slightest bonus to unbind. Points run out so fast and the wound count is low, as many points need to be invested to simply get the decent hammer units into range, without getting destroyed on the way. The lord imperatant is an expensive tax to simply get annihilators to work OK, and the relictor eats up almost 150 pts and a command trait, to sort of reliable get paladin units into combat or Fulminators. Even then, we get an issue with screening units and to deal with that, we need around 400 pts of ranged units as well... Drakes solve most of these issue on their own warscroll, as well as benefitting so darn much from a single command trait. Once you have a -1 to be wounded trait for ALL monsters boardwide, doubling down on monsters is just so efficient. They fix the issue with poor anti magic, with a 50% magic ignore. They fix the mobility and delivery mechanism issues on their own, with hero phase move+charge. They provide fine ranged damage as well, a big improvement over the dracothian guards. They also fly and get all the monstrous rampage stuff, while they can be put into a hunters of the heartlands themselves. This is sort of the book where nothing is greater than the sum of their parts is what I feel and I keep failing to make any list I am confident in doing better than 3/2 with, with the currently available models...

This also highlights pain points in the new book. I really want to have Stormcast as my current hobby project. Expanding my army into the competitive area after playing other armies. But I can't see how to make a competitive army in this current Meta with the new book without any of the new units. The Annihilators and Stormdrakes are a huge part of where the power now lies, although the new battlelines are super cool, they are super bad, so nobody will ever play them unfortunately. I guess something half decent could be something like this, just not really too confident in that really, a lot of the meta lists it will have a hard time with. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: InspiredLord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)*- Celestine Hammer- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)- Mount Trait: Celestial InstinctsLord-Relictor (145)*- General- Command Trait: High Priest- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)- Prayer: TranslocationKnight-Incantor (125)*- Spell: Celestial Blades4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)**- Reinforced x 14 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)**- Reinforced x 15 x Liberators (115)*- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield- 1x Grandblades1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)***Warlord**Hunters of the HeartlandsArtefactTotal: 1970 / 2000Reinforced Units: 2 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 99Drops: 7

Guess I wont be bringing stormcast to any events this year. This is just silly at this point.

Yes usually this should be around 5,5 hours from the time of writing this. I have been disappointed so many sundays now though, hoping to see those new models finally lining of for orders... But it would make a lot of sense if at least some was revealed for preorder next week later today.

We will know later today what is going up for pre-order next saturday, it might still be some stormcast, would make sense after having kruleboyz, then 40k orkz, then back to AoS... I hope... Still even then that would be 1 month from tome release to actually getting any of the new models, unless they delay even longer... People seem to love them so much, I just can't see them do very well against so many lists. Sure with all out attack and the 1 time per game double tap, they could make a dent in some things, but there are so many counter that will take them right off the board. For example KO, they will just drop down and nuke them with no effort, 12 wounds on a 4+ save for nearly 500 pts is just a juicy target. I see them snipe off around 500 pts, then die themselves. I think the list will lack some punch. Outside the longstrikes there is really nothing hitting all that hard. Liberators and vindictors will not really be able to deal with any threats on their own. Aetherwings are also just "there". The chariots got very little punching power and the heroes are mostly there for support, I am just talking competitive gaming here, for everything else this is just fine, I just do not think it has the tools to deal with the big boys out there. For example Sons of Behemat will just walk over this, even if the longstrikes manage to shoot one down, it is unlikely to happen in 1 battle round, even with double shooting, and after that it will be impossible to deal with them before the game is lost. Same goes for Morathi and bow snakes, who will simply teleport a unit of snakes into range as needed and shoot away the longstrikes, while Morathi just tanks. Seraphon will do the same with their ranged firepower, while also contesting objectives way better.

That continues to be a problem when I try to make paladin lists. I think the dragon lists are good and paladins are interesting, but Stormdrakes got all those tools to move fast, move/charge in hero phases to avoid reposition/unleash and can also use shooting attacks to clear screens. Paladins rely on the expensive delivery mechanism heroes, without a relictor and imperatant, the list is going nowhere, but these heroes cost over 300 points and do very little else, while probably also being way behind the main fighting force at that point. So while the paladin idea is cool and they can pack a punch, I got a hard time making a list that works well around them. Going with 6 hammer annihilators basically requires the imperatant, then you invested over 600 points into getting an 18 wound unit into battle, which will not really go anywhere after they commit.

Another attempt at a Knights excelsior list. I keep going back and forth on Yndrasta, she could be traided in to get a unit of 4 Stormdrakes instead of 2, but she is also a handy utility piece and every paladin she brings back is a big deal and she got the potential to cripple some monsters in their potential output by just engaging. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: BloodthirstyYndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)*Lord-Relictor (145)*- General- Command Trait: High Priest- Prayer: TranslocationLord-Imperatant (175)*- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)- Spell: Thundershock6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*- Reinforced x 110 x Protectors (450)*- 4x Starsoul Maces- Reinforced x 15 x Vindictors (130)*2 x Stormdrake Guard (285)**Battle RegimentTotal: 1985 / 2000Reinforced Units: 2 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 97Drops: 1 Alternatively double down, however I think having no fast moving units at all is a problem Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: BloodthirstyLord-Relictor (145)*- General- Command Trait: High Priest- Prayer: TranslocationLord-Imperatant (175)*- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)- Spell: Thundershock6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*- Reinforced x 16 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*- Reinforced x 110 x Protectors (450)*- 4x Starsoul Maces- Reinforced x 15 x Retributors (235)**Battle RegimentTotal: 1965 / 2000Reinforced Units: 3 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 94Drops: 1