King Taloren
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Posts posted by King Taloren
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dont Apply rules that appear in other abilities until GW says to do that. They have already stated how ability work with conflicting things
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Basically any time you see an attack characteristic that is the number of attacks per model in range that the unit can make with that weapon if they are carrying it.
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Abilities take precedence on who’s turn it is and when the conditions were placed on the unit. Soul cage happens in the hero phase so it applied first and then if the player has command ability that lets him fight first it will override the soul cage. Because it is applied in the fight phase.
So far only a handful of fight first/last abilities (slaanesh) and spells have anything that deal with conflicts like this outside of which ever was applied last is the current situation.
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Though the one issue is that the rules for battleshock test say that a success or failure is determined by the modified result. All other rolls do not make such claims about modifiers at all.
They even specifically call out battleshock roll and battleshock test separately which seems to be making a clear distinction between the two imo.
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Spite Revenants have the ability that forces any successful battleshock tests to be rerolled.
The question is do you count the reroll of the battleshock test like a normal reroll and do it before the modified result? (Which the core rules state modified result is the only way to determine if it is a successful or failed battleshock test)
Or do you do it after the modified result because you cannot determine the success or failure accurately without adding the slain models?
Because at this point unmodified vs 80% of the units in the game the ability is completely worthless because all rolls will be successful before modifiers.
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I figure this might get some more notice as part of the topic with the regular rules guys. (Looking at you guys @EMMachine, @Isotop,)
Majority of the discussion can be found here:
https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/23569-spite-revenants-unbridled-malice-any-good/
So the TLDR:
The Designer Commentary and Core Rules state that all re-rolls are applied before modifiers
QuoteQ: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?
A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied,
so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!Is a battleshock ability that forces a re roll of the battleshock test part of this reroll before modifiers ruling or is is a separate entity?
QuoteMAKING ATTACKS
Attacks are resolved one at a time using the following attack sequence. In some cases, you can resolve all of the attacks made by the same type of weapon at the same time (see Multiple Attacks, below).
1. Hit Roll: Roll a dice. If the roll equals or beats the attacking weapon’s To Hit characteristic, then it scores a hit and you must make a wound roll. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A hit roll of 1 before modification always fails to hit the target, and a hit roll of 6 before modification always hits the target.
2. Wound Roll: Roll a dice. If the roll equals or beats the attacking weapon’s To Wound characteristic, then it is successful and the opposing player must make a save roll. If not, then the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A wound roll of 1 before modification always fails, and a wound roll of 6 before modification is always successful.
3. Save Roll: The opposing player rolls a dice, modifying the roll by the attacking weapon’s Rend characteristic. For example, if a weapon has a -1 Rend characteristic, then 1 is subtracted from the save roll. If the result equals or beats the Save characteristic of the models in the target unit, the save succeeds and the attack sequence ends without causing any damage. If not, the save fails and the attack is successful, and you must determine damage on the target unit. A save roll of 1 before modification always fails.
4. Determine Damage: Each successful attack inflicts damage on the target unit equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon making the attack. Most weapons have a Damage characteristic of 1, but some have a Damage characteristic of 2 or more.
BATTLE SHOCK PHASE:
In the battleshock phase, both players must take battleshock tests for units from their army that have had models slain during the turn. The player whose turn it is tests first. You must make a battleshock roll for each unit that has to take a battleshock test. To make a battleshock roll, roll a dice. Add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn to the dice roll, and add 1 to the unit’s Bravery characteristic for every 10 models that are in the unit when the test is taken. If the modified battleshock roll is greater than the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, the battleshock test has been failed. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit must flee. You decide which of the models from your units flee – remove them from play and count them as having been slain.
The Battleshock test does explicitly state that the result of a failure and sucess hinges on the modified totals.
Is re-rolling a battlesock test different from re-rolling a hit, wound or save roll?
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Right and when a person refuses to see a plain difference I call them someone trying to push the narrative that they hate the re-roll before modifiers, because it messes up their WAAC game play, and desperately trying to prove that it is useless by trying to point out anything they can that makes the mechanic screwed up even if it isn't an actual problem with the rule so everyone can agree that something needs to be fixed because he knows the rules better than everyone else here in spite just now starting to play the game versus all the people on this forum who've been playing Game Workshop games for years who disagree with him. (which in case you haven't noticed not a single comment here has agreed with you) Just cause you rule out people because they can't show you a explicit commentary explaining the difference doesn't mean it's not good or accurate, I've seen this stuff before in 40k and WHFB, this is nothing new.
Every Ability that deals with Battleshock calls it a test. Every ability that deals with Hit Wound and saves call it a roll. How do you determine a failure of a hit wound or save? Look at the Roll it doesn't say modified roll. does it? Battleshock on the other hand very explicitly states the determination is from a modified totals. The Abilities to not say reroll the Battleshock roll but the battleshock test. I'm sorry the rules don't get any clearer than that. this is how Games Workshop does things because they think their audience is smart enough to distinguish the minute differences between certain actions.
Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?
A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied,
so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!could it be that the context of the designer commentary says successful or failed rolls instead of successful or failed tests?!?!?
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I’m not conceding anything I’m just done with someone who decides that unless it’s blatantly spelled out word for word in minute detail it’s an opinion.
Also you are free to play as you wish just understand that is your way to play and not how the TOs and tournaments run the rules.
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Welp the obvious thing to do here is send the designers an email to aosfaq@gwplc.com and you can inform them of their sad mistake and they can issue a fix in the next FAQ release.
Meanwhile the rest of us will play the game as it’s intended. You can’t always go by the read as written when it is obviously not what the intent of the rule is.
On the other side of this the reroll without modifiers is very explicit in saying what it does. Have fun.
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Ok so unless it fits within your set of expectations for rules anything I tell you is invalid. Good to know.
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1 hour ago, T10 said:
I can't seem to find anything in the core rules that distinguishes between "rolls" and "tests" as two different classes of determining results and that elaborates on the difference between them. I believe you have invented this.
-T10
Ehem. Here is the key differences as in the core rules:
MAKING ATTACKS
Attacks are resolved one at a time using the following attack sequence. In some cases, you can resolve all of the attacks made by the same type of weapon at the same time (see Multiple Attacks, below).
1. Hit Roll: Roll a dice. If the roll equals or beats the attacking weapon’s To Hit characteristic, then it scores a hit and you must make a wound roll. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A hit roll of 1 before modification always fails to hit the target, and a hit roll of 6 before modification always hits the target.
2. Wound Roll: Roll a dice. If the roll equals or beats the attacking weapon’s To Wound characteristic, then it is successful and the opposing player must make a save roll. If not, then the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A wound roll of 1 before modification always fails, and a wound roll of 6 before modification is always successful.
3. Save Roll: The opposing player rolls a dice, modifying the roll by the attacking weapon’s Rend characteristic. For example, if a weapon has a -1 Rend characteristic, then 1 is subtracted from the save roll. If the result equals or beats the Save characteristic of the models in the target unit, the save succeeds and the attack sequence ends without causing any damage. If not, the save fails and the attack is successful, and you must determine damage on the target unit. A save roll of 1 before modification always fails.
4. Determine Damage: Each successful attack inflicts damage on the target unit equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon making the attack. Most weapons have a Damage characteristic of 1, but some have a Damage characteristic of 2 or more.
BATTLE SHOCK PHASE:
In the battleshock phase, both players must take battleshock tests for units from their army that have had models slain during the turn. The player whose turn it is tests first. You must make a battleshock roll for each unit that has to take a battleshock test. To make a battleshock roll, roll a dice. Add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn to the dice roll, and add 1 to the unit’s Bravery characteristic for every 10 models that are in the unit when the test is taken. If the modified battleshock roll is greater than the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, the battleshock test has been failed. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit must flee. You decide which of the models from your units flee – remove them from play and count them as having been slain.
They spell it out quite plainly.
Note that the Battleshock Phase is the only one that specifically calls for a modified roll.
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6 minutes ago, T10 said:
That can be said of hit rolls as well.
No because it is a Hit ROLL not a TEST. This is the very key difference between the two.
The roll can be determined without modifiers. A straight roll to hit is possible. A battleshock test can never be determined without modifiers
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So the problem here is what is the difference between a battleshock test and rerolling failed rolls.
The battleshock rules define that a failed/successful test is after all modfiers are applied. It is not hinges on the dice roll itself but the total of the dice roll plus models slain vs the modified bravery characteristic. The abilities do not say reroll failed/successful dice rolls but tests. Therefore rerolling something that cannot be determined as a failed or successful on the dice roll itself is not the intent of the rule. Orherwise 90% of the abilities that allow you to reroll successful or failed battleshock tests are worthless.
Abilities that mention failed/successful dice ROLLs on the other hand do indeed state that the DICE ROLL is what is the determining factor in what is being rerolled. So this obviously is a reroll before the modfiers are further included because it is an what has been stated in the core rules.
There is a precedence in this that tests are not equal to normal rolls because you cannot consider them successful or failures until you have fompared the modified results. Whereas a Hit/Wound/Save ROLL does have a prebuilt determination factor of success or failure because it can be seen as a result before modifiers are applied to further change the results.
In fact it might be prudent that instead rerolling battleshock tests you are forced to retake them instead.
It feels like you just trying to push your narrative about your dislike of a core rule and designer commentary instead of taking the rules as intended and written
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11 hours ago, King Taloren said:
Q: When a characteristic is referenced (Bravery, for example), does this mean the value on the warscroll, or the value on the warscroll including any modifiers?
A: The value including any modifiers.Modified characteristics are not the same as a modified roll. You do not ignore the modifiers for battleshock purposes when determining the value of bravery.
The modifier before rerolls is only referencing anything that actually modifies the dice roll itself.
Ex: Subtract 2 from the dice roll would be a modifier.
Subtract 2 from bravery is not a dice modifier and is not ignored.
I am fairly certain they meant to claim that a characteristic roll is different from any other roll in the game especially with how mich larger the numbers involved generally turn out to be.
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The artifact rules are behind the paywall of having to buy the tomes/handbook/supplement with the azyr app. Which are the almost the same price as the physical versions.
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The simple reasoning is that without it, the rerolling successful tests is complete bunk for 60-80% of armies in the game. Because without the addition of the models slain then the reroll have absolutely no meaning unless you are one of the three-four armies with anything less than bravery 5.
Compared to -1 to hit or wound; this ability actually has value and gains value for having an impact in the game. Even when an opponent can reroll fails it allows for those -1s to give something of a defensive power as it is intended and not buff an army with 16% or more dice to reroll as failures and end up with even more hits as if the -1 doesn’t exist.
Also from the FAQ:
Q: When a characteristic is referenced (Bravery, for example), does this mean the value on the warscroll, or the value on the warscroll including any modifiers?
A: The value including any modifiers. -
I feel that in the case of battleshock the rule might need clarification as to what is considered a modifier to the roll. Just because upon add the models to the roll doesn’t necessarily make it a modifier because it is a key component to determining a success or failure beyond anything that provides a +/- to the roll. Do note that a +/-1 bravery is not a modifier to the dice roll but the characteristic and must be applied because it is not modifying the roll but the number the dice must reach.
A bravery 5 with a -1 makes it a 4 before any modifiers to the dice roll are made.
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There is a difference because it is not a modified roll as people think it is. There are modifiers to the roll like -1 bravery but the straight up normal roll of the battleshock dice is the model slain +d6 against bravery. In this case before modifiers still included the models slain because it is not a actual modifier
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Outside of The verminlords, Skaven are all 5 and 4s .
But you may be thinking the bravery test wrong. You total the amount of models slain and then roll a d6. If that number is higher than your bravery that is how many additional models are lost. If you are only killing 1 model at a time then you wouldn’t get mich use out of this ability but aside from demons most units are bravery 6-7 and killing at least 3 gives a 50/50 chance of losing more models.
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Yes. They should be available just be sure to have the warscrolls and points on hand if/when you take them to the tournament to show the TO and your opponents for proofs.
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Only if they have points included for matched play/pitched battle with them. If they do not have any points attached in any location (warscroll builder on Warhammer Community, Azyr, GHB 19, or in the magazine) then it is only valid for open play.
If it is a terrain feature or something that normally doesn’t have points like an artifact. You will have to find out with your TO if they will let you take those rules.
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40 minutes ago, PiotrW said:
Okay, so let me get this straight:
1. Charge is the only way my unit can attack enemy units - unless, for some reason, it already is the enemy unit's 3''? So, I cannot move my unit so that stands 3'' away from the enemy, skip charge and, then, declare my attack and pile in?
Yes. Because you can not end any normal moves within 3” of an enemy unit. This means on the outside of the 3” line.
You cannot stop close enough that you can pile in in the combat phase without charging.
You will have to either charge, or be charged or have it close enough that his charging another of your units allows you to be close enough to fight him. Pile in and charge moves are the only moves that you can end a movement inside the 3” line.
the only current exception to this rule is the Khaine Sisters of Slaughter with their 6” pile in and attack special rules.
40 minutes ago, PiotrW said:2. I don't get to choose which enemy models in the enemy unit I attack? And the enemy unit's formation isn't important - it's assumed that each of my models is hitting the enemy unit as a whole?
Yes. This also works in reverse as well so your super killing weapons can remain on the field until you run out of models that can die besides them. Your attacks and wounds hit the unit and then he takes the damage by choosing which models die first.
There is an importance of formation that if you somehow cause part of his unit to split apart further than 1” away from models he will have to choose which side of that split to keep and take all the rest as casualties.
40 minutes ago, PiotrW said:3. The range of my unit's melee weapons only determines which models from this unit can attack and nothing else?
Yes. The range also determines which unit a model can attack if you are fighting more than one and which models will actually be able to fight.
40 minutes ago, PiotrW said:4. If the formation of the defending unit isn't important, then there's really no point in moving the unit with models set up in a few ranks? Because it doesn't really protect them from anything?
The formation is important in trying to maximize the amount of models that can attack your enemy while minimizing the amount of models he can strike back with.
Example: he has his unit spread out in a line. Attacking from the front will give him more models to attack with then hitting him from the side where the line is thinnest. This allows the maximum gain for lower risk.
40 minutes ago, PiotrW said:When piling in, how close to the enemy unit do I move my models? Should it be base-to-base contact, wherever possible?
You can move as close as you want as long as you don’t move away from what is currently the closest enemy model. The general idea is the more packed in you are against the enemy unit the more models that can attack.
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It is for each unsaved wound suffered. When you take damage you suffer each wound one at a time until the model/unit dies so he can only potentially deal 7 wounds and then he dies. And the rest of the unsaved wounds are wasted as overkill and don’t do anything for either player.
Most people just tend to quick resolve things by doing all the damage simultaneously so it occasionally this misconception tends to spring up.
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3 hours ago, PiotrW said:
Also: if Player A attacks Player B's unit, does Player B have to retaliate with this unit, or can he attack with another one and leave this one doing nothing?
Yes and no. You do have to attack with all units in combat. You cannot chose to have a unit sit idle unless you can have no units in range to fight with it when you run out of other units that can fight. But You do get to pick which order you fight and where models direct their attacks. So player a can attack with unit a1 against unit b1 but then you can use b2 instead of retaliation with b1 but Unless a1 is wiped out b1 will have to fight eventually.
Umbral Spellportal & predatory endless spells
in Rules Questions
Posted
That is what I said....
It won’t hit any units while traveling through the portal. But on the way TO the portal.
It can pass over units on its way to end its move to trigger the spell portal. Before it reaches the 6” from the spell portal the pendulum still has 8” of movement and can still hit any potential units that are in the way to that point.