mmimzie

The heart of the issue is that your magic's usefulness fluctuates wildly in any situtation where you have a fixed list. This negatively impacts tournmanet players, new players, and people who just make one list. If you bring middling magic that aspect of your list has it's usefulness go from either SUPER impactful to none existent depending on what is across the table. If you look at any other aspect of the game the only things that come close are playing shooting army against IDK, but even then the shooting army can still roll dice and the movement phase gives you some counter play. before you shoot. For me there are a few fixes that fix makes this less depressing: 1. as others have said reducing the unbind range is good. It lets you play with your toys until stuff gets too close. 2. as has been said by me and other access to limited dispel scrolls as the primary tool for shutting down spells. 3. remove unbind as a feature. The more i read this thread the more i like the 3rd options. I think a wizards should be balanced more in a vacum of what spells they have access to and how many bonuses to cast they get. The counter balance of unbinding only really hurts average wizards. @KrispyXIV sorta mentions the main issue in his last line of his previous post.

Thankfully arcane tome makes these more accessible.

As has been said more or less above. There should be good spell fast not good unbinders. There should just be limited dispel scrolls armies can take such as the knight incantor who get it's once per game. But oppressive magic shut down is too much.

No experience here but they look strong. I think the other commentator was one of those folks that never liked eels too much. That said I think reevers certainly have a place now in 30man blocks. But they force you to really commit to them. They force your general which also forces 2 none eel battle line. So basicly you are buying a 2nd aspect of the storm that isn't the aspect of the storm. So it almost make you want to have 2 blocks of 30, and at that point the list is writing itself. Also think the second block of 30 lose milage as you can't all out attack both, and you may struggle getting all 60 in on the same target. Also is kind of normal with Deepkin you have magic vulnerability. That said I think the list has HUGE power projection and is a great in the shooting meta. Having the power to leverage shooting power, but the nature IDK defences against shooting. It's quite strong. How did. The turtle die? I feel 6 eels have the benefits of young all out attack all game letting you get hitting and wounding on 2s all game. It's that vs the one extra attack on extra prince?? And the ability to split your mortal wound discharge. That said 6 let's you start to leverage rally. I think the downside here is your likely spending an extra cp every turn. Which could get costly. You'll also lose attack until one dies as corherency will be a thing. So it might be like -3 attacks spear attacks and maybe -2 eels attacking. So definitely a damage hit. Only concern for us in the current meta is the same we usually have which is magic vulnerability killing key pieces.

Is that how this works if you take an extra spell lore enhancement all your wizards get an extra spell from the lore available to them?

These are problem with this stubbornness to stick with a physical product first mind set. If they embraced digital more a lot of these confusions and frustrations over rules clarity wouldn't be so bad if you knew they would patch it over the weekend it. But they are alittle afraid of being too aggressive with FAQs because they make the physical product less reliable to customers and hurts future sells or books.

Unique characters have always had access to lore spells. Just the verminlords don't get them. I sorta makes sense sense they get more powerful versions or lore spell on thier scrolls. *Shrug*

Yep and more or less confirms fleeing does not proc slain effects. Which means a lot of things. For one blue horrors and run over pinks (it'd be quite tough to have pinks in a unit with brims and blues in the current edition).

Oh that is quite true when you do battle shock you can pick who runs. Meaning you can just have blues run away rather than lose whole pinks. How are chaos knights?

Hmm this disappoints me. Buying a physical book really disappoints me. I'm abit of a hippy and like to reduce my environmental impact, have to buy some paper just so i can get a digital copy on my phone.... wow that's backwards? If anything is gonna stop me from getting back into the hobby it is this one single issue. I don't love them taking a reasonable priced option and bundling it with things i don't want. Like "free models" don't mean much to me when i know it cost them $5 or less to get it to me. Folks say it's a 20/30dollar value but anything above five bucks is artificial value. The forced multi app for many books is gonna really suck. Anyone that bought the book in app is kinda screwed??? Unless there is a fix for this??? (been away for a year so forgive me for missing things). Lastly, the implementation is really a bother?? It's not out yet right?? They said they'd make a 40k app when they reset the game. They said it was on the way soon, and it only just came out. I like playing out of the apps or at least ebooks having to wait an unknown time seem very poorly timed and miss managed. Even more so if it's a "free beta." I'm excited to try it when it does exist to see if it is worth the extra $3-4 a month

It seems war ringer+claw lord command ability are confirmed to stack. Sense the war ringer just command himself to apply his aura. So you can have 60 rats all with +1 attack, reroll 1s, with double death frenzy. Still very potent. Could potentially be more potent with curse, skaven brew, and other rat stimulants. Is attacking still compulsory? So if you charge Archy he has to kill all the rat and get himself slaughtered?

Basicly this. The banner can also be used here Ina weird way. If you kill all your pi k and then go under 30 horrors. You can then rally or heal your unit to bring back the banner, and if tin that turn you roll a battle shock and roll a 1 you may also use the banner to heal. This would work as long as you have less than mad size. The FAQ says that ability let's you go over max, it does not change the rule to allow the unit to ignore the no giving over max rule entirely. TLDR split works perfectly. But any other healing still has to be when you are under your units stating size.

It wouldn't be a warhammer set of rules if it didn't need clarification.

Explain what you mean by bomb? Unless bomb is doing something outside the realm of wounds. Either way wounds are allocated 1 at a time. So they die one model at a time. So the unit size can always stay within 30 models. Let's say you take 10 wounds.the first 3 wounds you give to a pink, a brim, and a blue. Then you give the next 5 to apink, 2 blues, and then 2 brims. Lastly you could just kill a pink and a blue. Leaving you under 30 models.

Okay so I've listed to a lot of youtubers recently as my best way to keep my foot in Warhammer while I'm busy. Sorry if this is said before, but I don't think it has been from my daily nosing about in here. In 3.0 I don't really see how pinks are "dead". Sure max unit size can't go beyond starting unless a rule change. However, the pinks can still take advantage of almost all of thier splitting. What you lose is the ability to get the unit size to explode quickly by killing lots of pinks first. That said wounds are still applied 1 at a time...meaning the pink dies per wound, then can immediately flow into blues and brims. This means in a 30man pink unit. When the first pink dies it splits into 1blue, and then 1 brim. After that you are no long maxed and each pink can die counting all 5 wounds. If you want to load up on blues you can just wait till 15 pinks die for instance and hold onto 14+ blues as your other pinks start dying. You never gave to go over 30 to gain just about all of your wounds. Maybe I'm missing something. This is very possible as I'm only casually following this conversation.

Honestly, you have the makings for a pretty good Host arcanum list. 1 more unit of screamers an maybe more screamers to summon wouldn't be too bad. But the enlighted and skyfires would love that 6" bump to really do some strong stuff You might also consider grabbing a fate master to buff up your enlightend and sky fires. shop list: 6 screams 1 fate masters that's not a big buy really and would make for a rather strong list. Edit: Mind you i didn't math much out, but that looks like a lot of stuff and i'm assuming it more or less 2k pts as is. List looks like (with no math): Fate Master Shaman on disc (can add the other shaman) 10xtzaangors 10xtzaandors ( can be 20) 3x screamers (can be 6 or 9) 2x6xenlightend on disc 2x3xsky fires Endless spells to taste Other Optional buys: blue scribes: Arcane Suggestion is the best spell in the lores, but it's tough to get off. So any casting bonuses or rerolls help a lot with this.

yep both have thier places, and as i pointed out i did say his spell is more consistent with command ability. If your bringing the LoC out of change host, its for the CA working to buff lots of daemon wizards like in a guild of summoners list. Or you want the flexability you can get with the sword. Kairos higher damage at top bracket is a trade off for more damage fall off and utility.

Both spells do average 6 mortal wounds. Kairos falls off more, but kairos gets a spawn. LoC is either a way better model to have in melee or about the same if you combine the magic and ranged profiles. As mind you the shooting attack is basicly a bonus spell with longer range (range+movement). Kairos Vs LoC is really this Spells ~= Loc 48/Kairos 52 -Loc gets 2 spells + rods (rod against a 4+ save is better than your average spell doing about 2.... damage. Signature Spell with command ability LoC is more consistant. -Kairs actualy gets 3 spells which Matters for summoning, and his spell can spawn a Chaos Spawn which has powerful utility. Signature spell CAN be harder to cast. Spell falls off sharper when taking damage. Melee ~= LoC50/Kairos 50 -LoC can be kitted to do really well in melee. Transumutation, agenda, and destiny dice can let you auto kill key targets at the end of the game. A very powerful peice and really strong for missions where the hero must take objectives. Letting you force a kill. REQUIRES SWORD. -KaIros otherwise they are pretty much about the same thing as making the LoC powerful takes that rod attack which lets you have that fake magic attack for above. Utility. Loc 60/Kairos 40 -LoC's command ability in our army is very strong. We have a lot of higher casting value spells that are borderline unrealistic with our casting steroids. It's just +1 top cast, but it hits all daemon units in range for all of thier spells the range is huge. Even for units of pinks that can get spread out, only 1 casting pink needs to be in range to get the bonus as 1 model counts as the wizard for the spell. LoC +gaunt summoner make arcane suggestion realistic all game which can be quite big for our army. And his own buff make his spell easier to cast and more reliable than kairos. -Kairos gets a force d6 which can be good for keeping his spell relative, or keeping some one a live. Also get for making key charges. Along side his Chaos Spawn which is pretty good, but often won't stop anything that really matters and will likely die the turn he is cast. This isn't always the case and he can come in clutch, but when i've messed with it, it's always felt useless. They both have thier place and are important in different list. WIth heavy wizard investment i like the LoC. I also like the LoC in guild. Sure you get more for the command ability later, but getting that first one out is important, and the bonus to cast on multiple units of pinks is big. Even with casting rerolls from blue scribes or host you that +1 one is more than clutch with a reroll, and the bonus armor save fits the LoC like a glove. Down side in host is Host is CP hungry as you don't have none CP protection for pinks. The rod/sword more than makes up for not having the 3rd spell as most spell do an average of 2 or 3 mortal wounds, but then you have to think that's before factoring the chance to fell the spell. Where as the rod just gives you that 2 damage or the sword can give you 6-9 from your destiny pool. He's gonna be in Eternal Conflag = Guild of Summoners> Host>>>>>everything else. Kairos is all about himself, and wants to slot into a list that is already full of steroid to help him out. He sucks with a 2nd LoC so i'd say he sucks in guild. You also don't want him in eternal conflag because you want change host there. You'll love him in Host though as the reroll cast goes a long way when given to him, but then you have to put the command trait and artifact on some one small and squishy to follow him around. Unlike the LoC though you aren't having the LoC chugging your CP. Kairos wants Host=blue scribes>>>>>>>>>everything else. They both are pretty good and have a lot of work to get thier points. Both snipe characters like crazy and cost an extra 70pts for the spell portal they will mandate. But one will force you down a path, as the LoC wants CP and people to buff. Where Kairos is plug and play, but gets a lot better with blue scribes or host. If you aren't sold on kairos don't use him. If you have a place in your army for the LoC to shine then put him in there. Both have well designed rules that make it a real choice.

Marauder's work with a word Lord and giving a unit +1 attack from 9"+ charges. Chaos knights also work well with destiny dice they compete with enlightened, but can do even better with good support. All can get an effective extra tend via arcane suggestion.

I'd say if any army could get away with out not having a heavy hitting CC unit it would be tzneetch. That said his list does lack a little punch. Outside of the screamers when fighting monsters.

I like the sword because it's a good dump for destiny dice. IT works nice with those 2s and 3s in our destiny dice pool that don't see a lot of love, and make the bird really strong on that alone as a tool that can go slice a character up. As @umpac said the rod is definitely a great tool for consistency as you don't have to charge to use the darn thing, but it's never gonna be a star. Basically the rod is a free auto cast arcane bolt against most targets. That said again the sword is good when you need it as it can become very consistent. Where the rod blends into your haze of arcane flame that your shooting accross the table. As above my LoC isn't usualy ever in combat, but i take the sword because i like a tool for when i need it, and i find those moments are more important than a few damage here and there. For instance finishing off stuff like bonedaddy catapults, capitolizing on a hole i made toward a slann, or other key game swinging moments. The LoC is near 400 pts so you i feel giving it a tool that lets you make it do work is great. edit: sword also works well if you get a wizard to bring the spell arcane transformation. Letting the bird get 3 attacks or even 4 attacks with the scheme so you can burn all your destiny dice to go crazy on one target. It's just nice to have that in your pocket and make your LoC more spooky than he has any right to be. Not unrealisticly you can get 3 (some times 4) auto hitting auto wounding -2rend 3 damage attacks. I pulled this out of my but once and it felt very great as a game winning moment.

Along with reroll on cast from the blue scribes. Which is enough to make your spells quite consistent. You only need 9 or 10 spells to get the Lord of change out consistently between destiny dices and casting bonus you can get access to.

It's not super easy to pull off as the ranges are all quite limited but the power level is through the roof if you get the spell.

Gaunt summoner is the best faster or one of the best spells in the book. Arcane suggestion. It needs an 8 with a LoC around they can catch the +1 to cast buff. Guild of summoners would let the model pink up a second boost to casting. Making that spell realisticly castable. -1 to hit and -1 to wound is really strong.

I was of the opinion that the banshee endless spell eat faq also hits the LoC, but I guess they are worded differently. The skaven list I've been running since the book came out have been double death frenzy clan rats getting +1 attack rerolling 1s. They hit very hard and can trade with gotrek. With bells hanging out in the swarm this one I play more causually but the list is great. Yeah just checked when I got home. Thanks for the correction.