mmimzie

Hmm fair enough. Think it would be worth to hit them with levitate so they can definitly get everyone in?? 3.0 fly rules seem abit goofy, as you seem to completely ignore terrain unless you start or end on it otherwise you have to measure at an angle.

Yeah I guess that's fair. It really depends on how you use the pile in. To me the pile in is about giving them consistent charge range and activation protection, but I see how you use it to get more models in. Though I think getting them all in make them super vulnerable to anything near by and make them afraid of battle shock. Where units of 20 let the zombies screen each other and 20 can get most stuff done. You are right about the endless legion. Being less effective 20 combat can really do stuff where as the 10 are just gonna grab objectives. That said the one that combat usually I'd use that way anyway because the unit combat always feel kind of clunky, out of position, to slow, or too vulnerable. Lastly 20 zombies can clap a unit of blood knights with 2 buffs, where as 40 is far and way overkill. But I think if you want the best chance of bringing something like archaeon down you want that 40block. Also the 40 block has a realistic chance of taking a hit and recovering.

They are still running just at a set pace. It's like the command ability that has you add 6" to move rather than rolling. You might consider giving this to the vengorian lord so he can buff the vamp lord on zombie dragon. It also free up the VLoDZ to not have to be central to your army and let's him make safer or more strategic charges I might be leaning toward units of 20. 20 models is the max you'll ever get fighting most targets, and it protects you from battle shock and unleash hell. It also let's you play alittle cagey and be more flexible.

I think zombies can (and honestly always could) kill almost anything save for maybe archaeon just because he's to quick to pin down. Dance+2 attack (pick your favor sources: vampire lord, blood seek palaquiin, big generic with impetus, Radukar, and maybe some more??) that's 120 attacks, on 6's doing mortal wounds getting you about 20 mortal wounds. Now you could get more attack bonuses and make it even more stupid, but you start to cut into zombies and list effectiveness. The real benefit and also downside (with 3.0) is being able to get to them to pile in 6" letting them protect themselves from thier weakness which has been getting activated on first. It also make them rather speedy getting to run and fight potentially in the same turn, at a 19" threat range you can garentee. Downside is redeploy can mess this up quite baddly.

Note as I understand all spell are cast before picking targets. For instance tzneetch armies use this to cast all thier spells for summoning points at the top of turn 1. Despite not being in range It is wise to not tell your opponent your spell targets so they will always think the worst when considering unbinding it.

The thing i don't love about this is that it works so poorly for activations. You gotta go with the VLoZD first to get full use out of the buff which means your blood knight will need to be cagey on who the engage and how to not lose a few knight before you fight. Another quill in the VLoZD's favor in that he can fight at full strength all game in the current edition. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have a side model with the command trait that can tea up the buff. One where you can soft targets and they can be in a more central location to your knights and VLoZD. Also generally 10 models blood knights will struggle to hit the same target 1 VLoZD will. Now we are alittle moving away from the hit em hard strats, but we do also want to kill what we hit. Take multiple turns to clear 10-20 models with BKs is not ideal. @Liquidsteel It's okay my skaven is all pretty mag nuts too with like 200 clan rats?? all on magnetic movement trays. You are likely right with grave guard, which is probably why i always stick with skeletons, zombies, and clan rats where i can play with the horde models like a blob, and count models loosely where i can ignore the fringe attacks.

I think this is why there is usefulness in the big heavy models such as VLoZD, Manfred, etc. The blood knights when hit with ranged attacks and mortals don't have a way to recover when they drop models, while the big monster heros can heal themselves up in different ways as long as they can cling onto a few wounds. I'd also go so far as to say i'd lean more in favor of a consistent VLoZD or vengorion lord with amulet and a good command ability like rousing command or unholy impetus vs trying to make the model more killy. This also make me alittle uncomfortable with Manfred and some of the other special characters that I think are very vulnerable to strong 1 phase armies like tzneetch and KO that can take out heros like him in a turn. Where as something like the amulet can go a long way on a VLoZD Not saying any of these are suddenly trash, but just it's good to know each model's weakness when building out a list. Are you using movement trays as well. I saw you speak of magnets?? I also think this why the game really badly needs to move back to a rank style combat system or a 40k style attack system with a rank component. One that is quick and balanceable. Clumping modeling really close up together is a recipe for damaged models and wasted time. But having played skaven, horde armies can take a while, but as of current instead of taking effectiency out of your list, just be less efficient with your pile in where its not vital. Just shove the model in the general area and keep them on trays unless. When I mathed out a few skaven games it ended up being more effective than a lower model count army, mainly because i could go big where it mattered. All of the comments taken into consideration i think i'd go with a list like this inspired a bit by @Kaizennus It focuses on 120 deadwalkers (the list swaps out for skeletons easily, and it could go half and half as per preference). I went dead walkers because the list allows for a 2nd necromancer which is a key buff peace in my mind. Double battle reginment. Most importantly 2.5 Mortis engines! I think this sort of list would give the blood knight list a very hard time. A necromancer can be dropped for a wight king on foot and a dead walker unit can become 30 skeletons. Personally i don't like too many more command abilities. Zombies i like because they in sort of can retreat and recharge, and get a little better when they do so because they can be outside of 3 before they do thier attacks. Vykros makes dance more reliable and with +2 to cast you should get it off with a decently high cast. potentially throwing out 5d3 mortal wounds to multiple units seems very strong, and i've seen a number of little here list that would shutter at the thought. Having used lightning vortex, and played a multiple mortis engine list back during generals hand book 1. It can be a huge tide turner and in the long whole win games. I even think the mortis engine pose a huge threat to armies like KO and armies now in AoS 3.0 where we have more MSU. Also the threat of unless hell from a Mortis engine i think is no joke. edit: There is a good argument for hunters in the heartland to protect the zombies. IF that's the case i'd also take warlord, line breaker, and heartland

There actually is kind of a reason. The vampire take on an aspect of the bat. If you look I'm images they have pointed ears, and so all of them are all some degree of ware at, and apparently if you ware anything you get bigger in human consciousness. In some art they even have slightly bat like noses.

@swarmofseals I agree with most oh what you have here. The only thing i'd say is hit'em hard will still matter if you can kill archaeon or go'trek. One benefit VLoZD and i guess vhordrai have have is that they over the beast is that they are also monsters and can use the monster actions. For rousing command the coven throne isn't to bad, as it can hit more targets, not being to concerned with getting itself stuck into combat for that turn, and more just projecting the buff from the best spot. Having played skaven with lots of similar buffs, if you set it up right you can very easily get all your units in on the buff. With 4 or 5 units buffed and it's command ability (stacking quite well with the the rousing command increase the buffs .WOR as you call it.) I also think the bloodseeker has some value. bringing a strong buff like unholy impetus on the warscroll, This can be used in conjunction with rousing command. Also it's ranged attack put you in a place where you want to put the model some where quite central. I think the idea of the two ghost ships is the most effective first turn possible. Anywho mostly agree just adding my two cents.

Howdy all would love help with penning a list to paint toward for slowing jump back into the hobby. I have two list, and am looking for some might, magic, and speed. Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords - Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty - Grand Strategy: - Triumphs: LEADERS Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) - Deathlance - Artefact: Sangsyron Spell: Flaming weapon Coven Throne (310) General - Command Trait: Pack Alpha Spell: Amarannthine Orb Vengorian Lord (280) Spell: Amethystine Pinions Bloodseeker Palanquin (290) Spell UNITS 10 x Dire Wolves (135) 10 x Dire Wolves (135) 10 x Dire Wolves (135) BEHEMOTHS Mortis Engine (200) 1920/2000 The idea with this list is getting the reroll to cast and +1 to cast, along side a lot of poke damage to remove key target. With 2 hammers in the vamp lord and vegorian lord. 80 free points, could take a corpse cart or endless spells. Cogs? Between all out attack, Finest hour, and coven throne command ability should keep up lots of +1 to hit/wound/save on the big hitter vampires? Knight List: LEADERS Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435) -- Deathlance General - Command Trait: Rousing Commander Vengorian Lord (280) - Artefact: Sword of the Red Seneschals - Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions Bloodseeker Palanquin (290) UNITS 5 x Blood Knights (195) 5 x Blood Knights (195) 5 x Blood Knights (195) 5 x Blood Knights (195) BEHEMOTHS Mortis Engine (200) 1985/2000 just damage sword is on vengoriun to beaf up the vamplord and knights to do real damage?? Anywho thoughts on either are welcome.

Sorry if this was asked, but can a mortis engines unleash (actual) hell? and still hit everyone??

Honestly with them pumping out monsters all year i'm hoping for a kraken model.

Competive? 100% cavalry?? Deepkin

I like this actualy. It's pretty cool making a list that does a thing well. Faction specific grand strat would also rock. Where you have this points foundation, and some armies might hard counter this by being able to stop what you think you can do best, but for the most part you have a secure safe part of your strategy.

I agree with most of @Enoby's summary of some of the issues. I think a lot of it is pushing monsters being a strong them, and i think this is fine and kind of fun for a year. Like a season of the beast. That said it makes some of those hero models really stupid and just unfun, and so much some it pushes some of the cool monsters out of the space. I think my 3e or well 4e wish list would be: Make low investment wizards worth it and mid tier wizards worth taking "Aspect of the sea" has been dead on arival for a while, i think even at 200pts you wouldn't take it to tournament because it'd just get shut out. Reduce bloat. I think keeping the game simple is the best way to go. I think it's the only reason AoS had the huge growth it did when the first GHB dropped. Just like 5e DnD showed all of nerd gaming, simpler rule sets are more inviting. Also i like winning game based on superior tactics, not on remembering page 33, subsection 3, paragraph 2, line 2. I'm a gamer not a lawyer.

I think what makes it dumb is the unbind preasure. If you oppents have any unbinds most of our magic starts to suck really fast as a lot of it is kinda close range. Worse with a 30" unbind range. That said i do think the aspect of the sea spell is quite good -1 to hit and bravery is quite strong. That -1 bravery gets a bit stronger when you are dampening some unit's ability to heal.

I'd say lottan is not a nessary component in Dom han with tidecaster general where I'd argue the flipped tides is more useful as the run shoot because very vital to reavers. I think the best list is reavers and eels. As getting access to all the tool will make you effect against most targets. The shooting power projection is quite big, and the access to defense unleash hell combine with something like morraar shock can do a lot to make getting charged feel quite safe. Plus aspect of the storm and turtle are net just for the reavers the eels and other units also benefit from thier buffs. From there it gives you more good targets for all out attack in more phases. I do think garrisoning the boat is a powerful option. A terrain piece we can place is quite strong when we can load it up with pepper.

I'm thinking of jumping back into the game and putting together a list to build and paint toward. @Siorra and @Sonnenspeer i was actrualy thinking of a list just like this i like the large mix of units you get access to in this. Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (330) Akhelian King (230) - General - Bladed Polearm Isharann Tidecaster (105) UNITS 20 x Namarti Reavers (230) 3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155) 3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155) 6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390) BEHEMOTHS Akhelian Leviadon (380) 1975 I was wondering how reasonable this looks?? I think it packs a lot of punch in different areas of the game. I don't yet know grand stratagems and artifact i want to use for this. Or even command traits that would be good. So any help would rock. I wish i should get an aspect of the sea in there. I think he kinda sucks, but i like big models LMAO!! Plus the +3 bravery lets you ignore battle shock on the eels for hte most part, and also lets the aspects auto heal ever turn with out fail. Plus i like the magic protection and preasure. Thinking maybe arcane tome on the storm for flaming weapon. Could drop the spear eels for 3 ishlaen to sneak in the aspect of the sea, but wonder if i'd lack to much on punch?? Edit: or replace the morrsarr with ishlaen and some sharks. They'd make a decent target for king buff?

HAving worked at a GW and selling both game at different times. AoS being overly complex is bad for it's bottom line. An easy to understand set of rules helps get new customers and help retain them for longer. Aside from that i think i personally prefer a less complicated rule set that rewards players for playing the game and not lawyering up on the rules. Have played warhammer 40k 7th(??? the one with all the special rules and such), i've find it freeing to win based on smart tactics rather than smart application of section 7 article 3. paragraph 4 line 3. I think it's not as complicated as the one 40K edition or any of the old editions, but i'd say this is as complicated as i'd care for the game to be, and some areas it could be stream lined.

Howdy!! I wanted to ask about knight of the empty throne as I'm slowly convincing myself i might jump back into to playing. For knights of the empty throne they varangaurd can only use relics and command abilities from thier own pool?? or can they use the universal artifacts and command traits as well?

And my point is that you can get this with a hero with a cp with no chance Eto counter. Infact you don't even need a hero to get hat +1 save. Armies fan give +1 save with out depending any additional resources and just having a model on the table. Deepkin gives most of thier army +1 save with 1 model, and no counter play for shooting. +1 save has high impact, but in the scheme of the game is not impactful because +1 save is everywhere. Mystic shield however is the only one that can be so easily countered and it's power varus depending on what army you play against and what wizards you bring. In the cost of the game +1 save is a low cost effect. Basicly the point is spells do things other things in the game do, but those other sources aren't so easily shut down for similar price per effect.

I think in completive team tournaments don't necessarily fix the issue as list can just skew harder. Kroak and teclis make a good team.

I don't wanna play team games they are too slow for me or don't let me bring enough of my own models. I like 1 on 1 and doing my own jam. I also like playing casually with my 1 list per faction I painted up. Also again if you play teams and both of you only wanna being like 1 wizard each you are still in the famine category. Wizards should be internally balanced as a package. The 3rd party of your opponent as a counter balance makes wizards impossible to balance in away to make wizards fun. I say get rid of unbinding, maybe make once per game spell scrolls available to every army as a 1 of. If you compare wizards to other abilities users or command ability havers. Wizards suck unless they are OP wizards. Spells do very low damage per points and few have massive impact such as the above StD teleport reference, and even then they get quite tough to cast. Where as the gnaw bomb from skaven is super powerful and can't be dispelled. You have spells that do the same effect as command abilities, but the spell needs a cast roll and needs to make it through unbind such as pile in and attack twice, or +1 attack buffs. So for wizards to be worth it in my mind they already have a chance to fail on thier own, giving an undeterminable chance to fail against any enemy army is a bit much, and throughs any sense of balance out the window. Anywho I'm not trying to convince you. I'm saying how I feel on the matter. For me spells and wizards should be balances on thier own. This would make wizard reliability based on thier casting values, ranges, durability, mobility, casting power, and points. It will also make the game faster and easier to pick up and learn.

I think you can balance it just fine with points, range, casting values, and casting bonus. Unbind just means if you don't bring any form of unbind he just wrecks your list. Archaeon is super powerful and can tear through list, and there are viable play styles where you build list to counter him or not counter him currently he and still win against his army. You don't need to counter magic to balance it because that makes magic very feast or famine. Just balance magic on its own. Make wizards that great just wizards who cast spells easily and/or have access to powerful spells. Let us counter it with tools we already counter things with: kill it, range, ignore it. Making unbinding a thing will always make middle tier wizards or just taking a one off wizards for one spell useless in the scheme of only making one list, tournaments, and casual play.

I mean you make the point there at the end. WIth no unbinds spells and wizards become easier to balance. By changing the power of spells, thier castability, and who has access to what you have more than enough handles to balance magic. Magic loses all sense of balance or fairness when unbinding enters the picture and different armies have vastly different access to ways to stop said magic. Where spaming cheap wizards against an army that has no unbinds or opted not to bring them those cheap wizards are power houses and rule the game, and on the other hand those wizards are useless against armies that have the means to shut it down. Unbinding creates this feast or famine land scape, where as just balancing spells on the spells themselves and the wizards who can cast them is a more realistic. Cheap utility spells that are +1 to hit on one unit could be like 5+ and powerful spells could be 9+. I think it speeds up the game and makes all wizards interesting. @Ragest I'd say you're still in the boat where taking 1 necromancer is many cases useless under in the current state of the game, where even with you changes he'll only get any decent spell off like 50% of the time or less.