Beliman

Kharadrons Overlords. Fu%$ Aelves

The battlebox has 10 hearthguard or aurics hearthguard (same kit, alternative builds). Btw, that "new" hero can be used as a runesmitter too (same cape)!

Oops, sorry. In my defense, it's still a good argument.

I don't think so. There are some armies that can't rely on their magic or their lore is not powerful enough. Other armies (as my beloved KOs), the Tome is just another tool (Duardin mage or Hashut follower?).

KO 💗 Tau Weapons?

I think that's exactly what happens in AoS. Only bodycount, buff-stacking (for a lot of attacks) and their base size are the main selling points for Horde. It could be a lot worst, like giving some type of mechanic to monsters to take objective... mmm... ouch! Another thing to take in mind is that AoS armies are completely diferent. There are armies with only 3 troops, others without any monsters, others without any cavalry or artillery, others with just 1 battleline, etc... It's not easy to write core-rules for all of them.

I can't talk for others, but that's not true for me. I don't need an inmortal 20 wounds giant-behemoth with 3+/5++ that heals 3D6 every turn. But I still want more survivable units and heroes: I want my 5 wounds heroe, veteran of thousand battles (that's not true, but tssssh!! people don't know that...) to challenge an evil battlemage (yeah, something about taxes and aether-gold) on the last turn. But believe me, that's one of the most dificult things to accomplish in the entire game!! Even if this arguments seems to be superficially the same, each player has their own opinion that may be slightly diferent.

I think that AoS had a crazy evolution this last 6 years. It started as a FOMO project with small-factions (Fyreslayers, IJ, etc...) and perma-factions (SCE, Khorne, etc...). First Great Purge. At some point, it shifted to a more tradition style of unique factions. Segond Great Purge. But it was a bit too much trying to support all this Micro-factions and so... ...they tried to merge them (Orruks, Ogres, etc...). As always, nobody has infinite manpower/production. That means that GW will use diferent strategies to support their own armies: Sometimes, a battleforce of old units (usually on christmas), sometimes a new random Heroe (maggotkin, etc...), and sometimes a battlebox (skavens vs Fec, KOs vs Tzeentch, etc...). If you are lucky enough, maybe even a second wave (Lumineth, SCE, etc...), that's sadly reserved for an small number of factions... But the main support will come from Start Collectings and the new Vanguard Box. New editions can bring a completely new range of miniatures (first SCE, Nighthaunts or Kruleboyz) or an upgrade of an old ones (Necrons, Khorne, SCE, Space Marines) with temporal boxes or three new starter sets. Of course, the most critical moment (appart from new edition armies) is when a new faction is introduced, and that means a new strategy: a lot of new kits or maybe anew starter box. I'm not sure what's the next step after merging armies (some people talk about Dwarfs soup book and S2D+goats), but it's clear that AoS will shift again. And I'm pretty sure that a new type of support (aka, how they are going to sell their products) will come at some point, but I'm not sure what it will be.

I can't help because I'm playing more Strength vs Tougnhess games for a personal project than 3.0 (I should stop doing that, whatever...) With 750 points armies, I suppose that you will have a lot more room to Fly High. Main issue is AoD is really annoying with low points games and you will need more volum of shoots or high rend to bypass that. I would take List 2 just because I love thunderers and frigattes, no idea if it's good or bad but it's awesome XD Btw, the next Fyreslayers vs Idoneth Battlebox has 10 Aurics/HGB, 10 Vulkites and 1 Flamekeeper: It seems that this box is awesome for Barak-Thryng lists. With one Flamekeeper Wannabe-smitter and 10 HGB, it's perfect to run our Tunnel-squad of doom!

Really good point. Nobody wants to deal with 7th edition Knights (40k) again. The main reason for that to happens is because the game has relatively high values for Toughness (or AV) and armies doesn't have enough Strength to deal with them. Ex.: Half the units in the whole game are S3 profiles but some monsters/god-like units are T9. In other words, half the units in the game can only wound this monsters on a roll of 6. If for whatever reason a S10 profile is not common enough for ALL armies, that means that one good alpha strike that remove exactly that S10 unit can turn the game in to something teddious to play. I've tried lowering max-values so the diference between lower and higher tier units are not big enough to have the same problems (tier names are from War30k). Example: VEQ: Vermin Equivalent. Goblins/skavens/gnoblars/nurglings/skinks/etc... S2/ T2 HEQ: Human Equivalent. Humans/elfs/dwarfs/mortals/ goats/etc.. S3/ T3 LEQ: Liberator Equivalent. Liberators/Chaos Warriors/Ogres/Saurus/etc... S4/ T4 PEQ: Paladin Equilvalent. Anihilators, Paladins, Varanguard, Trolls, etc... S5/ T5 BEQ: Behemoth/Monster Equivalent. Ironclad, Archaon, Allarielle, etc... S6/ T6 VEQ and HEQ are going to wound BEQ units on a roll of 6. But anything that gives +1 to Strength (charge bonus, CAs, Strength in numbers, Two-handed Weapons/special weapons, etc...) to HEQ will improve a lot their wound rolls: wounding LEQ on a rolls of 4+ and BEQ on a rolls of 5+. It worked and it was fun to play with, but imho, it had some problems too. With this system, only VEQ, HEQ and LEQ are the ones that completely use STR buffs. HEQ units with two-handed weapons (S4) can reach S5 with just one buff. Wounding LEQ on rolls of 3, having double/triple the models (and attacks) with small bases. In other words HEQ are better than LEQ unless I tweak their profiles (hit rolls and rend/damage). Another thing that I've tried is changing some Special Weapon profiles (Ex.: Grand Weapons/ Aethercannons/ etc...) with +1 STR and +1 rend and then changing some basic bonus like charge (Ex.: remove mw on a charge for a bonus to hit, STR or rend). The game had much more lethality just by using mounted units (yep, I've used prosecutors!) or monsters with more than 8" movement (run+charge was really crazy). But it felt good to use some chaff to block charges. Edit: With coherency rules, +1 atk on charge is a big buff for LEQ/PEQ units. They can remove lower tier units stacking charge + any other rend, dmg or hit roll buffs.

I've got really excites after reading this. Maybe a new battlebox wirh OSB vs KO with 2-3 new units as a second wave? It could just be a hero, but lDK and Fyrestunties already got hit by that...

For me, to have some fun.

I hope Fyreslayers have more luck than KOs. Our Balloon-mastger helped with some battlelines but it did nothing to fix all KO issues (like extremely long pew-pew-pew phase, same uninteractive gameplay as ever, etc...).

Not sure if it count but... Magmic Battleforge: And Endless Spells Prayers:

After some tests dones (using @PJetski link, 40k profiles and some tweaks here and there), I think that S vs T is just another part of the puzzle: Some God-like units become extremely good unless they have rare profiles for such units (strength 3, low number of attacks, low dmg, 4+ thoughness, etc...). Ranged units or specialist ranged units (artillery) become a bit weird with only S vs T values. They need some tweaks to become relevant, or need a direct nerf to not be obnoxious (btw, I like X2 S vs monsters). Units that have +1 wound (+1Str?) become really powerful vs some other units. Mainly S6 attacks that wound on a 2+ rolls vs 50% of all the units in the game. It can get a lot worst with... ... units that have high number of attacks or high damage (or a mix of both). There are a lot of mechanics that contradict S vs T. Mortal Wounds on hit are one of the the most powerful tools that bypass this mechanic (and there are A LOT of MW on hit, being a KO, it was a surprise to see how many are there...). Rend needs to be tweaked for some profiles, and Imho, I think high dmg profiles too. Specialist attacks with low number of attacks need a lot better Strength. Ex.: 1 attack with S6 that has a bonus dmg for Monsters is just meh with all monsters being T6 or better... Btw, some units become a lot better with S vs T: Small Monsters like Cygors & Ghorgon become really good with T6 or crazy with T7. That means that only elite units like Retributors or charging units with +1Str can wound them on a roll of 4+ (or better) even if they have a really meh save (5+). Units with T5 , multi-wound, multi-model and good save are really, really powerful. Units with bonus to charge (+1 to wound) or some stacking buffs are crazy good if they can hit S6 or S8. If you deny the charge, they become really diferent (and that's awesome to play with and against them!). High save, High Toughness units that can heal... shouldn't be allowed. Unless there are a lot of S8 sources for cheap units. I'm still testing a lot more but it's really interesting (and refreshing) to play with this kind of stuff. It's easy to tweak some numbers and restart match to see how diferent some units can become.

That's my only issue with the whole roster of Kruleboyz. We have an small roster of miniatures that don't have any synergy or are just part of a wombo-combo to put some high mw-numbers (shaman/ sludgeraker). Nothing inbetween. Being just 1/4 of an army doesn't help. We can't even play with one of our unique themes...

Maybe. But that post was 2 years old. There are a lot of other new members in this forum, and people had enough time to play a lot other games like warcry or 9th to see how S vs T work. Btw, it's just another thing to tall about.

With a new battlebox and nothing more, there is a bit of hope that GW reveals the nexr two battletomes for 2022.

No, you don't need to talk about that if you don't want. Nobody will force you to write here!!! Btw, this post will not change anything,. It's just to have some fun talking about our favorite and expensive hobby, and maybe even learn something new!! That's a really good question. I was one of the dudes that didn't want anything to do with SvsT, but after 3.0 and reading Orruks and SCE warscrolls, I'm thinking again and again about exactly the same thing: Dual-wielding Liberators. Why someone want to use them over sword+board? Not sure, but maybe S vs T (even some profile tweaks) could be the answer. Having a 110 p battleline unite that can threaten 20 Goblins, Zombies or even Orruks will change the persepctive of just having a "hammer" unit to do all the work. I don't know how this could be accomplished, but it could help other similar units like Prosecutors. Btw, @PJetski is doing an awesome work (just read SCE discussion)!! I'm going to use your S and T list to just see what happens.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays to everybody! Let's open a annual chat: after the first 3.0 tomes, and looking at other games (even GW ones), what do you think about another layer of complexity? I’m talking again about Strength vs Toughness/ Strength vs Resistance. The utility of this mechanic is clear, make all units a bit more different and unique just using their own stats/profiles. For a full analysis, @Enoby made an awesome job a few years ago (worth a read, believe me): So, what do you think about something like this?

I think that people are comparing 1:1 abilities and combos from completely diferent armies with just a competitive mind to judge. I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do.

Nothing for us in the balance update. We still have a lot of interactions that are not clear how they should be played/solved: When can we disembark? Our skyvessels can shoot after using Fly High in melee range because we have Disengage (FAQ), but what happens when other units retreat using other teleports and don't have any ability like Disengage (wardens, riggers, units from other armies...)? Do units in garrison count as being in the battlefield for abilities that "pick a unit on the battlefield" instead of range/LoS? How can an ability that "remove units from the battlefield" be solved if the target unit is not in the battlefield (garrisons)? Units inside a skyvessel have +1save/-1 to be hit (no cover), what happens to this units if the skyvessel is on a terrain feature that gives cover?

Voted for Sigvald. He is magnificent!

But how do we know that Gotrek is not OP? I mean, data shows only a fragment of the whole picture: KOs are doing right (not the best, not the worst armies). A few 5-0, some 4-1, but 80% of this lists had a Gotrek. The other lists that don't have Gotrek are struggling a lot more, but the data is so small that the numbers are just anecdotes. The thing is, KOs have good numbers in competitive and Gotrek will not take so many 5-0 spots. That's the result that I can see for so many other armies that are using/abusing Gotrek. Some of this armies can't even kill a Giant by themself and Gotrek allows exactly that, giving a tool (in other words, A LOT OF DAMAGE) to armies that are in need of update, but data will say otherwise.

Bloodstalkers, Salamanders and Sentinels had a point increase (maybe not big enough but it's not better than before) and Unleash Hell is not as strong as pre-patch unleash. Maybe not what people wanted, but it's still a nerf to ranged (to hit rolls) mortal wounds.