2k mixed ogor

[shadowgra]

hello, i'm recently interested in ogors, not only because i have an unpainted stonehorn (frostlord), but also because i really like ogres in general and in particular gutbusters.

so i am trying to make a competitive list (or that can at least compete with good lists, even if it doesn't win).

then i was thinking about:

Leaders

Frostlord on Stonehorn, general, bellowing tyrant,  Battlebrew (460)

Butcher, stump blades and cauldron (140)

Butcher, stump blades and cauldron (140)

Battleline

3 ogors (120)

2*6 ogors (480)

Units

6 Mournfangs, big weapons, command group (600)

 

mournfangs are a great target for bellowing tyrant and +1 from the butchers, that also help the list against magic heavy lists. 6 mournfang can do really tons of damage while still being more mobile than ironguts. butchers can still do quite a bit of damage, coupled with stonehorn and mournfangs the mortal damage output is really good. 15 bulls can dish out tons of damage on units with low armor and tank kinda well. 

i know, low model count, but hey what can u do when u play ogors... thanks for reading!

 

[Salarath]

Hi, good looking list with some nice stuff in it, I take it you only want to play ogres, rather than have cheaper battleine? I don't think you want the frostlord as your general because he will be forced to baby sit the other units. I would definitely try to include a unit of ironguts as they are amazing with ogres because of their 'down to the ironguts' rule. 4 mournfang (or even 2 packs of 2) is also pretty good? You can get away with smaller units of ogors as they aren't that powerful compared to ironguts/mournfang/stonehorn. My old ogre list (before I caved and did mixed destruction) was:

frostlord on stonehorn (battle brew)

butcher (talisman of protection, general, bellowing tyrant)

butcher

3 ogors (2 hand weapons)

3 ogors (2 hand weapons)

3 ogors (2 hand weapons)

4 mournfang (gargant hackers)

6 ironguts

1 gorger

 

 

[shadowgra]

I think that 3 ogors deal pretty good damage, even higher than ironguts point per point. For 3 guts u can field almost 6 ogors, which, even if they lack rend, they have a bunch of rerolls that increase damage output by a lot.

The unit of 6 mournfangs is there because with 2" range it can attack from 2 ranks and also can be a good tanking unit that can stretchen a line. Also it is more easily buffable by stonehorn and butchers (it can keep the speed of the stonehorn, while butcher cannot keep their speed and ofc not give them bellowing tyrant).

In the end, in ur list u have 2 artefacts, is it possible without a battalion?

[Salarath]

you're right of course, the butcher shouldn't have a talisman, oops!

I do think Ironguts are great though-they definitely do more than plain ogors and are more survivable. One round of 'down to the ironguts' will show you exactly what I mean! I do like the idea of a big unit of mournfangs but I personally wouldn't want them running around with the stonehorn, you will want to split your force to deal with multiple threats. Anyway, try your list and find out

[shadowgra]

since i don't have any model and want to do ogres as next army, once finished my nurgle force (almost complete, but with proxy i am ok) i prefer to have already a fully planned list (which have to include at least one stonehorn since i have it and is strong). so don't be afraid of throwing out ideas and such.

i told u i am not sure about the ironguts because i read another discussion in which a lot of people rated them poorly as a unit. has that changed? is maybe the tyrant a good choice? has some high damage. imho butcher is absolute nuts, just as stonehorn.

what do u all think?

[shadowgra]

ok so, after thinking about it a bit, doing some maths and watching some videos, i find mournfang damage pretty unreliable. Since i hate unreliable sources of damage, i have opted for a different list, there it is:

1000

Tyrant, battlebrew (160), gutgorger

Butcher, cauldron and stump blades (140), general, bellowing tyrant

2*3 Ogors, double hand weapons (240)

6 maneaters (440), pistols and shurikens

Tot 980 points

This list has the tyrant, along with everything else rushing towards the enemy, while butcher stays near maneaters to buff the with bellowing and healing them. I will almost never cast everything else than mystic shield, maneaters need that +1 save. Maneaters are far more interesting than ironguts imho, 1 less potential damage exchanged for ranged damage (pretty good ranged actually, 6 2+/3+/-1/d3) and more reliable cc damage. Also they have that setup versatility that i love.

 

2000 points

Frostlord on stonehorn, battlebrew (460)

Butcher (140), cauldron and stump blades, general, bellowing tyrant

Another butcher (140)

6 ogors (240)

2*3 ogors (240)

9 maneaters (660)

1 gorger

1 gorger

2000 points

In this list instead i have a 9 maneaters squad, which can output almost 30 wounds to a 4+ in close combat, and also a bit more than 8 wounds from shooting.

Battleline is still kind of limited, one unit of 6 ogors can be buffed by butchers in case maneaters are already buffed. 

2 gorgers are fom later objective contesting and warmachine and bad equipped hero hunting.

I really like 2 butchers, but maybe 3 more ogors are better? Dunno, i think double prayer+ mystic shield and maw is worth it, expecially against non magic armies.

Although i could remove one to include a battle standard bearer, which helps with damage output and with battleshocks. Note that on stonehorn it works on 5+ on all his attacks, helping to dish out tons of mortal wounds.

Finally the frostlord isn't the general, he will attract much fire power even if it isn't and i don't lose inspiring presence to put on maneaters. He tho has battlebrew which makes him more than a threat.

Better than the previous one? 

[Solaris]

Interesting lists. In the 1000 points version, I see absolutely no reason to make the Butcher general instead of the Tyrant - the only thing it accomplishes is putting a targeton his head and giving you less options in terms of which command abilities you use. The 12" setup distance is rather crippling for Gorgers, however they do bring interesting tactical options to the army and are affordable at 60 pts. I definitely agree that Maneaters are more interesting than Ironguts, since they bring both higher damage, some shooting and the Been there, done that ability to the table. I would suggest trying to fit a Tyrant into the 2k list as well, and making him your general. You'll the just use his command ability on the Maneaters turn 1, and not have to worry about battleshock for the rest of the game. Then you can use IP on the 6 man Ogor unit from that point forward, and have them immune also.

[shadowgra]

My worry with the tyrant is that without the battlebrew (i can't give it away on the stonehorn, is too good) loses a lot of effectiveness in combat, expecially with gutgorger. At this point i could field one but instead of what? I really think that a butcher o a bsb bring more to the army than the tyrant imho.

Have to agree on the 1k list, although i had done this because as such low points tyrant will already be a primary target for the enemy, so maybe making an enemy choose between tyrant and butcher would have led to difficult choices and maybe mistakes. Probably is just stupid.

[Kessler]

I have tried both maneaters and ironguts, for me it seems that ironguts' better save and damage 3 can make them better unit than maneaters. There are two conditions for that.

Maneaters seem to be better in small 3 model units. Their to hit ratio is much better, more attacks, missile attack and additional abilities make them really good. If you add Golgfag to the army, they are even better. But their save 5+ means they are very vulnerable.

Ironguts must be in units of 6, otherwise their 4+ to hit makes them very unreliable. But add +1 to hit with Bellowing Tyrant, then their damage output is great. And their better save is so important - otherwise whole your army has 5+ Save (exluding Stonehorn) and most armies have easy access to rend... With buffed Save 3+, hit 3+ and damage 3 ironguts can delete almost any unit in one round.

Probably ironguts are slightly less effective than maneaters in general, but against tougher units I believe they might be better.

As a side note: I have also used Leadbelchers (being battleline in pure Gutbusters) and they seem to be rather good, even in melee: they have less attacks than ordinary ogors, but have rend -1.

[Furious]

Leadbelchers seem like a good "last fill" battleline, working well in a small unit of three for support, allowing you to beef up your Ogors/Ironguts. It's a shame they're only faction battleline though, and that Maneaters aren't Gutbusters : P

I'm getting into a Gutbusting Gitmob myself, so looking into Ogor tactics, builds and such.

[shadowgra]

imho pure gutbusters aren't all that strong. they lack the huge punch in a unit such as stonehorn. and i don't think that dropping the frostlord is a good idea since is our only piece that can put pression on turn 1. leadbealchers are imho pretty good, i didn't find the room for them in my previous list. 

on the problem ironguts-maneaters is a thing that needs to be solved, i searched all the discussion and nobody seem to agree. 

i think that while guts are more tanky, maneaters are more damaging and more reliable than them. this is purely from a teorical aspect since i have not run them yet in any game. the +1 save from ironguts is good, no one can argue that. although i think that some math here is required. note that it is purely matematic, don't even want to prove anything but to bring a question forward: which one is better? if it depends, in which scenarios?

3 guts: 15 wounds, 4+ save

maneaters: 15 wounds, 5+ save

3 guts, damage output (w cham) on a 4+:  6.67 wounds

3 maneaters damage output on a 4+: 7.11 wounds

3 maneaters damage including shooting on a 4+: 8.89 wounds

then there is another aspect: while maneaters have a nice ability that is chosen on setup, guts have a strong ability that although needs a unit of ogor to flee from combat. and since we run such low models this can be difficult, also because u don't want it to happen since our cheapest model is 40 points. 

 

at this point i ask it, pretty directly. maneaters or ironguts? which one is better? let's debate!

[Solaris]

Let's also include basic Ogors in the discussion. I'll do some math on it. I will calculate the average damage output, divide it by the cost of the unit and multiply with 100 - that way, the numbers will represent the damage output of 100 pts worth of each unit (i.e. we compare 100 pts of Ironguts with 100 pts of Maneaters and 100 pts of Ogors). I will also give the number of wounds per 100 pts worth of each unit.

Ogors with clubs and blades:
Damage: 6.48, rend - . On the charge: 7.56, rend - . 
Health: 10, save: 5+.

Ironguts:
Damage: 4.55, rend -1. DttI: 6.19, rend -1.
Health: 5.45, save 4+.

Maneaters:
Damage: 4.85, rend -1. Brawlers: 5.66, rend -1. Shooting: 1.21, rend -1.
Health: 5.45, save 5+.

Testing these numbers against different saves tells me that the damage output of Ogors is better against anything with a 4+ save, except for Brawling Maneaters or DttI Ironguts who do slightly more damage. However, Ogors do more damage on the charge. Against anything with a save worse than 4+, Ogors are just straight up better. Against a 3+ save, Brawling Maneaters do the highest damage. However, against this kind of save I would rather find alternatives with rend -2 or mortal wound output. Ogors are also by far the most survivable, due to the sheer amount of wounds that you get.

Based on this, I would conclude that basic Ogors are just all around stronger than both Ironguts and Maneaters in most situations, with the caveat that Maneaters bring some interesting tactical options in Striders and have a tiny bit of shooting. Still, I would question if it is worth it. Down to the Ironguts is a neat ability, but can only be used once per battle and requires special conditions to be met first. I don't think it's very reliable.

[shadowgra]

At this point i'll do also leadbelchers and mournfangs:

Leadbelchers

7.5 wounds, 5+ save

2.91 wounds, -1 rend

Shooting: 1.25 wounds with -1 rend

 

Mournfangs

6 wounds, 4+ save

3.34 wounds, -1 rend

Shooting 0.33 wounds -1 rend

 

That being said i think that mournfangs are simply terrible for their points, except for movement.

Leadbelchers i think they are not so great but i suppose that with +1 to hit with their guns they can do something.

Overall i agree that ironguts are unreliable (also said above). I really like maneaters tho, they can be pretty good hero hunters and also pretty fast with run and charge. Including golgfag can make one unit really scary   with rerolling 1 to hit and wound. Also the wound counts for shooting (another point in their favor).

 

[Solaris]

1 hour ago, shadowgra said:

Overall i agree that ironguts are unreliable (also said above). I really like maneaters tho, they can be pretty good hero hunters and also pretty fast with run and charge. Including golgfag can make one unit really scary   with rerolling 1 to hit and wound. Also the wound counts for shooting (another point in their favor).

Golgfag is actually really interesting, although randomizing his wargear every game kind of sucks. It would be much nicer if you got to choose. His chosen unit of Maneaters only get to rerolls 1s to wound though, not to hit. Rerolling 1s to wound brings Maneaters out to Brawler level damage output, and Brawler on top brings them further up to 6.60 damage output which is better than charging Ogors against 4+ saves. Nice! They are still rather frail though.

[shadowgra]

I counted their set up ability for the rerolls of 1