Darkling Covens - 2000pt (Thrall Warhost)

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

Hello all,

I was contemplating the viability of this list:

Allegiance: Order

Heroes
Sorceress On Black Dragon (340) - Darkling Sword
- Command Trait : Reckless
- Artefact : Quicksilver Potion
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (340) - Lance of Spite & Tyrant Shield
- Artefact : Quicksilver Potion
Units
10 x Dreadspears (80)
10 x Dreadspears (80)
10 x Dreadspears (80)
40 x Darkshards (400)
10 x Black Guard (180)
20 x Executioners (400)
Battalions
Thrall Warhost (80)

This list would deploy in 2 drops (1 if you subbed in another sorceress on dragon, rather than the dreadlord, but no need), letting you go first, or allowing the enemy to.  Luckily, your shields on the battleline, allow rerolls of 1s and 2s in combat (1s in shooting) which can be somewhat useful, but the power is from the battalion and quicksilver potion use.  In the hero phase, you can charge and/or pile-in and attack with a chosen unit within the battalion that is within 12" of an enemy unit and 18" of your sorceress.  Because of the musician ability for charges for Darkling Covens, you can choose to reroll 1 dice from the charge roll, or the entire roll if both are rubbish, from the commander's trait, Reckless.  If facing long shooters, you can move up (just keep your executioners or blackguards mystic shielded, whichever you choose to be 10 or 20), or allow them to go first and get in range.  Move up your line, hopefully hitting with the 40 darkshards, and letting the dreadspears die/get hit in combat.  Remove models to allow a > 1" gap between your dreadspear coherency to allow a hero-phase charge from your executioners/blackguards.

With 14" fly and 14 wounds, it's not uncommon in your hero phase to - 
1. Thrall Warhost charge-to-attack with Black Dragon/executioners/blackguards
2. Move/Shooting/Charge Phase to get the second Black Dragon and executioners/blackguards engaged
3. Activate quicksilver potions on the Black Dragons for two quick pile-ins
4. Regular combat phase with executioners/blackguards

The above allows for DEVASTATING priority attacks, as not much can stand up to mortal wounds from the executioners and possible 9 dragon maw attacks at -2 rend, D6 damage each, BEFORE the enemy can even counter.  This is useful when facing Khorne, since the enemy can die in hero phase (and shooting with 80 darkshard 4+/4+ shots), as well as bypassing grot fanatics, since the charge and attack are performed in the HERO phase, NOT the CHARGE phase.  The rerollable charges can reliably fly your dragon over the frontline to flank and hit the backline, or the rear of the front.  Noxious breath can get a few mortal wounds off against hordes of units, and the bladewind spell is mostly meant for killing ranged units/wizards with crappy melee profiles.  Let me know what you think

[chord]

I can't comment on the Darkling Covens, but I love the ideas behind it.  A bonus for using a little used faction

[Mayple]

The biggest weakness with the Thrall warhost is that killing the leader of the Coven nullifies the entire battalion - It looks like you're planning to charge your sorceress on the black dragon into the fray, which leaves a key component of your army very exposed. On the plus side, she doesn't have to be your general, so if you can find some use of the Dreadlord's command ability, you can ensure that you at least get to do something as long as at least one of the dragons are alive (and spread out the target prioritisation as well). If not, you'll have a bit too many eggs in the same basket if you ask me  

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

15 minutes ago, Mayple said:

The biggest weakness with the Thrall warhost is that killing the leader of the Coven nullifies the entire battalion - It looks like you're planning to charge your sorceress on the black dragon into the fray, which leaves a key component of your army very exposed. On the plus side, she doesn't have to be your general, so if you can find some use of the Dreadlord's command ability, you can ensure that you at least get to do something as long as at least one of the dragons are alive (and spread out the target prioritisation as well). If not, you'll have a bit too many eggs in the same basket if you ask me  

Remember... the sorceress can charge/pile-in/attack in hero phase, and then choose to retreat/fly away afterwards, allowing for crazy hit-and-run tactics.  It's not hard to be careful with a free charge-attack that allows a retreat with a 14" fly + d6" run.

I never said that I was going to charge the Sorceress into the fray unsupported.  The point is to have your dreadspears get engaged, and the Sorceress charges over or around them to a weaker unit/hero, or to assist in softening that unit up with the hero phase attack.    

The Dreadlord on Black Dragon can charge with less support due to the 4+ with rerolls, but the Sorceress will need some guarding.

[Mayple]

1 minute ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Remember... the sorceress can charge/pile-in/attack in hero phase, and then choose to retreat/fly away afterwards, allowing for crazy hit-and-run tactics.

Oh, yeah! I like the thinking behind that. If you manage to keep her from getting pinned down, and use that maneuver properly, I don't believe you'll have any issue
 

I would make the Dreadlord the general though, if only to paint a target on his back that keeps attention away from your sorceress. You lose very little from doing it like that, and gain an added safety of not losing everything if your sorceress gets sniped off the table. There's no 'wrong' way of doing it though, since you can get good value out of having her be the general with the reckless trait. You just stand to lose a lot more if someone hits back. Up to you, tbh

[Nick Jebson]

I have been running the Darkling covens in the NZ scene to some success. i run...

sorceress on foot
sorceress on dragon with Quicksilver
celestial hurricanum with pheonix stone
30 Dreadspears
10 Darkshards
10 Darkshards
20 black guard
10 Executioners
Rocket Battery
thrall warhost

the hurricanum means that the Executioners do there thing on a 5+, which at the last tournament saw them kill 2 bloodthirsters in one turn. the number of ranged mortal wounds it pumps out too is frightening and means with the rocket battery i have strong ranged threat (especially if it is near the hurricanum)

it also means the black guard are hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's. i feel they are the better large unit as with a 2" reach it is quite possible to get them all in with 41 attacks, which my opponents have found brutal.

most of the force can be clasified as "dangerous" either at range (rocket battery, hurricanum) and in combat (spearmen at 2+ to hit, dragon sorceress and the two elite units)

the executioners i feel only need to be in a unit of 10, buff them with mystic shield and have them in the second line, let the enemy charge in then counter with them. they are a powerful unit but not a large block worth (my unit of 10 proved to a unit of 20 why you dont need that many in one go)

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

11 hours ago, Nick Jebson said:

I have been running the Darkling covens in the NZ scene to some success. i run...

sorceress on foot
sorceress on dragon with Quicksilver
celestial hurricanum with pheonix stone
30 Dreadspears
10 Darkshards
10 Darkshards
20 black guard
10 Executioners
Rocket Battery
thrall warhost

the hurricanum means that the Executioners do there thing on a 5+, which at the last tournament saw them kill 2 bloodthirsters in one turn. the number of ranged mortal wounds it pumps out too is frightening and means with the rocket battery i have strong ranged threat (especially if it is near the hurricanum)

it also means the black guard are hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's. i feel they are the better large unit as with a 2" reach it is quite possible to get them all in with 41 attacks, which my opponents have found brutal.

most of the force can be clasified as "dangerous" either at range (rocket battery, hurricanum) and in combat (spearmen at 2+ to hit, dragon sorceress and the two elite units)

the executioners i feel only need to be in a unit of 10, buff them with mystic shield and have them in the second line, let the enemy charge in then counter with them. they are a powerful unit but not a large block worth (my unit of 10 proved to a unit of 20 why you dont need that many in one go)

True, I could grab a Hurricanum instead of Dreadlord on Dragon, for the ranged attack, buff, and casting advantage.  This will paint a huge target on the Hurricanum and Executioners, but the +hit buff would be GREAT on the Darkshards... 40 doing 80 shots at 3+/4+ would be nice...

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

Allegiance: Order

Heroes
Sorceress On Black Dragon (340) - Darkling Sword
- Artefact : Quicksilver Potion
Celestial Hurricanum (320) 
- Artefact : Phoenix Stone
- Command Trait : Reckless
Units
10 x Dreadspears (80)
10 x Dreadspears (80)
10 x Dreadspears (80)
40 x Darkshards (400)
10 x Black Guard (180)
20 x Executioners (400)
Battalions
Thrall Warhost (80)

[Nick Jebson]

this is my Hurricanum conversion, ties it to the Dark elf aesthetic a bit more

literally just the cauldron kit with some of the bones and skulls removed from the cauldron (now skrying pool) and the mechanical section of the hurricanum that i grabbed from a friend who had a spare (he built a luminark)

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

I LOVE that conversion...

Holding out until July for any announcement of updated Malerion/Malekith and status of Aelves.

How are you handling the competitive scene with the Thrall Warhost?

[Mayple]

I like the addition of the hurricanum. I usually loathe it (It gets included in far too many lists) - but it's quite thematic in this one, and the conversion idea is solid. It definitely solves my previous concerns about the sorceress. This is shaping up to be a very decent list  

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

11 hours ago, Mayple said:

I like the addition of the hurricanum. I usually loathe it (It gets included in far too many lists) - but it's quite thematic in this one, and the conversion idea is solid. It definitely solves my previous concerns about the sorceress. This is shaping up to be a very decent list  

Yep, I really do see the high damage output/utility in this list.  There's the ability to consistently pump out damage in hero/shooting/combat phases.  I can see a Skyfire alpha-strike killing the sorceress 1st turn though...  ALTHOUGH with a 2 drop list, you should get the initiative and ability to reliably pop a mystic shield (with sacrifice).

[Nick Jebson]

Quote

How are you handling the competitive scene with the Thrall Warhost?

because it is not an overly fast list (lets face it, there all on foot except the dragon) I've been setting up three layers to the line keeping 2"-3" between them. crossbows in front, followed by spears followed close behind on the flanks by the executioners and black guard. this way i protect the main assets from the possibility of a double turn charge (especially those horrible 1st turn assaults from stonehorns and disc riders) and then retaliating with a hero phase combat, either with the spears or the elites. then hitting home with the usual rounds worth of pain. its very flexible in that way that there arn't just one or two main threats for the opponent but 4+ so they cant alpha strike you straight off.

generally I've been finishing upper mid of a tournament (average seems to be 3 wins out of 5 games)

[Kaleun]

I really like the approach with a Hurricanum and Darkling Covens. A Suggestion:

Heroes
Sorceress On Black Dragon (340)
- Witch Rod
- Artefact : Quicksilver Potion
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (320)
- General
- Command Trait : Reckless
- Artefact : Phoenix Stone
Units
10 x Executioners (200)
20 x Black Guard (360)
10 x Dreadspears (80)
10 x Dreadspears (80)
30 x Darkshards (300)
War Machines
Reaper Bolt Thrower (120)
Reaper Bolt Thrower (120)
Battalions
Thrall Warhost (80)

Total: 2000/ 2000

.) I think 20 Executioners with the Hurricanum would already cause Overkill to most enemy units -> I took 10 in my list
.) From my experience the Reaper Bolt Throwers are the best artillery Unit Order can field. The damage ist impressive with 6 wounds. Even better with the Hurricanum. Also as a fluffbunny I must refuse to take blackpowder weapons as Druchii hate the loud sound of them. Another thing is that this army is very (aelven-) slow. So the RBTs provide damage potential on enemy key units.
.) The 30 Shards with Hurricanum cause 20 wounds. Very good for just 300 points! If the Squad grows to big, you might have movement problems with that many models. They might interfere with your charges and movement.

What do you think?

A great conversion!!

[Kaleun]

@Nick Jebson

what were the basic weaknesses of your list in the games you lost in tournament (or while using that list)? What would you change?

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

On 6/18/2017 at 9:35 AM, Kaleun said:

I really like the approach with a Hurricanum and Darkling Covens. A Suggestion:

Heroes
Sorceress On Black Dragon (340)
- Witch Rod
- Artefact : Quicksilver Potion
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (320)
- General
- Command Trait : Reckless
- Artefact : Phoenix Stone
Units
10 x Executioners (200)
20 x Black Guard (360)
10 x Dreadspears (80)
10 x Dreadspears (80)
30 x Darkshards (300)
War Machines
Reaper Bolt Thrower (120)
Reaper Bolt Thrower (120)
Battalions
Thrall Warhost (80)

Total: 2000/ 2000

.) I think 20 Executioners with the Hurricanum would already cause Overkill to most enemy units -> I took 10 in my list
.) From my experience the Reaper Bolt Throwers are the best artillery Unit Order can field. The damage ist impressive with 6 wounds. Even better with the Hurricanum. Also as a fluffbunny I must refuse to take blackpowder weapons as Druchii hate the loud sound of them. Another thing is that this army is very (aelven-) slow. So the RBTs provide damage potential on enemy key units.
.) The 30 Shards with Hurricanum cause 20 wounds. Very good for just 300 points! If the Squad grows to big, you might have movement problems with that many models. They might interfere with your charges and movement.

What do you think?

A great conversion!!

I agree that the bolt-throwers are good, but the reason I stray away is that there are only TWO crew each.  With a heavy shooting meta, Skyfires/Kurnoths/Artillery will render those 240pts useless with a single shot.  4 wounds on 40 darkshards is not a big deal, but 4 wounds on bolt throwers will cost you dearly.

[Kaleun]

Not a big deal. Put the wounds on the warmachine first. With moving 4'' and shooting 36'' you should get of some shots before the enemy gets to you.

Also in the posted list you may find enough cheap chaff units to keep enemy close quarter fighters at bay.

[Kramer]

On 6/20/2017 at 3:46 PM, Kaleun said:

Not a big deal. Put the wounds on the warmachine first. With moving 4'' and shooting 36'' you should get of some shots before the enemy gets to you.

Nope, the crew and warmachine are different units. So if he targets the crew, he hits the crew. In the same way the dreadlords ability targets exiles so you can only buff the crew but its the warmachine that shoots. So you don't get a buff in that manner. 

A lot of people haven't seen this but it was one of the first FAQ's. 

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/warhammer_aos_rules_en.pdf (just ctrl-f and search crew)

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

On 6/20/2017 at 9:46 AM, Kaleun said:

Not a big deal. Put the wounds on the warmachine first. With moving 4'' and shooting 36'' you should get of some shots before the enemy gets to you.

Also in the posted list you may find enough cheap chaff units to keep enemy close quarter fighters at bay.

The problem isn't having cheap chaff, it's Tzaangor Skyfires that fly 16" and can shoot like over 24", along with Kurnoth Hunters, Kharadrons, and other long-range threats.

[Kaleun]

@Kramer

the way I see it, the question in the faq is answered that the owner (!) of the warmachine may target either the crew or the warmachine for wound allocation. That is the only way I can find suitable for warmachines; compare it to the skaven warplighting cannon or the skullcannon, which are way more sturdier then the aelven warmachines anyway. Also every hero in AoS got at least 5 wunds. Why would a 120 Point warmachine become half useless after the loss of 1 wound (4+ save, crew) or totally killed after the loss of 2 wounds?? Doesnt make sense!

@Black_Fortress_Immortal

defninitly true! The Skyfires have an 40'' Attack radius and should easily get one bolt Thrower killed per turn. The only thing I can say here is, that the Reaper Bolt Thrower itself is a threat to the skyfires. Either get more warmachines in or use them as a distraction so the warmachine suck up the fire keeping it from maybe more important parts of your army. Anyway Skyfires are super strong and hard to deal with.
Honestly I can hardly resist the combination of Warmachines and the Hurricanum. Each Reaper Bolt Thrower applies then 8 wounds with a rend of -1 to the target unit.

 

[Kramer]

On 14-7-2017 at 10:21 PM, Kaleun said:

Doesnt make sense!

Nope it doesn't but them's the rules! Check the question section or gw the age of sigmar twitch live streams for confirmation ?

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

On 7/14/2017 at 4:21 PM, Kaleun said:

@Kramer

the way I see it, the question in the faq is answered that the owner (!) of the warmachine may target either the crew or the warmachine for wound allocation. That is the only way I can find suitable for warmachines; compare it to the skaven warplighting cannon or the skullcannon, which are way more sturdier then the aelven warmachines anyway. Also every hero in AoS got at least 5 wunds. Why would a 120 Point warmachine become half useless after the loss of 1 wound (4+ save, crew) or totally killed after the loss of 2 wounds?? Doesnt make sense!

@Black_Fortress_Immortal

defninitly true! The Skyfires have an 40'' Attack radius and should easily get one bolt Thrower killed per turn. The only thing I can say here is, that the Reaper Bolt Thrower itself is a threat to the skyfires. Either get more warmachines in or use them as a distraction so the warmachine suck up the fire keeping it from maybe more important parts of your army. Anyway Skyfires are super strong and hard to deal with.
Honestly I can hardly resist the combination of Warmachines and the Hurricanum. Each Reaper Bolt Thrower applies then 8 wounds with a rend of -1 to the target unit.

 

I don't dislike bolt-throwers, I'd definitely consider them as a sideboard against just about anything that doesn't have long-range shooting.  The mass of Darkshards is just a more mobile, and hardier option.

[Kaleun]

I really fell in love with our Darkling Coven Lists and am actually buying everything together.

Would you stick to those lists or consider improvements? For example the include of a Collegiate Arcane Battlemage (Beast?) for +1 to wound (+1 cast because of the hurricanum) in combat.

[Kaleun]

I have found a Free Peoples List with similar purpose, that our dark elve list must compete with:

 

• Freeguild General on mount with banner, Phoenix Stone and Inspiring.
• Celestial Hurricanum with Mage
• Freeguild Swordsmen x 20
• Freeguild Crossbowmen x 30
• Freeguild Handgunners x 20
• Freeguild Handgunners x 20
• Helstorm Rocket Battery
• Helstorm Rocket Battery
• Helstorm Rocket Battery
• Empire Cannon (still a little confusion on if this Warscroll is valid, but easily swapped out with yet another Helstorm if not!)

the Goal would be to write a superior list.

Source:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/04/18/aos-tactics-latest-free-peoples-tactics/

 

this List has good synergy and a good compination of short and Long range Shooting.