What if GW AoSified 40k?

[TheParallax]

like it has been said above I would love for 40k to be streamlined like AoS. Being a father of 2 and having a busy household it makes for long breaks from the hobby, and I remember getting all into wanting to do a black legion and bought old rulebook and setting up army list , buying and even before I get everything done, there is a new book out on the market making my list not up to date and have to pay full pop for a new book. 

so I would like 40k to do what AoS has done come out with cheaper books , free warscrolls, even you can buy what you want from the app (let me say I love that feature) .

Also like the freedom of ways to play AoS , which I know from my boys , they like 40k but its easier for them to save their money and grab a unit of something, build and play vs having to buy multiple things before they can play.

i know i am a huge fan of AoS and not that I want to keep saying add this add that to 40k with out saying a few thing I would like the to keep, I love 40k fluff , please keep that. It is what sold me on playing and keeps me reading the BL novels. Also keep the armory , would love to see streamlined rules and all you have to do is look up a weapons profile in an index giving you options to more personalize your units.

as much as I would love to see this I think the backlash that came out towards AoS , maybe keeps gw from pulling the trigger , but then again those new friendly starter sets are coming out so who knows what that will bring.

[Mehman]

I'm quite tired of hearing about balance between armies. Their isn't militaristic balance in our world - never has been - so why would there be 38,000 years in the future? I'll digress there so as to not rant (although I want to really bad ).

I figure if GW gave 40k the AoS treatment, a few people would have massive internal hemorrhaging. Would it be more fun? I don't really know. I officially quit 40k last week and am selling off my collection of miniatures for both it and 30k. There's too much hate and rage about it to really enjoy it anymore. Well, that and I'm not physically able to play anymore.

How can you divorce the game from its "players" is my question.

[hobgoblinclub]

9 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

@hobgoblinclub

 

You did ask for what GW did wrong with AoS, which i tried to answer  .

It is indeed fear of what would happen to the community. Before this forum came about, there was no positive place to talk AoS, and even locally it's not the most comfortable to talk AoS with non-AoS players. Which brings me to my rant earlier   I love AoS, but they made significant mistakes that alienated players when it launched. The points i made are relatively simple solutions to lessen that impact.

Indeed I did. Apologies. Your words just seemed to stray dangerously close to ranting, in our lovely little haven. 

Agree with you on the fluff. Although I know very little of it, it seems the best thing about 40k. I'm thinking GW wouldn't have to change much, as it's already a fairly distinct IP. Fantasy was pretty generic tolkienesque stuff so they felt the need to make it something of their own. 

[gad11]

I'm new to 40K but I kinda like the complexity. It takes some practice to get it all figured but I think it works. Funny thing is the entire rulebook for AoS is 4 pages and my 'cheat' sheets for 40K is 7 pages of condensed rules. LOL. 

I like both games for what they are. 

[AdamJ]

I've never played 40k or 8th WFB but it was giving Fantasy the AoS treatment which finally gave me the push to have a few games.

The thing that was putting me off during 8th was the fact I was going to have to spend £60+ for the rulebook and army book (or the island of blood set) and I had no idea if I was going to like what I read. To me that was a heavy commitment to see if the rules were for me.

The free 4 page rules in my opinion is a masterstroke. I've always been a fan of the Magic the gathering style of easy basic rules but warscrolls which then bend and twist the rules to build the complexity. That gives you the freedom to make the rules as easy or as complex as you like depending on your unit choices. Amazingly my wife has just agreed to try a mini-game of AoS - there's no way she would have agreed to that if I'd of whipped out the 8th edition rulebook!

I say bring on the AoSing of 40k - I will certainly consider having a go. I have no intention to do that now despite how tempting the start collecting box sets look!

[RuneBrush]

Personally I think 40k does need simplifying - or more precisely streamlining.  I'm not entirely sure cutting it down like AoS would work though and I think you may lose some of the strategic complexities with the game.  I also think it would cause a huge outcry.

However as I've said to a few friends recently, I can fully see a simplified ruleset working for skirmish games like Necromunda (or kill team).  Very similar to Silver Tower in that each model has a card with base abilities (e.g. Leader has a command ability) and keywords related to them.  Stack of cards with weapons on that have keyword requirements (Specialist, Heavy etc).  Stacks of cards for learned abilities (e.g. stack for combat, ranged, technology), another for long term injuries.

Weapon cards would have: range; attacks (replacing sustained fire); to hit columns for short and long range; to wound; rend (aka armour modifier); damage.

In fact the only real change would be giving models more than one or two wounds   A pinning mechanic would need to be considered too I guess.

[Druchiilord94]

IMO no i wouldn't like to see 40k get Aos'd i love playing aos but id rather not have both games be simple free rules sure but i like how complex 40k is.

[Carnelian]

As long as they up the wounds of everything but make damage towards anything easier to dish out I will be happy

[SuperHappyTime]

No, but secretly I would cheer for anything that makes the game a little easier to play.

The biggest problem I've had with the AoS treatment is how meaningless the basic troop becomes vs centerpiece models, even when you can take them 10 at a time. I like 40K because of the little guys, the Marines, Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, Gaunts, and other basic troops. The Knights, Wraithknights, and Riptides, bore me, mostly because of how quickly they slaughter the basic troops without getting scratched. Hell I like my Stormsurge, but I'd rather see it off the table mid-game than still on it.

AoS basically made the centerpieces more magnificent and toned down the basic troop. It was something WFB needed, but it isn't something 40K needs.

[Starkraven]

I think the solution to this is to have two versions of 40k.

They keep the standard version as it has it's many fans and is GWs big money spinner, but they issue a side version of the game with slightly different branding and it's own identity like 'Warhammer 40,000 BattleForged' or something similar.

They can release battle slates similar to warscrolls and issue narrative books similar to the battle tomes and grand alliance books.

GW doubles the market for the game with 2 sets of sales for the same releases and keeps both sides of the hit/wound tables happy.

[ronin_cse]

I don't think 40k should be totally "AoSified" but I would like to see them at least switch the 40k statline to the AoS version. Just getting rid of all those horrible charts would make the game so much better. Even when you have them memorized you still have to keep asking your opponent what T their models are. I recently taught both games to a new player and even though he likes sci-fi and the 40k setting better he's going to go for AoS because of the rules.

On 6/21/2016 at 3:25 PM, Starkraven said:

I think the solution to this is to have two versions of 40k.

They keep the standard version as it has it's many fans and is GWs big money spinner, but they issue a side version of the game with slightly different branding and it's own identity like 'Warhammer 40,000 BattleForged' or something similar.

They can release battle slates similar to warscrolls and issue narrative books similar to the battle tomes and grand alliance books.

GW doubles the market for the game with 2 sets of sales for the same releases and keeps both sides of the hit/wound tables happy.

Nah this would be a really bad idea. Ask Coke how well having two versions of their soda went

[Starkraven]

Coke and Diet Coke? I'm not sure of the analogy.

[AdamJ]

23 minutes ago, Starkraven said:

Coke and Diet Coke? I'm not sure of the analogy.

A few decades ago coke changed the flavour and there was uproar, for a time there was New Coke and Classic Coke!

[ronin_cse]

21 minutes ago, Starkraven said:

Coke and Diet Coke? I'm not sure of the analogy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke#Coke_II

Just a popular example. Basically when you release two versions of your own product even though you're still making money your products are competing against each other and end up lowering total mind share. It's better to have one popular product than 2 products that while more popular together, aren't as popular by themselves.

[Starkraven]

So Coke and Coke zero

 

[warhammernerd]

On 21 June 2016 at 5:19 AM, SuperHappyTime said:

No, but secretly I would cheer for anything that makes the game a little easier to play.

The biggest problem I've had with the AoS treatment is how meaningless the basic troop becomes vs centerpiece models, even when you can take them 10 at a time. I like 40K because of the little guys, the Marines, Guardsmen, Fire Warriors, Gaunts, and other basic troops. The Knights, Wraithknights, and Riptides, bore me, mostly because of how quickly they slaughter the basic troops without getting scratched. Hell I like my Stormsurge, but I'd rather see it off the table mid-game than still on it.

AoS basically made the centerpieces more magnificent and toned down the basic troop. It was something WFB needed, but it isn't something 40K needs.

Yes,

exactly.

Lets not forget the little guys.

[Gaz Taylor]

11 hours ago, ronin_cse said:

I don't think 40k should be totally "AoSified" but I would like to see them at least switch the 40k statline to the AoS version. Just getting rid of all those horrible charts would make the game so much better. Even when you have them memorized you still have to keep asking your opponent what T their models are. I recently taught both games to a new player and even though he likes sci-fi and the 40k setting better he's going to go for AoS because of the rules.

Doesn't everybody use Scatterbikes? So 2's to wound?

I agree with this and I think this is going back to the calls about streamlining the game. Having been focused upon other games this year, I had forgotten how daunting all the codexes and rules are for 40K and I've been gaming for over 20 years so I dread to think how a new starter must feel.

[StoneMonk]

GW learned a lot from their AoS release and if they do something drastic with 40k, they will do it better. Fact is, they are becoming a different company too, so 40k will change.

Also, I think i heard mention that you can boil 8th ed core rules down to 5 pages. 8th ed special rules equivelant in AoS are the warscrolls. AoS rules require less diagramming. So in hindsight, I think AoS was a streamline rearrangement. Allowing shooting into combat could have happened in any addition. The biggest changes were aesthetic - rounds, ranks and flanks.

Getting away from official points for 12 months has given room for a greater variety of gameplay. 

I don't play 40k, but wish I could once in awhile. I have Skitarii. Just not bothered to learn the rules.

I don't know if the 40k community needs any help playing in new ways or not since i'm not a part of it.

[Veterannoob]

Hey now, hold on to those skitarii.

i suppose we shall see this fall.

[WoollyMammoth]

If there is  one thing I know about 40k players is they love to talk. and talk. and talk. I see more people sitting around discussing 40k than actually playing the game. The game is good. People who play it enjoy it. Why take that away from them? Why take away all the things they love to talk about? 

AoS alienated the fantasy fan base, deleted their game and said, heres something new - enjoy it or goodbye. Most people quit, most people playing AoS are doing so as new players. If they delete the 40k fan base they will not have a leg to stand on. Theres no possibility of 40k being destroyed unless AoS becomes at least 60% of the worldwide profits, which would mean it would have to at least double its popularity which can easily take a decade, if at all.  

40k satisfies those who are seeking a game that takes a master course in rules to be able to compete in. Personally I like taking all that time and using it to paint models, but that's just me.

To be fair, if 40k did turn to AoS, i would definitely be more inclined to play it; With AoS you get to buy the models you want and have fun with them. I could say, get a couple DE Reavers, a voidraven & jetbikes and incubi, throw in some eldar wraithguard and war walkers - paint them all up awesome. If i did that now I would either get laughed at or screamed at ..so I don't play 40k.

[hobgoblinclub]

13 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Most people quit, most people playing AoS are doing so as new players.

I think it's probably more like 'some'. Based on Twitter there's clearly a massive chunk of the community who have made it through to the other side.

Regardless, if the people playing AoS have changed massively, there's definitely more of them. So what if huge swathes of the 40k community run to other games if twice as many new players come in. GW won't mind who is playing their games so long as there's lots of them. 

[rokapoke]

2 hours ago, hobgoblinclub said:

Regardless, if the people playing AoS have changed massively, there's definitely more of them. So what if huge swathes of the 40k community run to other games if twice as many new players come in. GW won't mind who is playing their games so long as there's lots of them. 

Also, new players are likely more lucrative for GW. "Let's see, we can keep Jimmy as a player, with his five fully-developed armies and no need to buy more... or we can add Fred and Barney, who will each buy at least one army to start from scratch."

I'm new to gaming with Age of Sigmar, but could've just as easily tried 40K except for the ridiculous starting costs. Additionally, giving the rules away for free is absolutely genius. Sometimes it's not what the community wants, but it's what they should want.

[WoollyMammoth]

10 hours ago, hobgoblinclub said:

I think it's probably more like 'some'. Based on Twitter there's clearly a massive chunk of the community who have made it through to the other side.

Regardless, if the people playing AoS have changed massively, there's definitely more of them. So what if huge swathes of the 40k community run to other games if twice as many new players come in. GW won't mind who is playing their games so long as there's lots of them. 

I really wish that were true. I'm sure there are some communities where AoS has picked up. In England there are certainly good communities going, but Fantasy has always been popular there, and they have great community leaders who stuck with AoS. The naturally larger and dedicated fan base has allowed a community to exist. Everyone quit in the states, all my favorite podcasts, all the community leaders I know of, all the major tournaments refused to change to the new system. 

Twitter dosen't matter, its a worldwide tag. You could get one person from 1% of the cities which have access to twitter and you'd get hundreds of posts per day of individual products and models, with not a single actual game being played.

I've heard of small bubbles of communities popping up. I know in Manhattan they have a couple regulars. Most people haven't burnt their models in a rage, but they are stubbornly refusing to try the new system. I talk to people all the time who "have armies" but I can never get them to play. I have been spearheading a campaign to get people in Phoenix (the 6th largest city in the US) organized, using all means possible for the last 8 months. My result is I have found 5 people willing to play AoS regularly, and 4 of them have since took a break from the hobby or switched to 40k.

There are people buying models for sure. The sales increases can easily be attributed to the fact that GW has made it easier than ever to get into the hobby, while releasing massive amounts of new content and providing really great discounts with the new boxes. What this leads to is lots of people splitting the AoS box with their friend, maybe even bringing it to GW to play on a big table - but these people are not talking about it or looking to play with others. Many people are picking up a box and never doing much with it, and I'm sure sales have risen for kids and teenagers. There may be an increase in sales but at the cost of actual community. 8th edition was fueled by community, people getting together as groups to have games and host events.

Another major factor is people are drawn in by the new stormcast. So far about 2/3 of the people I see trying to play AoS have stormcast. There has also been some interest in the new Silver Tower. I'd love to see the sales figures - I bet sales are probably 95% boxed sets and stormcast and probably 5% all other armies and individual boxes.

The biggest factor limiting the community is that with no balance in AoS, fans have to create the balance themselves. This hurdle proves too much for the community. You got some people playing wound count, some people playing Azyr points, some people playing Pool system or SCGT, some people turning to Kings of War or 9th age. Everyone is so split up that most groups cant get more than 2-3 people and eventually give up and fall apart.

In order to get a group going, you need some kind of amazing individual, so dedicated to the hobby they are willing to bring people together, organize online material to promote the hobby, pick and promote a comp system. They have to be a natural salesman, motivating people to get into it, while selling their comp system as the one that is the most fun. I am trying my best but I'm not much of a salesman and honestly I'd rather be painting models than volunteering to be GWs unpaid full time community organizer. Maybe you are lucky enough to have a person like this in your community. Unfortunately, most don't, and many are more into KoW or a Azyr comp and so that is your only option. GW came to their senses and made the generals handbook which will finally make it so community organizers don't have to keep trying to swim against the current. 

Most people actively playing AoS are not from 8th edition. I recently met my first AoS player like me who is playing AoS having actively participated in 8th ed as well. If 40k decides to blow up their world and remove all point values and allow people to bring whatever they want to play a game with 4 pages of rules, they will lose most of their fanbase overnight. The nature of 40k players is even more competitive than fantasy, so a new game where competition basically doesn't matter is going to cause everyone to rage quit. It might however, lead to an increase in sales which is good for GW so maybe they will do it. 40k still represents 70% of the sales so maybe having more people means more chance at a community growing faster than fantasy. If the Generals Handbook proves to finally allow a fantasy community to flourish - and in turn a huge sales boost, then 40K is very likely to get the end times treatment, but with a 40k "generals handbook" at launch to soften the blow and keep competitive games going.
 

[hobgoblinclub]

12 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

I'm sure sales have risen for kids and teenagers.

I'm sorry your community seems to have fractured. I think you're probably in a minority though. All the rumours are pointing towards increased sales over Fantasy by quite a margin.

Your statement above is pretty much misson success for GW. Maybe the communities you played in, or the older players, or whatever, have gone away. AoS on the other hand in pulling more and more new players in.

A couple of years back I was all '40k is for kids. We don't want to be popular anyway'. Truth is, the new generation clearly saw AoS as some dull, one step away from historical game, and was in real danger of dying. Now, the fact AoS has mass appeal excites me. I'm wondering what the future holds and where the new community will go from here, and how big it'll get.

Wait until the General's Handbook comes out, give it time to bed in, and see what happens then. 

[Veterannoob]

@hobgoblinclub I'm sure AoS will be fine and fun and GW shall continue to improve in reality, but I also expect these morons armchair analysts reading a financial report like they have any more info than anyone else and "divining" what is going on behind those wall (and that rhino or Stormcast Eternal)  Let them feel better by speculating bull$hi+ if it makes them temporarily happy...

I also expect more great games with new opponents while the bitter minority pace around, looking for the prefect time to pounce with obnoxious negativity or to troll the place up.