What can and can't ruin Age of Sigmar

[swarmofseals]

4 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I think that one of the things that's happened on TGA is that we started out with a group of people who were pretty much all very enthused about AoS.  We had no points system so the whole game was about having an enjoyable game with an opponent and collecting awesome models.  Our posts reflected this really positive attitude.

When Pitched Battle profiles dropped it was the brought in of a lot of new AoS players - many returning from WFB and many new.  With them came a new way of looking at the game - from a competitive/balanced angle.  This new angle means that you change the fundamental way of looking at an army - that unit isn't worth the points, that combination isn't as good as that one, etc.  It inherently encourages a critical slant on the game.  Sadly a lot of people struggle to handle criticism - either giving and/or receiving - and ultimately results in disagreements or arguments (which the mods are pretty good at keeping on top of).  It has however meant that some people avoid parts of TGA because they simply don't want to deal with any potential negativity - equally some people love a bit of confrontation/debate and enjoy adding their opinion (or at times fuel to the fire).  It's one of the reasons I only poke the questions forum occasionally - I can't be bothered with any potential grief if my interpretation of a rule is different to someone else.

And I've just realised that this post is a good case in point - I've outlined an opinion and my own cursory read through is pretty negative - time for a smiley face

Overall, I still feel TGA is more positive than negative.  I think providing people remember that we're all entitled to express our own opinion and not be ridiculed or outright told we're wrong, we'll continue to be a good community.

Totally agree regarding how easy it is to get misunderstood when trying to communicate in a text only format! I should be clear that what you and I are describing as negativity are very different things. Personally, I don't find debate (even heated debate) to be inherently negative, whether it be about aesthetics or which unit is "better" on the table for its point cost. It certainly can get negative when people get nasty, but that's a completely different problem.

What I mean by negativity are broad, generalizing, negative statements about the hobby or particular ways to play the game that serve relatively little constructive purpose. 

 

37 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

This. 

And this. What's really saddening is that for most such players miniatures are just plastic scrap, pieces on the board and not what they actually are. The hobby is about these miniatures but such attitude kills it like a savage beast devours its prey.

I hope I don't cross a line by saying so, but this is a prime example of what I was trying to avoid. It's a broad generalization that doesn't serve much purpose other than to demonize a group of players that plays the game differently from your preferred way. It also assumes that your way is the correct way, and that their way is wrong. 

[Menkeroth]

7 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I hope I don't cross a line by saying so, but this is a prime example of what I was trying to avoid. It's a broad generalization that doesn't serve much purpose other than to demonize a group of players that plays the game differently from your preferred way. It also assumes that your way is the correct way, and that their way is wrong. 

You have not, but you are wrong, partially because it's not about playing, it's about hobby, of which the gaming part is but a small fraction. You should think first and write second, should you not?

 

[Nin Win]

There's definitely something there in terms of hobby interest.  My worst Warmachine/Hordes experiences where with people with unpainted miniatures and no terrain, just mouse pad material templates.

One thing I've noticed is that all the local AoS players have painted miniatures.  I have yet to see an unpainted miniature on the table, even in photos on local social media pages.

[swarmofseals]

10 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

This. 

And this. What's really saddening is that for most such players miniatures are just plastic scrap, pieces on the board and not what they actually are. The hobby is about these miniatures but such attitude kills it like a savage beast devours its prey.

 

2 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

You have not, but you are wrong, partially because it's not about playing, it's about hobby, of which the gaming part is but a small fraction. You should think first and write second, should you not?

For the sake of clarity, "such players" seems to refer to players that returned to AoS after matched play was introduced. 

I said that your claim was a "broad generalization." What I was referring to specifically is your claim that "for most such players miniatures are just plastic scrap." I'm not sure how you have the evidence to make a claim about what "most players" in such a large group feel. Even if you thoroughly read every AoS forum and catalogued what you found in a thorough manner, you still wouldn't have a representative sample of the community as a whole. Even among attendees at major competitive tournaments like SCGT, I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that a majority don't care a whit about the hobby side of things. I wasn't at the tournament myself, but I've seen enough army dioramas to know that many players sitting at the top tables also featured some amazing visual impact that took a lot of work. No doubt you can find folks who do a slapdash job with painting (or don't paint at all). Even then, for some people this is more reflective of the amount of time they have (or skill, in some cases) for painting. You might see a person at your FLGS playing with grey plastic and assume that they don't care at all about their models or the hobby. You might hear them talking about how they want to use this or that unit because they think it's more powerful or efficient. You might conclude that this player is one of your folks who views their miniatures as "plastic scrap." That very same player might have bought those miniatures with every intention of painting them, but they haven't had the time to paint yet. Or maybe they are saving up to buy the paints that they need. Or maybe they are a novice and haven't gotten the courage up yet to try painting. Maybe they spent hours carefully choosing each combination of bits for their models and could tell you about how they posed each one if you asked them. Or maybe they really don't care. All of these are possibilities, and unless you really get to know the person you won't have a complete picture of how they experience AoS.

As for my claim that you are stating that "your way is the correct way, and their way is wrong," I am referring to your statements regarding "what they actually are" and that "such attitude kills [the hobby]." In a way, you repeat this in your second post, claiming that "it's not about playing, it's about hobby." There are clearly many ways that people experience AoS. For some it's a game entirely, and the hobby aspect is minimal. Others buy the miniatures purely to paint and convert and have no intention of ever playing the game. These are two ends of a spectrum, and AOS enthusiasts fall at every point in between. Maybe I'm crazy to say this, but I don't think that any of these players are right or wrong. There is no objectively correct way to experience AoS. We will be a MUCH stronger community if we can accept that it's OK to have different priorities. For you, clearly the hobby comes first and the game is secondary. That's perfectly valid, and I support your priorities wholeheartedly. But I don't think it's the objectively correct "right" way. Personally, I care a lot about both the game and the hobby. I still think of AoS as a game. I probably wouldn't bother with the models if there wasn't a game to play. I spend a lot of time analyzing other people's games, analyzing strategy, doing "mathhammer." I enjoy all of this. But I don't actually play much because I don't want to put a grey plastic army on the table and I am very picky about painting. I paint slowly and I do a lot of conversions. I like to have a strong theme in my army, at least in terms of aesthetics if not composition. Even if I want to make a list building choice for competitive reasons, I still think about the lore behind that choice. I consider myself pretty competitive, although I'm flexible and prefer to adapt to what my opponent wants. Am I doing AoS "wrong?" 

If you really are mostly a hobbyist who doesn't think the game is important, then why does it bother you how other people play the game? Does it make painting less fun? I am asking this honestly because I really don't understand it. 

[Nin Win]

It becomes an issue when the differing priorities fragment a local community.  When a subset of the local Warmachine/Hordes players started travelling to all the big tournaments and started playing absolutely every game as a tournament practice game, it drove all the non competitive people away from the weekly gaming day.  Then they came back from a big tournament with a bunch of mousepad terrain templates and soon flat tables with no terrain drove away the more hobby minded (the local warmachine hobbyists still post the occasional picture of their painted models, but most haven't played in a long, long time).  In conversation some said the only reason they don't switch to printed discs to represent the models is that it's often hard to identify the disc from across the table compared to even an unpainted miniature.  And that the events they travel too require miniatures.  Though one guy did bring some printed standees on bases to a couple of weekly gaming days.

It is definitely not one big tent we can all gather under if people start doing *that* to your local gaming community. 

I actually think GW's current marketing of Collect, Build, Paint, Play captures the hobby I'm interested in in its totality.  For me all miniatures and terrain on the table top being painted and finished is not an optional part of the hobby.  If someone decides getting to playing is more important to them and skips painting their miniatures (or, as I have seen, doesn't even finish assembling the miniatures leaving off heads, arms or weapons) I will not be the one on the other side of the table from them.  Nor will I consider what they are doing in that moment to be part of the hobby I enjoy.

[Ollie Grimwood]

To be honest the internet can be a pretty negative place generally. TGA does tend to avoid this trend though. I suggest use of the ignore function and to remember talking about toy soldiers isn't a competitive sport.


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[Earthtremor]

6 hours ago, Nin Win said:

For me all miniatures and terrain on the table top being painted and finished is not an optional part of the hobby.  If someone decides getting to playing is more important to them and skips painting their miniatures (or, as I have seen, doesn't even finish assembling the miniatures leaving off heads, arms or weapons) I will not be the one on the other side of the table from them.  Nor will I consider what they are doing in that moment to be part of the hobby I enjoy.

I've followed this thread with interest and it is a debate well worth having, but this comment really stuck with me as just as destructive for a community as the actions of the 'ultra competitive' gamers you are most frustrated with. 

I would be mortified if I turned up at my local group and someone outright refused to play me because my army wasn't fully completed. There can be a huge range of reasons for people to want to play but haven't fully built/completed their armies yet. As has been mentioned in other posts.

For many people at my club it is as much a social event as a gaming night with a massive range of people from pure narrative hobbyists to hardcore tournament players. People proxy things, want to try out a new armies, have only just started, are worried about painting etc... But everyone is welcomed by the crowd, in fact we have a few players who never have a fully completed army and they aren't even 'competitive' players, they just don't have time to get much done due to work/family whatever. 

Whether it is competitive gamers, fluff hobbyists, painting maestros, narrative writers etc... It is the elitist 'my hobby is better than your hobby' attitude that ruins local scenes more than anything else and rather than ostracising that element perhaps compromise on both sides finds a better solution? 

As an aside, I'm playing a range of games today using part built grey plastic SCE and probably a number of proxies to try out all the different things that faction does before I commit to buying hundreds of pounds of models. So a snapshot of me would paint me in a terrible light by you. But I've got about 4000 points of beautifully painted greenskins and love my fluff and narrative stuff and like trying to run unusual lists. I also like to be competitive because the point of playing a game is to win, otherwise I'd just be an artist, not a hobbyist and gamer.

[Nin Win]

It was a necessary decisions given the local situation.  And my gaming experience has improved in general since I implemented it.  Also, with Skirmsh and AoS doing well in small games being a thing, the barrier to getting to the table has never been lower for Warhammer.

And nope, having standards doesn't ruin a local scene no matter how people without them want to misrepresent it as elitism. There's a local convention that switched to painted only and it's attendance keeps going up year over year.  Big tournaments all over the world have painting requirements and those events keep on growing as well.

Make the switch to painted only improve local communities.  Your games will be better looking so more people will be excited about them.  People will step up to teach painting.  Smaller model count games will thrive while large ones will be true spectacles.  People will have much more ownership over their hobby because they put in the effort.

There's also a really fun army building cycle where you paint up your small force (AoS Skirmish?  500 points normal?  Path to Glory?) and then you play a game or two and then decide what to add and then build and paint it.  Then repeat.  It's a fantastic way to build an army and if you make a commitment to no unpainted miniatures, it's a positive feedback loop that will keep building on itself.

 

 

[swarmofseals]

16 hours ago, Nin Win said:

It becomes an issue when the differing priorities fragment a local community.  When a subset of the local Warmachine/Hordes players started travelling to all the big tournaments and started playing absolutely every game as a tournament practice game, it drove all the non competitive people away from the weekly gaming day.  

It is definitely not one big tent we can all gather under if people start doing *that* to your local gaming community. 

I actually think GW's current marketing of Collect, Build, Paint, Play captures the hobby I'm interested in in its totality.  For me all miniatures and terrain on the table top being painted and finished is not an optional part of the hobby.  If someone decides getting to playing is more important to them and skips painting their miniatures (or, as I have seen, doesn't even finish assembling the miniatures leaving off heads, arms or weapons) I will not be the one on the other side of the table from them.  Nor will I consider what they are doing in that moment to be part of the hobby I enjoy.

First off, I totally support your decision. If you want to play fully painted armies only, that is absolutely your choice. I try to hold myself to this same standard, although I will relax it on occasion.

I do have a couple of questions though -- why did what those tournament players do wreck your local community? You say it was a subset of the local players, suggesting that were still folks around who wanted to focus on putting thematic or aesthetic armies on the table. Surely that subset could still play among themselves, and the competitive set could play among themselves, yes? And if someone wanted to float between the two, they easily could by bringing a nice, painted, reasonable list to play with the hobby crowd and a tuned tournament list (painted or not) to play with the tournament crowd, yes? You say it drove all the non-competitive people away -- why did those people not just play each other?

One possible scenario that I can easily imagine is that the competitive players were being rude and taking up all the space. In that case, why not talk to the manager of the store/club? Assuming you guys are paying customers too, should you not also have access to the gaming tables? If the manager/owner refuses to help, then you can always threaten (or actually) take your business elsewhere, along with the rest of the group. In that sense, the community has become fragmented but it's hardly dead, and now you know which people really share your vision for the hobby. You may have fewer opponents, but I bet you will enjoy your games a lot more. And if the issue was a concern of space, then the local community probably needed to fragment anyway. If there were far more players than tables, then it's arguably a good thing that a subset of the players find a different place to play (or encourage the store to host a second game night). 

Anyway, you're perfectly welcome to consider the people who play with unpainted or unassembled models to not be a part of your hobby. I would hope that you'd at least cut a little slack to someone who is just getting started and putting in a good faith effort to paint and assemble, but even if you choose not to that's absolutely your prerogative. That said, I don't see how these people existing can ruin the hobby for you, especially if you don't even consider them to be pursuing the same hobby as you do, unless of course every single person goes over to "the dark side" and you can't find anyone to play against.

[Nin Win]

I only mean that I consider playing with non painted miniatures to not be part of my hobby, and only about *the* hobby in an ideal or aspirational sense.   Painted only has been a norm in historical minatures for decades and I'm continuing alng that branch of the gaming tradition.

Most weeks each month became a tournament so the pressganger (prvateer's now defunct volunteer program) could claim it to get free models as a reward for running an event.  So if you wanted to play in that store on a Saturday it was enter the mini tournament and play who you are paired with or don't play.  Not every week, but often.

The person working at the store didn't know anything about any gaming other than board games and was like "this guy is an official event organizer with the manufacturer, so we'll go with his plan.".   The actual owner/manager was an absentee business owner for the last two years the store lasted before it shut down.  Just popped in a few times a week at opening to deal with anything they absolutely had to.

For the weeks that weren't mini tournaments, you can't necessarily tell what your opponent is going to be like and there were loads of people who showed up, lost the game in turn 2 to one of the tournament circuit regulars and just never came back.  People tend not to like games where setup and deployment is longer than the game itself.  I don't know if it's a Canadian cultural thing, but if you go to an event and don't enjoy yourself, you don't complain, say non committal things about it and just never come back.  I know a handful of them still play at home with specific individuals, but they tend not to show up to public events after an experience like that.

[Nin Win]

Actually, it's more than that.  Practices and approaches have social momentum.  If I go to a local club or store and have a particular approach it's going to impart some of that approach to the larger group.  So when you have a handful of guys who are serious enough about a game to travel across a continent to play in the largest tournaments and they are there, week n and week out, it's going to impact the local community for good or for ill.  It just so happened that one of them had pushing tournament play as a means of getting free miniatures, which magnified it further.

A group of people that enthusiastic about the hobby should have a positive impact, but they didn't.  There were even times that one of them would brag about beating someone so bad they quit the game.

[Nin Win]

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I would hope that you'd at least cut a little slack to someone who is just getting started and putting in a good faith effort to paint and assemble, but even if you choose not to that's absolutely your prerogative. 

Totally.  I do say things like "you bought some daemons?  Cool!  Those models are awesome.  Let me know when you get them painted up so we can get a game in with them in the table." I'm also one of the first people to turn gaming days into group painting time for those interested in learning.

If I'm in a situation where someone asks me if I want to play a game and I say yes and they pull out unpainted models, I apologise and say playing with only painted on the table is something I do now.  In the past we just played a smaller game with what they did have painted.  I also usually bring a loaner force if the game is small enough.  And the new Skirmish mode is ideal for this.

Our local skirmish group has all just divied up factions within the grand alliances so we'll have loads of painted miniatures to use for new people.  It's also a norm in historical gaming to provide all the miniatures and terrain and invite people for a game you are running.  It's super easy to do that for AoS Skirmish.

Quote

That said, I don't see how these people existing can ruin the hobby for you, especially if you don't even consider them to be pursuing the same hobby as you do, unless of course every single person goes over to "the dark side" and you can't find anyone to play against.

I consider it a matter of social inertia.  You get to a point where unpainted or even not completely assembled becomes the norm if enough people do it.

[swarmofseals]

@Nin Win That situation at your local store sounds pretty terrible; I don't blame you for quitting that scene at all. I'm very competitive at some games (Magic primarily), and even in most hardcore Magic communities doing something like bragging that you made someone quit would quickly mark you out as being utterly toxic (and yet in some places players like that are still tolerated). It sounds like things went beyond just having some competitive gamers around. You also had a store culture that almost exclusively catered to that playstyle (and for borderline unethical reasons to boot) and no organized group to combat the culture shift.

I absolutely agree with you that social inertia/momentum are phenomena that need to be considered. This is partly why I think being constructive is so important. There are lots of steps that can be taken to create positive change, and the hobby will be a lot healthier if we focus on that. Of course, I know that you know that because I've seen some of the great stuff that you've posted. Advocating for your own playstyle, fostering your own local community and working toward getting support from your FLGS/club, and finding like-minded people are all far better than demonizing those who have different priorities. Of course, people like the ****** you describe perhaps deserve a bit of demonization...

On a slightly different note, I'm not Canadian but I do think I get the culture that you are describing. I'd be on the looking for any new folks that have the misfortune of running into the local sharks, and if they look like they aren't having a good time I'd make a point of approaching them after their game to let them know that a lot of you don't like playing that guy, and maybe try coming to this or that open play night, or to maybe talk to Steve over there who you might have a lot more fun playing against.. Of course, this assumes that your store is supporting your group of hobby focused gamers at all, which in your case seems not to have been the case. 

[Rogue Mind]

@swarmofsealsvery interesting topic you have raised here.  I've joined this Forum as I want to get into AoS, and it was interesting to read your posts.  I'm quite new to tabletop gaming and got into gaming around two years ago with Guild Ball.  This is a kickstarter game which have exploded.  As the community expanded the game got more competitive and the meta refined, I found the main forum had a lot negativity on certain mechanics or models.  This actually put me off going to the forum.

 

I found when people find an obstacle or mechanic that really challenge their playstyle they only look at the negative points and do not see what opportunities to imitate the issue.  Bit like what you discussed about the Games People Play.

 

I recently play a game where the opposition rolled some appalling result and they threw a hissy fit, which I found pitiful when a grown person can be like this.

 

It was interesting to read your initial post about people's mental attitude and how it impacts them or amplified certain characteristic depending on the situation. 

 

Having been in the hobby for couple of years, I do find there is a sense of immaturity in the community, in a way people can throw their toys out the pram.  I'm up for immaturity fun but the hissy fits are just an embarrassment, if you put things in perspective. 

[Nin Win]

I also play magic regularly (Modern format mostly monthly events big enough for 4 rounds and sometimes a cut to top 8) and totally get the competitive side of gaming.

I guess when it comes down to it, I support an openness to all play styles but have noticed that when that is not reciprocated locally, it's been the tournament players that have been the ones pissing on other people's games.  

I don't know how many times I've seen an xwing game going on and someone comes by and starts criticizing their choice of upgrade cards not getting that they weren't trying to optimize their lists.  There's been times where people have been playing through the scenarios in the various XWing ship boxes and one tournament player or another saunters by and says something like "after you guys are done fooling around does the winner want to come play a real game?" 

While I'm sure they mean it in a friendly trash talking sort of way, but wow does that have a chilling effect.  I don't want that sort of thing anywhere near my Age of Sigmar community.  I've seen these sort of instances a solid 25 times since XWing came out.

One factor is that when you have an overly polite local culture, those willing to be a bit rude can have an impact way out of proportion to their numbers.  Five people willing to give uninvited criticism of people's army choices can have a massive influence even if there are 30+ players.  When the strategy most often employed to deal with rudeness is to avoid confrontation and then just never come back, a small group of people can easily drive away those who don't share their point of view. 

While I get issues with local players can only be addressed at the local level, I know enough other people are having issues with problematic competitive players that I can totally understand why there's this push back and many instances of overstating things and unfairly lumping all competitive players in with the problem players.

And don't get me started on the inter store and club politics where people won't go to events at a particular place or if a particular group is involved in organizing it.  I truly live in a gaming wasteland. 

Well to be fair, for all the problems with other games, AoS and from what I hear 40k, has actually quite a positive local community.  They more have issues with the store and club politics side of things but have found their way through it by having a no judgement and no commercial promotion policy for their online discussion group when it comes to which store you buy your stuff from, whether or not you use resin conversion bits from Kromlech or Anvil or whatever.

[swarmofseals]

4 hours ago, Nin Win said:

Other stuff

I truly live in a gaming wasteland. 

Yeah, I will readily admit that in my experience a higher percentage of extremely rude gamers have been on the competitive end of the spectrum, although I have seen some more casual players that can really throw a good tantrum when things don't go their way. I see your point about how the local culture makes dealing with that more difficult. I've actually been surprised at how often this issue comes up on r/magictcg and how often people advise to talk to the store owner about it. I think its good advice, but only helpful if you don't have an absentee ownership or if the person doing the organizing isn't part of the problematic clique itself. 

Regarding the gaming wasteland, I definitely know what that feels like. In the late 90's I drove about 1.5 hours each way just to play 40k. I couldn't find a game of WHFB at all anywhere.