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Rafal Maj

Age of Sigmar Skirmish - Full Points List

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I'm thinking of just using the Skirmish rules, but for more meat and balance probably porting in the Advancement stuff and the Rules of Three from Hinterlands, as the complete reknown costs are right there in one document with Forgotten Heroes.  (Other than modelling and painting, this is my first (and with a lack of local scene, likely only) foray into AoS so I don't own the rules material for the larger game like the GHB).

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Kinda disappointed with the new Skirmish Rules in White Dwarf. How is everyone else feeling?

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About the same.  It's fine content wise, I guess.  Going to smaller table size is probably good.  Splitting it across two volumes is annoying.  Hopefully it inspires some 40k readers to give AoS a go through Skirmish.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, TheHarrower said:

Kinda disappointed with the new Skirmish Rules in White Dwarf. How is everyone else feeling?

Is it only the publishing or something else?

I mean changing the points should help because it too them a near eternity to make an errata when a New army came out. I made tables for my fanmade armies, which isn't nessessary anymore with The new rules.

And most heroes were way to expensive for the starting size of 25. Now most heroes should be playable.

Edited by EMMachine

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20 hours ago, TheHarrower said:

Kinda disappointed with the new Skirmish Rules in White Dwarf. How is everyone else feeling?

Yes and no really... it certainly addresses some of my issues with the previous rules, but it does feel like a very slight update. But then, as a White Dwarf only thing, I'm not sure how much more they could have done - IMO the only way to *actually* balance Skirmish and make it feel like a properly complete game is to give all the units new warscrolls that are just for Skirmish, which would obviously be a huge undertaking and require way too many pages.

This feels like a stopgap ahead of a Kill Team-style full boxed game, to me. 

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Posted (edited)

I want to remind that Mordheim also appeared in White Dwarf at first and then it was released as a box game. There's still hope for something more later. Treat this as a stopgap and nice update and you will not be disappointed.

Edited by michu

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I love it. Yeah could have been more... expansive. But like @michusays it’s a part one of a series. Who knows what it’ll build up to? 

For me the addition for extra points for specialists and champions feels like a real step forward. Now just excitedly waiting on the campaign rules. 

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For me the extra points for champions and special weapons was like "what?"  As I play stormcast 5 points here and 5 points there is no big deal relative to the cost of the members of my warband, but my opponents who play cheaper things are paying the same 5 points for the gor champions, ungor halfhorns, nightgoblin leaders and so forth.  Their warbands went up tons in points compared to mine and others who play more elite stuff.  So we're sticking with no extra points for that stuff so everyone pays the same proportionate cost (zero).  It really should have been a proportionate cost.

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Posted (edited)

Could always house rule it.  Units under ten points only pay, say 2 points for a Champion or Specialist?

I know in Hinterlands, Champs and Specialists are free, but you can only have one for every three fighters total in you warband from that warscroll.  So to have two Irondrake upgrades, you'd have to take at least six of them in the warband.

I know in Hinterlands it was free to take upgrades, but only 1 for every 3 total fighters in the warband from that warscroll, but it had to be free when the renown was as low as 1pt for many units. 

Edited by Aegisgrimm

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Locally we're playing a house ruled mix of the AoS booklet, these rules (mostly the scenarios and playing on the smaller table size) and Hinterlands, so we've been doing the Hinterlands way most of the time.  Sometimes we don't worry about it like if a player was really excited to paint something and didn't quite paint enough normal troopers in time for the club day.

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On 1/7/2019 at 12:09 AM, EMMachine said:

Is it only the publishing or something else?

I don't mind the publishing. It just doesn't really work as a game. It needs tweaks like Hinterlands or some of the other supplements that have come before. With Wrath and Rapture, Bloodcrushers do D3 Mortal Wounds on a 2+ when they charge. That unit is broken beyond belief in skirmish, not to mention quite a few other ones. It's just disappointing they wait so long to update the rules, and just drop this on us. I don't get it.

On 1/7/2019 at 5:23 AM, robinlvalentine said:

This feels like a stopgap ahead of a Kill Team-style full boxed game, to me. 

It certainly is, but they could have made it more playable. The issue as I see it is people looking to get into AoS get their hands on these rules and realize how broken it is. It does more to put people off than get them into the game. And I disagree that you need tons of rules. Forgotten Heroes has 1 page of rules and creates a far more balanced experience.

On 1/7/2019 at 1:23 PM, Nin Win said:

For me the extra points for champions and special weapons was like what?

Yeah, I agree 100%. I don't understand what the point of it is. Champions with an extra attack or +1 to hit aren't breaking the game. Seems an odd place to try and add some balance. They even talk about some options being useless. So why bother at all? A better option would have been to pay x additional points for a model that has an attack that does mortal wounds. That at least makes sense.

On 1/7/2019 at 8:21 PM, Aegisgrimm said:

Could always house rule it.

Sure, but that isn't the point. I can house rule anything. As the stewards of the game, GW is responsible for providing the best experience for their players. I get there is a culture difference and a disconnect as folks across the pond in the UK are far more agreeable to that sort of thing. Here in the US, everything is codified and needs to be spelled out. You think by now they would understand that better.

I'm really not trying to dump on GW for this. I love where the company has gone the past year. The releases have been amazing. Everything is well thought out and done so well. I guess because of that, I just expected more. This is a pretty big misstep in my opinion. One that I'm going to try and rectify.

Edited by TheHarrower

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10 hours ago, TheHarrower said:

Here in the US, everything is codified and needs to be spelled out. You think by now they would understand that better.

Not having a go but maybe they do understand that and the British company, staffed by British people just don't feel the need to jump to do the bidding of a hypothetical US audience? For over 3 decades the spiritual essence of the game has been that kind of loose, use this as a starting point to create your own game vibe. 

To me it feels like the long term direction of travel has always been towards the kind of game you'd like, something that's more nailed down, calcified and codified but every step you take down that path it's almost impossible to go back, so the slower the journey the better I say.

And importantly as you yourself say this way the option is always there for you to...

10 hours ago, TheHarrower said:

try and rectify.

 

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11 hours ago, TheHarrower said:

I don't mind the publishing. It just doesn't really work as a game. It needs tweaks like Hinterlands or some of the other supplements that have come before.

I think the main problem is, that "other supplements that have come before" were all fanmade. So these are not in the Skirmish invention pool (or not yet).

There are two possibilites.

We can give GW Feedback to the White Dwarf rules (and the rules get improved with the final release) or the problems can be fixed by houserules like it is at the moment with the old Skirmish Book

 

11 hours ago, TheHarrower said:

With Wrath and Rapture, Bloodcrushers do D3 Mortal Wounds on a 2+ when they charge. That unit is broken beyond belief in skirmish, not to mention quite a few other ones. It's just disappointing they wait so long to update the rules, and just drop this on us. I don't get it.

As long as units don't get there own Warscrolls for Skirmish (like it is done with Killteam in 40k), there will be units that are overpowered or useless.

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It isn't all that bad in my mind. Actually it's very good. Most if this discussion is very reminiscent of when AoS dropped to me. I just returned to the hobby, mainly due to AoS, I loved the open setting, flexible but simple rules. It was fun to play again vs. my last experiences before that with shifting through 300page rulebooks, cross referencing them against FAQ's, army books and the lot. 

AoS was such a breath of fresh air, but people didn't like it for being unbalanced, not clear enough, loopholes you can see from space etc. 

To me Skirmish feel like that again. For me it's amazing. My friends who play boardgames can get into this in one game again. Common sense in changing the rules is needed but that never bothered me in Warhammer. 

So all arguments about balance, ambiguity etc, are fair. But you only solve it by more expansive rules, and for me that not wanted.

On 1/7/2019 at 8:23 PM, Nin Win said:

For me the extra points for champions and special weapons was like "what?"  As I play stormcast 5 points here and 5 points there is no big deal relative to the cost of the members of my warband, but my opponents who play cheaper things are paying the same 5 points for the gor champions, ungor halfhorns, nightgoblin leaders and so forth.  Their warbands went up tons in points compared to mine and others who play more elite stuff.  So we're sticking with no extra points for that stuff so everyone pays the same proportionate cost (zero).  It really should have been a proportionate cost.

But your also paying for a scoring model in scenarrios. So your choosing to invest those points in objective play as well. So with your 3 stormcast champions? That's a though choice? More bodies? Or more scoring models, because if you only take one and I take it out... you can only score with your Hero. 

I reckon it balances itself out, but there is only one way to find out. Who here has actual games under their belt with the new rules? Me tomorrow, so if that changes my opinion i'll report back ;) But I think I'll have a lot of fun with these rules. 

Cant wait for the campaign expansion .

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I still kind of think I'll finally get into Skirmish by picking up one of the original Skirmish books and coupling it with Hinterlands, rather than getting all the White Dwarfs.  The two stores I frequent still have a couple of copies, so maybe I'll just wait until the White Dwarf ones get printed on their own.

Unless the scenarios are absolutely stellar, so far it just sounds like a reprint plus some slight changes, and not even some of the decently major changes that were truly needed, at that (like limiting mortal wounds in such a small-scale game, so otherwise cool models like the Knight-Incantor don't immediately break the game with one successful casting).

I mean, everyone here seemed to be having a blast with the fan mods added to the old rules, so I figure I'll give it a try.

Edited by Aegisgrimm
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So with War Cry announced, it's pretty safe to say that Skirmish is dead. Kinda odd they went with rules in White Dwarf and then dropped the War Cry trailer right after. In any case, Skirmish in White Dwarf fixed the need for me to keep updating Forgotten Heroes. I'll probably just start building terrain and painting various warbands to tide me over till War Cry drops. What is everyone else planning on doing?

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AoS2 has been pushing more and more of a faction's special abilities and flavour into allegiance abilities, command traits, artefacts, battle traits and so on.  Much like how in 40k the stratagems can contain a lot of the theme of the army.  Or the tactics or whatever the equivalent is called in Killteam

Skirmish not having those except for the grand alliances definitely stands out a lot more than it did when the first skirmish book came out.  And since we like those elements we end up having to house rule and tweak and whatnot to get them to work.

In the end we decided that the flavour and fun of the allegiance abilities was more important than the individual model activation and low model count of skirmish and we just sort of stopped playing skirmish.  Like Kill Team, skirmish needs faction specific elements rather than just grand alliance based elements.

Edited by Nin Win

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On 2/18/2019 at 9:04 AM, TheHarrower said:

What is everyone else planning on doing?

 

After waiting a bit and testing in a couple of games, my player group decided to go back to the original Skirmish rules and the 1st ed. AoS rules, as they work fairly well together.

I have to admit, I was a bit sour with the rules update at the beginning. Not because I think they are bad rules, that isn`t the case, it`s the same reason why I actually didn`t like the AoS 2 ruleset that much - it kind of took away the two big strengths of the game: simplicity and small army/warband sizes. The size of 250 points for example almost doubled the size of my mixed destruction warband. What has been:

- Savage Big Boss

- Morrboy Boss, Morrboy

- Gitmob Grot Boss, Gitmob Grot

is now:

- Savage Big Boss

- Morrboy Boss, Morrboy Musician, Morrboy, Morrboy, Morrboy

- Gitmob Grot Boss, Gitmob Grot Musician, Gitmob Grot, Gitmob Grot, Ironguts Grot, Spiderfang Spider Rider

 

I basically just filled up to meet the minimum requirement of 250 points.  It`s the same with my Ironjawz warband, where a Warchanter and two Ardboys all of a sudden became a Warchanter and ten Ardboys. Basically the minimum size that we usually played, around 30 renown, has risen to approximately 60 renown. Now don`t get me wrong, that is still fun, it just doesn`t carry the strengths I mentioned anymore. Especially at 30 renown you can be sure that a game will last one hour max (we actually had the feeling, that the amount of renown rougly equaled the amount of playtime in minutes per match).

What will definitely follow over time, is a rules PDF where we combine both into one file, the AoS1 rules and Skirmish1. This way we can also leave out what is replaced in the Skirmish book for AoS1 anyway.

 

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