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someone2040

GHB2 insights from Skirmish

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Hey fellas,

So I've got my book, played a few games of Skirmish, and came back home and immediately bashed some stuff into a spreadsheet. There's obviously been rumours that the points in Skirmish are actually based on the new GHB points, so it's interesting to see what insights we might be able to glean from the Skirmish book.

For my comparison, I got the current points of a unit, divided by number of models, divided it by 5, and then rounded it to compare the renown to what's in the book. I won't reveal the renown, just whether or not the renown in the book is cheaper or more expensive than the current calculation.

 

Note: Some of the changes may be due to rounding. As an example, White Lions cost 180 points currently. Using the formula, equates to 3.6 or rounded, 4 renown. GW may have just decided to round it down in this instance, instead of up, to end up at their renown of 3.

Order

White Lion Chariots - Cheaper

White Lions - Cheaper

Phoenix Guard - Cheaper 

Swordmasters - Cheaper

Dark Riders - Cheaper

Sisters of the Watch - Cheaper

Black Guard - Cheaper

Executioners - Cheaper

Witch Aelves - Cheaper

Demigryph Knights - Cheaper

Freeguild Outriders/Pistoliers - Cheaper

Fyreslayers - Equal to GHB2 trial points

Terradon Riders - Cheaper

Saurus Oldblood - More Expensive

Skink Starpriest - Cheaper

Saurus Knights - Cheaper

Prosectuors with Stormcall Javelins - More Expensive

Retributors - Cheaper

Branchwych - Cheaper

Kurnoth Hunters - More Expensive

Spite-Revenants - Cheaper

Tree-Revenants - Cheaper

Endrinmaster - Cheaper

 

Chaos

Chaos Knights - Cheaper

Chaos Spawn - Cheaper

Flamers of Tzeentch - Cheaper

Screamers of Tzeentch - Cheaper

Aspiring Deathbringer with Goreaxe and Skullhammer - More Expensive

Mighty Skullcrushers - Cheaper

Skullreapers - More expensive

Khorgoraths - Cheaper

Warpfire Thrower - More Expensive

Gaunt Summoner - More Expensive

Great Bray Shaman - Cheaper

Varanguard - Cheaper

 

Destruction

Felwater Troggoths - Cheaper

Orruk Gore-Gruntas - Cheaper

Grot Scraplauncher - Cheaper

Ironblaster - Cheaper

Ironguts - Cheaper

Leadbelchers - Cheaper

Savage Big Boss - More Expensive

Mournfang Pack - Cheaper

 

Death

Necromancer - Cheaper

Crypt Horrors - More Expensive

Abhorrant Ghoul King - More Expensive

 

 

And that's it. There could be stuff I've missed (or had incorrect points in my spreadsheet, I originally built it when GHB1 came out). 

Edited by someone2040
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So now for my thoughts.

Given how closely things align to the formula, it looks like this could be a good indication of either points being trialed, or those in GHB2 depending on how close the new edition is. The only one that stands out as "This ability might not work so is cheaper in Skirmish" is the Endrinmaster who has no skyveseels to heal.

 

It looks like various units are getting a points decrease likely of about 20 points. I would probably say all instances are warranted, or don't look that strange. I'm not sure about all the elite foot Aelves getting a decrease, I've always enjoyed my elite infantry but maybt being 1 wound means they don't quite stand up.

I'm pretty disappointed to see no changes to Greenskinz in terms of points. However, they may get a warscroll change (+1 Orruk wound) which in that case it would be fine I think.

 

In terms of more expensive. Stormcall Javelins have always been a bit weird that they're cheaper (or even a separate warscroll if I'm being honest). So it looks like they might finally be the same cost as regular Prosecutors (Although, god knows why this wasn't done when they last updated Stormcast).

I don't know enough about the Bonesplittaz, but do here that the Savage Big Boss is a part of the problem, and I'm sure the Kunnin' Ruk itself will increase in points.

What's absolutely bizarre is that Tzaangor Skyfires weren't modified at all. Even without destiny dice, they are still far superior to anything else at 160 points. It boggle my mind, it really does.

 

Overall, if we do go on the basis that GHB2 points led to the renown calculation,  it seems Games Workshop are taking a quite tame approach in point readjustment. I suspect the hope is that if they take a light gentle touch, and change some of the more overcosted units and some of the more undercosted units, that the game will become a lot more healthy. With a few notable exceptions *cough*skyfires*cough* it probably could be true as long as other things outside this are adjusted.

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i can see skullreapers getting expensive only in skirmish, as their ability to keep a tally on kills is broken by the unit of 1 rules for skirmish. I've ran into this playing hinterlands, and it makes them overpowered when taken as a single model. In normal aos though, they are fine, so i can see these points as "costly because of ability"

Same thing for Retributors. The blasted to ashes ability is kind of wasted when most things have 1 wound to begin with in skirmish. They move too slow to benefit much in this type of game as well. Im counting them as "cheaper due to ability"

The aspiring deathbringer on the other hand is pretty bonkers, in the same vein of the savage orruk boss. they have army buffing abilities that overwhelm the game, and in this kind of environment make them super competative choices.

 

So all in all, there are plenty of GHB2 points, but i think quite a few more than what people expected, is just costing based on the game's nature.

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I dont think GH2 will present most units cheaper. They could but the reason as to why we see it in Skirmish likely has to do with how abilities interract. I dont think GH2 was used as a template for cost calculation. I do think GH was used as a cost template and many things got a rounded down cost if they wernt obviously doing the effective work of one model.

Aura buffs like the Saurus and Deathbringer have are really good for skirmish. Same with ranged attacks. Basically I wouldnt read much into this.

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On the other hand units like Kurnoth hunters should be worse in skirmish, as their damage doesn't carry over. Still they seem to be more expensive. IMO the Fyreslayers being spot on the revised cost would be quite good indication that there might be something to this. Also most of the stuff that is cheaper is actually stuff that doesn't see much play, so it would be natural that they would be units that gets cheaper also in GHB2.

 

It can be mix of both, but I can't believe that they have used much effort for balancing and testing this system, based on how quickly it was rolled out and how light it is ruleswise.

Edited by Jamopower
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So glad you did this! Me and @Chris Tomlin spotted a few of these (like the Kurnoth Hunters). One you have missed off is the Abhorrent Ghould King who seems like he will clock in at 140pts if the renown is based off GHB2.

Hearing Demigryphs will be getting cheaper is amazing news. They could go down from 200pts to 160pts if the theory is correct! 

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I really hope Crypt Horrors don't get more expensive, they are IMHO a bit too expensive right now as it is.

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8 minutes ago, bottle said:

So glad you did this! Me and @Chris Tomlin spotted a few of these (like the Kurnoth Hunters). One you have missed off is the Abhorrent Ghould King who seems like he will clock in at 140pts if the renown is based off GHB2.

Hearing Demigryphs will be getting cheaper is amazing news. They could go down from 200pts to 160pts if the theory is correct! 

Thanks for picking that up, I had it with the correct points, but I eyeballed things when writing the post, so obviously missed one (or maybe two, who knows!).

I'm really excited about both Demigryph's and Chaos Knights potentially getting cheaper. Brilliant models which are pretty iconic pieces of their factions. I really want more Demigryph's for my Freeguild, but with how bad they are currently... it's just not worth it.

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8 hours ago, Jamopower said:

I can't believe that they have used much effort for balancing and testing this system, based on how quickly it was rolled out and how light it is ruleswise.

I believe you are 100% right on this. As said, how I see it is that they used Generals Handbook as the baseline and experimented with it a little for this.

The thing is, AoS' costs are really good, as in more than 9 out of 10 units are correctly costed. There are certainly examples of units and battalions who arn't but the reflection of that is only magnified by those who only use that model and basically look for all the models in a particular faction who are slightly undercosted and combine them all together.

The beauty of Skirmish games in this way is that they are dicey and that's a good thing. Things stop being that the moment we're talking about 30-40 rolls and suddenly the % exactly begin to reflect to what is expected. For 1-4 dice rolls, luckily, this is less the case.

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17 hours ago, someone2040 said:

What's absolutely bizarre is that Tzaangor Skyfires weren't modified at all. Even without destiny dice, they are still far superior to anything else at 160 points. It boggle my mind, it really does.

I'm pretty sure you get to use destiny dice if you run pure tzeentch. It says allegiance abilities are used.

 

Also, gaunt summoner hasn't changed in price (the everchosen version is the 120 pt disc version).

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2 hours ago, decker_cky said:

I'm pretty sure you get to use destiny dice if you run pure tzeentch. It says allegiance abilities are used.

 

Also, gaunt summoner hasn't changed in price (the everchosen version is the 120 pt disc version).

You don't get destiny dice. It says you get alliegance abilities from the GHB not faction specific alliegance abilities from Battletomes. It's actually very clear on this point.

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11 hours ago, Fungrim said:

How's the Megaboss on Maw-Krusha looking?

It's not in Skirmish. It's too large of a model and doesn't suit the setting, so you'll have to wait for GHB2 to find out that.

2 hours ago, decker_cky said:

I'm pretty sure you get to use destiny dice if you run pure tzeentch. It says allegiance abilities are used.

 

Also, gaunt summoner hasn't changed in price (the everchosen version is the 120 pt disc version).

Thanks for the catch, I've fixed that up now. I also had a sneaking suspicion that I missed another one, which was the Great Bray Shaman is cheaper.

You can't use Destiny Dice in Skirmish. There's a section on Allegiance Abilities which basically states that you can only use the Allegiance Ability for the Grand Alliances. To quote the last sentence from the Allegiance Abilities section

"However, in a Skirmish battle, your warband can only use the allegiance abilities of the Grand Alliance from which they hail". Of course, when I played yesterday we completely forgot about them either way!

18 hours ago, hellalugosi said:

i can see skullreapers getting expensive only in skirmish, as their ability to keep a tally on kills is broken by the unit of 1 rules for skirmish. I've ran into this playing hinterlands, and it makes them overpowered when taken as a single model. In normal aos though, they are fine, so i can see these points as "costly because of ability"

Same thing for Retributors. The blasted to ashes ability is kind of wasted when most things have 1 wound to begin with in skirmish. They move too slow to benefit much in this type of game as well. Im counting them as "cheaper due to ability"

The aspiring deathbringer on the other hand is pretty bonkers, in the same vein of the savage orruk boss. they have army buffing abilities that overwhelm the game, and in this kind of environment make them super competative choices.

 

So all in all, there are plenty of GHB2 points, but i think quite a few more than what people expected, is just costing based on the game's nature.

I can't speak much for Skullreapers, but I disagree on the Retributors. There are plenty of things that run around these days that have multiple wounds. Most Orruks, Chaos Warriors, Stormcast Eternals, Tzaangors, etc. Not only that, but every warband is going to have a Hero who also has multiple wounds. You could be right, but I don't know if it's enough of a difference to justify making them cheaper.

18 hours ago, Killax said:

I dont think GH2 will present most units cheaper. They could but the reason as to why we see it in Skirmish likely has to do with how abilities interract. I dont think GH2 was used as a template for cost calculation. I do think GH was used as a cost template and many things got a rounded down cost if they wernt obviously doing the effective work of one model.

Aura buffs like the Saurus and Deathbringer have are really good for skirmish. Same with ranged attacks. Basically I wouldnt read much into this.

Just for the record, out of the 255 units in Skirmish, only 45 units have points that differ from the trial GHB2 units. I certainly wouldn't consider that most units, but on the other hand, I don't think a lot of them make a whole lot of sense "Just to do for Skirmish". And there are definitely some units that aren't effected by rounding.

A good example are Swordmasters. There is nothing on their warscroll that indicates they are worse in Skirmish. If anything, I would say they're pretty darn good with a nice elite statline, 4+ save, re-rolling saves in the shooting phase and re-roll 1's to hit. Their current points cost of 200 for 5 nicely rounds them out to 4 renown per model. So then, why are they cheaper?

 

Whether or not we should read 'too' much into this, at least I think it's an interesting discussion point given we're likely about have an Age of Sigmar drought for about 2 months :).

If the discussion is on the basis of 'These are all true', then there can be interesting points such as - If most the Aelven elite units are dropping in points, does it make them more viable? Does it make a mixed Aelven army more viable?

What about Mournfang, do they make pure Beastclaw more attractive (Probably hard to consider without the rest of the points).

If Ironguts decreased, will we see Irongutstars again? Something we did see for a little bit of time pre-Generals Handbook.

Edited by someone2040

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5 hours ago, someone2040 said:

It's not in Skirmish. It's too large of a model and doesn't suit the setting, so you'll have to wait for GHB2 to find out that.

Oh aye of course! Apologies

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6 hours ago, someone2040 said:

Just for the record, out of the 255 units in Skirmish, only 45 units have points that differ from the trial GHB2 units. I certainly wouldn't consider that most units, but on the other hand, I don't think a lot of them make a whole lot of sense "Just to do for Skirmish". And there are definitely some units that aren't effected by rounding.

A good example are Swordmasters. There is nothing on their warscroll that indicates they are worse in Skirmish. If anything, I would say they're pretty darn good with a nice elite statline, 4+ save, re-rolling saves in the shooting phase and re-roll 1's to hit. Their current points cost of 200 for 5 nicely rounds them out to 4 renown per model. So then, why are they cheaper?

Whether or not we should read 'too' much into this, at least I think it's an interesting discussion point given we're likely about have an Age of Sigmar drought for about 2 months :).

If the discussion is on the basis of 'These are all true', then there can be interesting points such as - If most the Aelven elite units are dropping in points, does it make them more viable? Does it make a mixed Aelven army more viable? What about Mournfang, do they make pure Beastclaw more attractive (Probably hard to consider without the rest of the points). If Ironguts decreased, will we see Irongutstars again? Something we did see for a little bit of time pre-Generals Handbook.

20% changes for models who do not have shown a significant Tournament result is a lot of changes for no obvious reason. As you stated, not changing Skyfires as a result only makes things more 'odd'. 

There certainly is something that indicates that Sword Masters become better if they are within another Eldritch Council unit. Because this synergy is very easy to present in a regular game of AoS as opposed to Skirmish a minor cost alteration is something to be considered. 

It's an interesting discussion for sure, as said I don't mind the ideas or suggestions.

The prime reason as to why certain factions are less viable as others has everything to do with tactical depth. The newest Battletomes offer in many cases a better Battle Trait, tripple the Command Traits, double the Artefacts and new spells/prayers. The new is better because it has more competative choices, it's spectrum ceased to be limited in one dimensional builds which makes a hard counter exceptionally hard to create.

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Nice work @someone2040,

As @bottle said we were hoping someone would go through the entire thing. Whilst it's purely speculative at present it's still kinda fun, right!

Can't wait to see the GH2 now!

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@Chris Tomlin it's kind of fun but also in my opinion a worse reprsentation of what GH does very well, which is putting a clear medium cost on relevant units and design. By example, the Skirmish game presents Mighty Skullcrushers at 9 points, while the Bloodcrusher is presented at 11.

To me the issue with this simple example is the following:
1. The Skullcrusher has an additional wound
2. The Skullcrusher has an additional attack
3. The Skullcrusher has a 4+ 'ward' against Spells
4. The Bloodcrusher has no option to roll a 1 for Battleshock and add additional Bloodcrushers (the only possible reason as to why their costs are the same in GH)

With this in mind there are 2 possible outcomes:
1. Either the cost indication in Skirmish is made up really quick and made up based on models in starters as a tool to introduce new players to AoS
2. The const indication currently excludes expansions for Skirmish that will cover why certain models are costed the way they are

From my perspective the cost/stat design in Skirmish is off, by quite a lot honestly. This issue is only there if you play Skirmish competatively, which in my opinion should not be done anyway because it leads to a very strange mix of using models converted to a system where they arn't designed for.
The overlap between regular AoS and AoS Skirmish is huge and I do not feel that the booklet has weighed in on how to find the correct balance. There is a formula used but it's haphazardly different in A or B while C is even more expensive for no clear obvious reason. An example of C would be your typical Undead warrior. 

Cheers,

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@someone2040 Since you have all of the data, could you graph it? Thinking GHB Point Values per model vs Skirmish Values, with a trendline for where the formula should be. Just be an interesting looking graph.

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