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Nagash in GHB2

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Hi! I really really like the Nagash model, and I love how he plays on the table. I do think he is overcosted though, and really not a super competitive choice (unless you are Tony Moore of course). What do you think? Will he come down in points in Generals Handbook 2? If so, what do you think his new cost will be? I would love if he stayed at 900 but came with a free 200 points of summoning. But I know that won't happen. I think he would be pretty solid at around 750. What do you think?

Cheers,

Job

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He really should be 660-700 to put him in line with the other god characters since the way summoning and the rules of one work he's nerfed hardcore.

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Its a tough one for sure. I would like to see him come down but have no idea if/how and does he actually need to. 

Some sort of model bonus if taking him would be cool though, maybe based around what legion your playing within Death he can summon something beyond your points limit with some restrictions somewhere.

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Give death a generic spell lore (where he gets access to all spells) and maybe lower his points to 800pt then I think he would be great. Maybe also lower the minimum starting size for morghast to 1 model so you could make a summoning heavy Deathlords list. :)

One generic spell should be "return one model to a death unit" or "d6 models to a death battle line unit" or something similar.

I also think Ruler of the night should be dropped, it would also make him relativly stronger against other death hero/general choices.

Edited by Andreas
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Rather than repointing Nagash, it would be great if GHB2 changes the way summoning works to make it work for Matched Play (without ****** it up for Narrative and Open). Repointing Nagash would just be a sticking plaster over the major structural problems the Death Alliance has due to being summoning-focused in a game where summoning is wonked.

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summoning should not be changed, currently the use of summoning is rather tactical and requires you to think about it. i would rather see his points come down and the addition of special detah lore, maybe around 800pts would be appropiate.

summoning for death should be changed to healing, so we can heal our units and bring models back to the units would be fine. any new unit addition to your army should cost points that you have spare.

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I think both summoning and healing should be options that you can focus hero abilities and army lists to. It very raising the dead feel and getting the right balance for new books would be awesome.

I do like that in general summoning doesnt work like it did pre GHB (UK Tournament scene) as that was very powerful. somewhere in the middle with maybe more power for the more powerful heroes would be nice, but what that is i dont want to wish list. Just hope something does get changed/added.

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I do hope that GW amends the rules to make it easier to play Nagash in matched play. It would be a sound business decision, so I am keeping my fingers crossed...

 

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I don't really have anything new to add that everyone hasn't already said but I totally agree that Nagash is pointed too high. I think he is worth 900 points if he had access to 8 different spells and/or there wasn't the rule of 1 to prevent his other casters from using the spells he steals from them, and summoning wasn't so nerfed. It seems like they looked at how powerful he was in freeplay and then pointed him based on that without actually thinking about all the other ways they nerfed magic in the GHB.

I know that when they asked for what people would like to see in the GHB 2 on Facebook some people said Nagash was too expensive and they actually responded asking for the reasons why. That means they did hear that feedback. If they decide to do anything about it is another story.

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The thing about these large models is that they have a fixed points cost based on their impact on the game when they were released. But things change in other parts of their alliance and can make their relative points cost seem lower or higher, and thus people think they are over or under costed. 

 

Example. Archaeon.  People are like "too many points".  Then tzeentch comes out and now he can auto kill anything basically using destiny dice. So now people be like "needs to be more points".  

 

So nagash right now is X points. But lets say ( or hope) that death gets a new battletome next month and a faction ability or something comes out that gives nagash ability to cast same spell multiple times. Or summon without paying points. Now people gonna be crying "too cheap!"  

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basically, yeah.  He's not great now, but he has abilities that are extremely sensitive to the spellcasting and reserve rules.  If we see the introduction of grand alliance level spell lores with good spells for death, if we see a loosening of the rules of three recasting ban, if we see any changes to the reserve point rules, heck even if we see a new death caster with a signature spell that is particularly abusive on nagash.  Any of things could wildly change how effective Nagash is for his points cost.

If nothing changes, a points drop of about 100 could be justified, but there's just too much that can change, and really nowhere for his overall power level to go but up.

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In my opinion he can be 900 points if he gets acces to some serious good spells. 

To me the moral remains, there needs to come a new Battletome for one of the Death factions.

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Yep, a spell lore and access to his full eight spells he would be well worth his 900 points. However, I don't think he should come down in points, I also don't think summoning should be changed, but do agree that more spells to add models back into units would be both thematic and are needed.

 

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The best thing would be a change for most death unit spells from summoning to healing.  Maybe keep summoning spells for ghostly stuff, but switch to replenishment spells for physical undead?  Then let nagash's summoning boosts apply to replenishment spells as well.

but wish listing is neither here nor there, so...   *shrug*

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If I had any say in the matter I'd suggest using a Battle Trait for a Death faction as a source for summoning.
Have mentioned it before but I believe that it could be very benificial for a Death faction to have something like Blood Tithe points but instead have it work for enemy units.

A sketch up of such a Battle Trait would basically include:
- General chooses a Keyword, for every enemy unit you destroy you gain a Battlegrave point. Everytime you attempt to summon a unit you can use a Battlegrave point to generate a Unit twice the regular summoning size. Which would basically lead to you being able to summon 10 Undead but have the result be 20. 
In a way this is indeed adding free points or messing with the cost, however like Blood Tithe points, spending them would imply you spend them and even upon a failed succesion of the summoning the point would be lost.

Other options could be more forgiving but the idea is to have this Battle Trait in addition of good spells, indead Unit healing would be amongst them but most certainly also plentora of Mortal wounds and I'd recon that Battleshock tests (out of Fear) with a minor debuff on Bravery would also fit the Theme of 'Undead horrors' really well. Next to that obviously one spell that would be very benificial to characters would be to have your character become 'Spirit mode' meaning he or she would have the regular Armour save function under all circumstances, ignoring Rend and Mortal Wound effects.

All this would and could lead to Nagash being worth 900 points. The problem is that Death just simply needs more depth in the form of a well written (new written) Battletome that focuses on the skeletal remains. The basic concept that draws you into 'Death'.

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not just a new tome and rules, but new models as well.  there are some painful conceptual gaps in the current line, especially when you shift from viewing death as one faction to viewing it as an alliance of subfactions.

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8 hours ago, Sception said:

not just a new tome and rules, but new models as well.  there are some painful conceptual gaps in the current line, especially when you shift from viewing death as one faction to viewing it as an alliance of subfactions.

Thats certainly true. Though what I think should be there is something as 'simple' as a Death variant of what you see in terms of Stormcast and Blood Warrior infantry. Something armoured, something with a good damage output, a 4+ save and 2 wounds. Ideally those guys would have the same sort of armour we see on Nagash, Moorghasts etc.

Though in general, practically all kinds of units can work when they are provided with the right type of support. What Blood Tithe did for Khorne Heroes is just amazing, I hope to see the same with Spells for the Death faction so it becomes clear why X is costed the way it is.

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I'm a big skeleton fan, so what I really want to see is a skeleton mage, some better rules for grave guard (their offense is fine, but they're too fragile imo, particularly the shieldy ones), better rules for black knights (they're supposed to be mounted wights, but whoever wrote their rules obviously thought they were mounted skittles instead), the return of skittle archers, some kind of monstrous infantry for skittles (either skeleton ogres or a return of ushabti), some kind of monster for skittles (return of bone giant or sphinxes or both), and some kind of monstrous hero (wight king on skeleton dragon or sphinx).

I know that's way too much to hope for, but...

*shrug*

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3 hours ago, Sception said:

I'm a big skeleton fan, so what I really want to see is a skeleton mage, some better rules for grave guard (their offense is fine, but they're too fragile imo, particularly the shieldy ones), better rules for black knights (they're supposed to be mounted wights, but whoever wrote their rules obviously thought they were mounted skittles instead), the return of skittle archers, some kind of monstrous infantry for skittles (either skeleton ogres or a return of ushabti), some kind of monster for skittles (return of bone giant or sphinxes or both), and some kind of monstrous hero (wight king on skeleton dragon or sphinx).

I know that's way too much to hope for, but...

*shrug*

Monster skittles would be great!

But seriously, I would love a bone giant. Not keen on the current model but love the idea.

I am tempted to try this list under GHB 1 

Allegiance: Death

Leaders
Nagash Supreme Lord Of The Undead (900)

Battleline
10 x Zombies (60)
10 x Zombies (60)
10 x Zombies (60)
60 x Zombies (360)
60 x Zombies (360)
20 x Zombies (120)

Units
1 x Corpse Cart (80)

Total: 2000/2000

units of 60 zombies to be summoned in 40's. Daisy chain back to the corpse cart for the bonuses

Might be boring as hell though

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probably would be.  If you're using Nagash, it's best to have a wide variety of summonables and call in what you want or need as the game progresses.

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With the point drop, I'm working on a list like this : 

Allegiance: Death


Wight King with Baleful Tomb Blade(120)
Nagash Supreme Lord Of The Undead(800)
- General


60 x Zombies (320)
60 x Zombies (320)
60 x Zombies (320)
10 x Dire Wolves (120)

Total: 2000/2000
 

The "idea" is to create the ultimate tarpit and a mathematically unkillable army (within 5 turns). No fun here, just efficiency. 

I don't feel like the Corpse Cart is worth 20 Zombies so I removed it for now. 

Same idea with the Necromancer, no room for him.

I'm just beginning playtests, my goal is to refine the saturation point : can I cut a few Zombies, save points for summon or Necro/Cart, is it necessary ?

I'm starting tests against Fyreslayers, SCE and Nurgle, so if it holds, I may have something.

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Skeletons are better than zombies by every metric since you dont have any reserve points.  More damage output and they get a save, plus youll save 40 points per brick which will let you get another hero to pass out the deathless minions buff.

You forgot your artifact btw, nagash cant take one but the wight king can.

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Yeah planned to test with 3 x 40 skellies as well. And Necro since Vanhel's is too good with them. But I'll have to make the maths, not sure it's better in terms of survability (Zombies have a second way of repoping models).

Artefact will be Ring on King most of the time (or Cape) but in my game circle we can choose it at the beginning of each tournament round. 

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