Pile-in Shenanigans? (Dread Saurian)

[Sarkazim]

Posting this for a friend because I couldn't come up with a solid answer.  Told him I would post here.

Seraphon vs. Sylvaneth.  He has just gotten his Dread Saurian in loves the size of it.  Close game, and he pulled this stunt, but it just feels 'Wrong'. (According to him)

Situation. (As best as I can describe)
There is an Objective on the Sylvaneth side of the board.  Just under 6" away is a Branchwych with her toe in to claim the objective.  6" from that is a melee combat that the Dread Saurian is hovering near.  That combat results in the Dread Saurian now being with 3", but not in base contact, of the Sylvaneth unit gets to pile-in.  When he moves, he swings the Saurian all the way around covering the distance between both the unit, and the Branchwych, and also put him in range for claiming the objective.  He finished off the Wych, most of the unit, and ended up claiming the objective.  

He simply wants to know if he did it right.  I didn't have an answer as I've never seen the situation before, but told him I'd post here to get an answer. 

-Thanks

 

[Sarkazim]

I might need to take pictures in a mock setup, but I'll try to describe it as best I can.

- The Dread Saurian was aligned facing toward the Branchwych.  The failed charge left him in the Open.

- The Sylvaneth player, in an attempt to protect the Brachwych, allow it to support a unit, and hold the objective, decided to charge a unit near the Dread Saurian and lock it in combat and away from the Wych.

- He succeeded in charging the nearby Seraphon unit, but failed to make base contact with the Saurian.  The model that got within range of the Saurian was toward the rear of the Saurians one side.  The Sylvaneth player was expecting the Saurian to move directly toward the unit behind him drawing him away from the Objective/ Wycherley, and hoping it didn't kill that unit for the one turn before the game ended.

- The Saurian, still aligned facing the Wych, 'Sidesteps' the full 3", filling the shortest route between the Wych model and the model that dragged the Saurian in.  The final placement left the Saurian within 1" of the unit that pulled it in (which was closer than where it started), within 2" of the Branchwhych, and within 6" of the Objective.

- The Saurian then puts its 1" Attacks on the unit, its 2" Attacks on the Wych (Killing her).  The Sylvaneth idea worked and that unit didn't get destroyed locking the Saurian in its current position, but it was still within 6" of the Objective.

- On the final turn, the Saurian didnt Retreat from the combat to secure the Objective (Players aren't used to Retreating here). As his first Activation, he chose his other unit, which finished off the Sylvaneth, so that the Saurian wouldn't have to Pile In, off of the Objective.

** I know it sounds simple, but I don't agree with the 'Ending Closer than before'.  I'm aware it's allowed, but I strongly feel that if you're not trying to get into base contact, you're abusing the interpretation.  (Carryover from 40k).  The upside to AoS is that I'm allowed to play this way, no one can prevent me, and as long as I don't force my opponent to, then it's all good. It's because of my preferred playstyle, that I don't ever deal with situations like this, that's why I asked.

As for the base, we found out that the feet of the Saurian will fit onto a Mawcrusha Base.  So he's going to go with that.  Since it's a round base, it'll allow him to rotate the Saurian for more cinematic play of actually facing what he's snacking on without gaining any advantage.

 

[BaldoBeardo]

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting cheating or bad form - I just genuinely couldn't visualise the movement!
Nuances of movement rules are absolutely one of the most important things to learn to use in AoS.

Ps. Going to be extremely fun watching 40k players have to re-learn movement too...

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[Sarkazim]

We watched that Video and it didn't really help when dealing with the size of the Saurian AND without a Base.

So the Shenanigan part was limited to not defining how to interact with the Dread Saurian clearly for both players.  We at least know the rule was played correctly, so it becomes a sportsmanship issue by not informing his opponent.  ie When one player assumes one thing, and the other expects something different.  A simple test for me is to note the reaction of the opposing player when something like this happens.  The Sylvaneth player was upset because of the model, not because of the rules.  BOTH players admitted that they didn't have a clear resolution, diced-off, and played it out. 

You guys have all been a great help.  He'll be on a base soon enough and we can go back to attempting to kill each other like civilized gamers.

[Grimma]

...

[Jharen]

I don't see any such movements as "Shenanigans" or rules abuse.  This is an import tactical aspect to the games combat and maneuvering mechanics.  Know how to use these things to your advantage and in turn how to combat against these types of things is extremely useful for winning games.

Even from a narrative standpoint this can make perfect sense given the proper suspension of disbelief.  The unit tried to pull the attention of the large Saurian away from their Wych but failed to do so, and in turn the Saurian continued to focus his advance on the Wych albeit with the additional bogging down from the advancing hordes.

[Grimma]

...

[Mayple]

14 minutes ago, Ratamaplata said:

They did nothing wrong. The rule is pretty simple and works the same for everyone. It adds a lot of tactical intricacy to combat.

I'm with you on this. The video @Arkiham posted further clarifies that it works like that, so sportsmanship ain't no issue @Sarkazim

[Ratamaplata]

2 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

I feel I've gotten my answer, and at this point it's more of a Sportsmanship issue than a rules question.

They did nothing wrong. The rule is pretty simple and works the same for everyone. It adds a lot of tactical intricacy to combat.

[fartsocks]

9 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

** I know it sounds simple, but I don't agree with the 'Ending Closer than before'.  I'm aware it's allowed, but I strongly feel that if you're not trying to get into base contact, you're abusing the interpretation.  

 

 

If you had a conga line of models with just one close enough to the enemy model/unit to attack, the way pile in works lets you move that model around the back to allow models from behind him to follow up and get into combat. If you had to just take a direct route into base contact, the guys behind would all have to wait and attack one by one, like in an old martial arts film.

[Arkiham]

On 2017-5-7 at 1:25 AM, Mayple said:

Wait, so a guy standing 1'' away from the closest enemy model could move -around- the model and end up behind it as long as he ends closer than 1''? Provided sufficient space to maneuver, of course.

That seems immensively useful!

 

[Sarkazim]

7 hours ago, Jharen said:

In order to complete a charge one model from your unit must end its charge move within a 1/2 inch of an enemy model.

He attempted to charge the Saurian, but only got enough distance to charge the Seraphon unit that was near the Saurian.  Either on the Charge or on the Pile-in, the Sylvaneth player managed to get one model within 3" of Saurian dragging it in.  

That model wasn't directly behind the Saurian, it was on the side, but more toward the rear of the model, so a Direct route would've have taken it further away from the Wych.  The Shenanigan part comes from the intent of using his pile-in on such a large model to get within 2" of the Wych, to throw it's attacks against it.  He feels kind of bad since he was able to kill the Wych, prevent them from scoring, and claim the objective, and win the game because of what the Sylvaneth player did.  

I feel I've gotten my answer, and at this point it's more of a Sportsmanship issue than a rules question.

[Ratamaplata]

2 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

- On the final turn, the Saurian didnt Retreat from the combat to secure the Objective (Players aren't used to Retreating here). As his first Activation, he chose his other unit, which finished off the Sylvaneth, so that the Saurian wouldn't have to Pile In, off of the objective.

 

You don't have to pile in. It's an optional move.

 

As for moving directly towards the nearest model, that would allow much less tactical manoeuvres. The pile in mechanic is one of the best things in the game.

[Jharen]

33 minutes ago, Sarkazim said:

- The Saurian, still aligned facing the Wych, 'Sidesteps' the full 3", filling the shortest route between the Wych model and the unit that dragged the Saurian in.  The final placement left the Saurian within 1" of the unit that pulled it in (which was closer than where it started), within 2" of the Branchwhych, and within 6" of the Objective.

This here doesn't make much sense as I'm reading it.  Here's a few key things that pop in my head when reading this:

In order to complete a charge one model from your unit must end its charge move within a 1/2 inch of an enemy model.

When piling in you must pile in towards the nearest enemy MODEL.  Not UNIT.

If the Saurian was charged near the rear of its model and the Saurian was facing the Wych, I do not see how he would be able to pile in his full 3 inches and end up closer to the nearest enemy model that is already within 1/2 an inch of him in the opposite direction unless the unit that charged the Saurian had both a large base itself or failed to close the tiny gap between itself and the Saurian.

[BaldoBeardo]

I cannot see a way that this can work given the stated parameters?
It sounds like a model 1" away piled in and managed to get around the other side of the model. On a small base, no biggy. On a base the size of the dread saurian, even using m2m, I cannot see a way that is possible without some part of the moving more than 3", especially regarding the stated distances?

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[Thostos]

2 hours ago, Mayple said:

Wait, so a guy standing 1'' away from the closest enemy model could move -around- the model and end up behind it as long as he ends closer than 1''? Provided sufficient space to maneuver, of course.

That seems immensively useful!

 It is indeed!

 

  In this scenario,I gather he was not using a base and thus playing M2M,,which is fine by me but not generally accepted in most events.As for getting a base,,not sure what size he/they are intending to get but for mine,I ended up making one out of 1/8 hobby ply as there isint a base made that comfortably fits the model.I went with (roughly_ a 220mm x 135 mm size oval and it seems to fit all proportions.Perhaps a bit on the small size but I didnt want to make it so big as to mostly cover an objectives cap zone,,and with the size of the Dread,thats not hard to do.

 

[tolstedt]

1 hour ago, Mayple said:

Wait, so a guy standing 1'' away from the closest enemy model could move -around- the model and end up behind it as long as he ends closer than 1''? Provided sufficient space to maneuver, of course.

That seems immensively useful!

Yes.

[Mayple]

4 hours ago, Jharen said:

It doesn't even need to end in base contact, just closer than it previously was.

Wait, so a guy standing 1'' away from the closest enemy model could move -around- the model and end up behind it as long as he ends closer than 1''? Provided sufficient space to maneuver, of course.

That seems immensively useful!

[Jharen]

It doesn't even need to end in base contact, just closer than it previously was.

[Sarkazim]

Just to recap:
As long as he doesn't move any part of the model more than the 3", and ends up in base contact with the closest model, it's legal?

 

[Naflem]

yeah that sounds fine then. 

[Sarkazim]

- No part of the model moved more than 3", it's just that huge. ie, He didn't rotate the model in anyway to gain the extra distance.  The 'Swing Around' is moving past the closest model to get a different angle.
- He had sufficient move with his 3" move STRAIGHT toward the nearest model (which was about an 1" away), and would've left the Wych out of combat.
- As he wasn't in base contact with any opposing model, he moved the full 3" to get onto the side of the closest model.  Without rotating, he was able to get within striking distance of the Wych AND 6" of the objective.  He killed the Wych, and since he was within 6" of the objective and the Sylvaneth wasn't, he was able to score the point and win the game.

** He is aware that the size of the model is huge, and has already ordered a base for it to avoid this sort of confusion in the future.  He's ordered a base for it, but even with the base, a similar situation could happen again.

[Jharen]

If you pivot a model you must measure that movement against it's maximum allowed movement, as no part of a model may move further than the movement distance allows.  Seeing as you stated he "swings" the model around I am going to assume he pivoted the model at some point during the move and he should have accounted for the distance that it traveled during such a maneuver.  This is not an issue when using a round base model (and measuring from bases) but does matter when using oval bases.

Further, all pile-in moves must end closer to the nearest enemy model.  The path you travel to meet that goal is not important so long as you follow the rules for movement and do not exceed your pile in distance (usually 3 inches) during the move and do not break unit cohesion (if it applies).

[BaldoBeardo]

This is one of the other issues between model-to-model and base-to-base measuring - model to model requires accounting for rotational movement.
By the sound of it though, as you described it "swings [..] all the way around", it sounds like he wasn't allowed.

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[rokapoke]

No part of the Saurian can move more than 3", and it must end its pile-in closer to the nearest enemy model. If both of those criteria are met the maneuver is legit.