Let's chat : Maggotkin of Nurgle

[smucreo]

41 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

Bell for Sure.

Anyway i want to bring you a topic:

Do you All think that the most competitive choice will be daemons, mortals or mixed?

Because to be fair the daemons for me are far weaker right now than the other options.

Also no one talked about bile trolls with m8 that i think is pretty damn strong

 

Honestly daemons seem pretty darn strong for me. Look at the lists proposed by me or Killax earlier in this thread, lots of synergies, a way of dishing out easy mortal wounds each round, buffed hordes of bearers that are hard as hell to kill compared to other battlelines, great artifacts, a way to dish out lots of attacks using drones + locus + guo ability ... it feels really strong. 

Slightly related by the way: In my opinion everyone is hyping blades of putrefaction + anything combo, but what happens when you face any army that has a -1 to hit debuff for your dudes? Good luck getting the 6s then. The worst offenders are the lists than bring Blight Kings + Blades. It's banking too much on a single number, and a single debuff will render the strat useless. That's why on an earlier post I said I don't feel the spell is worth bringing the Rotbringer sorcerer to the table. I'd much rather pay 40 extra and get that sweet ability and unique spell that the Chaos Sorcerer has. Plus the Mortal Lore is really nice too and a Hero is a Hero still, so the Locus can still be active anyways.

[Killax]

I see that aspect differently. If that -1 hit is a 6 wound guy he'll be subject to all the D3 mortal wounds your army can cough up. It means he shouldnt last long.

But in reality the prime reason remains for me that he can focus on Cycle manipulation otherwise. A task every Nurgle Wizard can preform but not all want to due to melee support reasons (GUO/Herald).

[smucreo]

Both wizards can cast the cycle spell right? If that's the case then honestly can't see why you would go for the Rotbringer Sorcerer over the Chaos one. The abilities are SO much better imo. It would only be justified if you wanted to grab something from the Rotbringer Lore/ if the Mortal lore was really bad. 

[Peegee]

Even if Blades of Putrefaction is random, the turn you succesfuly cast it on a solid unit (BK, Drones) can be devastating. We're talking 10+ Mortal Wounds average on a 6 Drones buffed unit.

I feel it's more a game changer than reroll 1's of the Chaos Sorcerer. That's why I'll opt for the Rotbringer.

[shadowgra]

Chaos sorcerer lord can't cast blade of putrefaction.

Maybe i expressed myself badly earlier.

I do not think that daemons are weak. I mean guo is strong, rotigus is strong, drones got buffed, toads are impossible to kill.

However what i do not like is the massive point increase on plaguebearers. I mean 40 marauders cost 200, can be in plaguetouched, with harbinger have almost the same statline.

I think that compared to other daemon troops they are overcosted for what they do. Cause they are not going to kill anything and they tank exactly as before (also kind of less cause tallyband is weaker and won't be purchased often). Ye they are faster but is that worth the +50 points per 30? As 10 they are almost unplayable right now, just go 10 marauders instead, they cost half!

I think that the only units that really got way better are: BK, guo, Herald/sorcerer(that is at least worth considering right now) and toads, that for the same cost now have access to a ton more buffs. Other imho stayed on the same powerlevel, if not slightly decreased in power.

My 2 cents btw is ok if you don't agree with me

[Killax]

I think every Blight Tree would likely be costed around 50 points, it is in 40k. Which is why I think the cost increase makes sence.

Where I agree with is that you thake 30 bearers or none. There is no real point to go for 10, let alone 20. Same applies to Bloodletters and Horrors these days.

There is a massive difference in Bearerd and Marauders though. Cant even say they are remotely close. Even less so when you thake a GUO.

[shadowgra]

Well the only thing marauders miss is the ability to come back and the -2 to be hit in shooting.

They have the same statline in melee, marauders, same save, with harbinger they get DR. I do think they have a comparison. 

Btw guo's bell influences anyone, even marauders. Also marauders are faster and add +1 to run and charge.

The -2 to be hit by shooting is meaningless anyway imho, is someone is wasting shooting on marauders he is doing something wrong

They are not comparable in every list but in a mortal one for Sure.

 

Otherwise for 160 point more i can take 30 warriors, that hit exactly twice harder, has a +1 save, have 2x the wounds and have a double 5+ against mortal wounds.

 

[smucreo]

30 plaguebearers: 320 points

30 marauders: 200 points + Plaguetouched: 100 points = 300 points

Not much of a difference imo. And with this plaguebearers still have an extra save and better debuffs for enemies attacking them.

If we consider the Harbinger point sink (140 points) and the fact that the bearers can be run alone while to have the Marauders tank as much as them you have to use all this I think marauders lose the efficiency fight.

My two cents.

EDIT: yeah, on a mortal list daemons would be worse. But it would be a mortal list after all. Bearers can be really scary with the scrivener + guo buffs too.

[shadowgra]

You forget that plaguetouched affects 8 units and not just marauders.

Also the harbinger is mandatory anyway and even a single marauder in range trigger the 5++ Buff.

Plaguebearers are better stand alone, this is true.

However for me the scrivener is a waste of point, plaguebearers are not just meant to do damage, take drones for this role. The reroll charge of 1 is way more interesting that the r1s to hit.

Also for me the guo buffs should be used on a unit of drones. 400 points for 30 wounds with tons of attacks is a good thing to buff. 

 

[smucreo]

4 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

Also for me the guo buffs should be used on a unit of drones. 400 points for 30 wounds with tons of attacks is a good thing to buff. 

On that we can agree!

What would be your suggested list then?

[shadowgra]

Don't know. Thinking about something (for daemons ) like that:

Guo (bell, blade) 340

Prince  160

30 plaguebearers 320

10 marauders 60

10 marauders 60

12 toads 320

12 toads 320

6 drones 400

Tot 1980

A bit weak on duality of death but caster guo will stay behind an unkillable wall of toads. 

This list have not a huge spell/hero detachment but can win through pure attration.

After all is 192 effective wounds of toads to take down.

[Peegee]

Have you noticed the update on FW Warscrolls ??? Seems that you can summon other units than the one in the BT with Contagion Points !!

Look at Toads and Pox Riders :

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/aos_warscrolls/warhammer-aos-tamurkhans-horde.pdf

[smucreo]

So I tweaked my last list a bit: How does this look?

GUO w bell (340)

Scrivener (100)

Chaos Sorcerer (160) (With Rotbringer Sorcerer I had some points left, this lets me hit 2000 on the nose)

30 x Plaguebearers (320)

30 x Plaguebearers (320)

5 x Blight Kings (160)

9 x Drones (or 6 and 3, don't know) (600)

Honestly I'm not sure about including the Blight Kings here, I had to fill battleline and there are only two options I could possibly grab. 10 bearers are not that good I feel and the Blight Kings help me maximize point efficiency (2000 instead of having 40 points left) so I went for them.

[shadowgra]

Nice list, i like it.

Would do 6-3 rather than a unit of 9

[Killax]

2 hours ago, shadowgra said:

Well the only thing marauders miss is the ability to come back and the -2 to be hit in shooting.

They have the same statline in melee, marauders, same save, with harbinger they get DR. I do think they have a comparison. 

Btw guo's bell influences anyone, even marauders. Also marauders are faster and add +1 to run and charge.

The -2 to be hit by shooting is meaningless anyway imho, is someone is wasting shooting on marauders he is doing something wrong

They are not comparable in every list but in a mortal one for Sure.

 

Otherwise for 160 point more i can take 30 warriors, that hit exactly twice harder, has a +1 save, have 2x the wounds and have a double 5+ against mortal wounds.

 

Not really. There is a Morale difference which matters, there is a -1 to hit in combat and most importantly there is the attack bonus you can obtain through the Great Unclean One's Command Ability and there is the Daemon Locus bonus. It adds up to a lot. The biggest thing that matters is the Morale, 5++ and Shooting protection. Moral wounds and shooting heavy armies care absolutely nothing for Marauders. Plaguebearers on the other hand can hanle immense ammounts of punishment.

If you believe the -2 shooting is meaningless I believe your not playing in a competitive area. Not that you need to, just saying.

2 hours ago, smucreo said:

30 plaguebearers: 320 points

30 marauders: 200 points + Plaguetouched: 100 points = 300 points

Not much of a difference imo. And with this plaguebearers still have an extra save and better debuffs for enemies attacking them.

If we consider the Harbinger point sink (140 points) and the fact that the bearers can be run alone while to have the Marauders tank as much as them you have to use all this I think marauders lose the efficiency fight.

My two cents.

EDIT: yeah, on a mortal list daemons would be worse. But it would be a mortal list after all. Bearers can be really scary with the scrivener + guo buffs too.

Yeah my point really is that a GUO is a great general and with that Plaguebearers become immensely good. More importantly though Bearers become buffed when other great choices are simply near.

I like Marauders for holding objectives and that's about it. Otherwise I am never impressed by Marauders while I certainly have seen Plaguebearers stick around in scary situations. Now when they have the acces to more attacks and mortal wounds with a great general as a GUO I see no real reason to skip on them IF you pick a GUO. As before it isn't really different in other Chaos allegiances either  

58 minutes ago, smucreo said:

So I tweaked my last list a bit: How does this look?

GUO w bell (340)

Scrivener (100)

Chaos Sorcerer (160) (With Rotbringer Sorcerer I had some points left, this lets me hit 2000 on the nose)

30 x Plaguebearers (320)

30 x Plaguebearers (320)

5 x Blight Kings (160)

9 x Drones (or 6 and 3, don't know) (600)

Honestly I'm not sure about including the Blight Kings here, I had to fill battleline and there are only two options I could possibly grab. 10 bearers are not that good I feel and the Blight Kings help me maximize point efficiency (2000 instead of having 40 points left) so I went for them.

Yeah I like it. I would certainly split to 6 and 3, makes for a great hard hitting unit and a hero hunter/flanker etc. I feel that the small unit is also fantastic to use for Objectives. 

I think the Blight Kings remain a good choice. Not ****** required but they make for a very solid horde counter, especially worth it if they have mass numbers and low armour. Offcourse Plaguebearers can smack those too but Blightkings are more suited for the job and the mix of different footprints allows for great flexability.

Having said that this is also where the personal preforances factor in. It's certainly possible to upgrade the Chaos Sorcerer with Blightkings to something else too. In general though I believe this type of list set up is very strong. As before it's easy to forget about the Blight Trees but you want to add at least 4-5 to the collection for every game.

[sal4m4nd3r]

Mauraders are sick AF in a mortal list with the harbinger, glotkin and plaguetouched warband. Getting +1 wound, -1 to hit and a 5++ is so absolutely tanky. More so then almost anything in the game. Even if you took 1 or 2 of those buffs/debuffs..they are still dope in the right list.. i.e one with few-no demons.  I take them as block of 35 for 200 points

[DynamicCalories]

Quick Q: I have 5 blight kings from my pre-maggot kin shambolic nurgle force, If Inwere to get another 5 would it be best to build them as a separate unit of 5 or to make the original 5 very chunky?

[wayniac]

Remind me again, what book is Plaguetouched in?  Everchosen, right?  I'm really considering Blight Cyst because I really don't want to have to bring in Marauders (dislike the models, and don't want to convert them to look more Nurgle-like).  core would be a Lord of Blights, 2x10 Blightkings, 1x30 Plaguebearers and go from there (probably need one more unit of Blightkings for the Blight Cyst battalion, so would end up 3x10)

[shadowgra]

10 minutes ago, Killax said:

If you believe the -2 shooting is meaningless I believe your not playing in a competitive area. Not that you need to, just saying.

I sincerely don't care because if they shoot on a unit that costs 200 points and is meant to take damage. 

If it was a -2 to hit on a guo or a mage i will actually consider them differently.

 

For example if a shooting of 10 judis goes into marauders i don't actually care even if i lose 10 (really high number here). Because they will still be around with 30 wounds, soaking damage.

The damage they deal is actually negligible, as is the PBS one.

@sal4m4nd3r completely agree with you. A unit of 35 in a plaguetouched list is really strong

@wayniaceverchosen book. Blight cyst is really good.

[Killax]

7 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Mauraders are sick AF in a mortal list with the harbinger, glotkin and plaguetouched warband. Getting +1 wound, -1 to hit and a 5++ is so absolutely tanky. More so then almost anything in the game. Even if you took 1 or 2 of those buffs/debuffs..they are still dope in the right list.. i.e one with few-no demons.  I take them as block of 35 for 200 points

Certainly, skipping on the GUO can still make a great army. It's one of the coolest way to go Rotbringer heavy I believe. Especially if you like converting all those Marauders.

The great thing about Bearers is that they come with that -2/-1/5++ in a block of 30, no questions asked  

2 minutes ago, DynamicCalories said:

Quick Q: I have 5 blight kings from my pre-maggot kin shambolic nurgle force, If Inwere to get another 5 would it be best to build them as a separate unit of 5 or to make the original 5 very chunky?

Depends on the rest of your collection! I'd say go for 1 10 and then do what you want. Same with the Bearer Drones too. I think you will want one large unit and then maby more smaller ones. But if your going Plaguebearers heavy and have those you might want to keep small 5 sized units  

[Killax]

1 minute ago, shadowgra said:

I sincerely don't care because if they shoot on a unit that costs 200 points and is meant to take damage. 

If it was a -2 to hit on a guo or a mage i will actually consider them differently.

 

For example if a shooting of 10 judis goes into marauders i don't actually care even if i lose 10 (really high number here). Because they will still be around with 30 wounds, soaking damage.

The damage they deal is actually negligible, as is the PBS one.

I think that if you don't care you clearly havn't faced the more and more often talked about Skink or Vulkite heavy lists yet. Their range isn't massive, they are mainstay units, they are certainly amongst the best units in the game and they are most certainly hindered by -2 hits in the shooting phase. If your opponent wants to shoot your GUO that's all okay too. With Arcane shield, his self healing and potential cycle healing there are very few who actually can remove it from long range. The units who can are the units who you want to use your Plaguebearers for.

If your opponent decided to use his Judis into Marauders he's making huge play mistakes. Marauders don't dent butter if their lives depended on it. What you seem to completely miss is the Command Ability from the GUO for the Plaguebearers. Add Rotbringer spell no. 1 and see how much dissolves instantly. 

[smucreo]

About a week ago I played with a friend who was using a list with lots of skinks, and I can't tell you how useful Bat Swarms were there (I was playing Soulblight). They offer -1 to hit in a bubble and still that was enough to be annoying. Imagine having -2 to hit from ranged and -1 from combat, rerolling 6s to hit thanks to the wheel, having 5++ and rerolling 1s to save. It's huge. And with bearers you have to focus them, unless you want a huge tarpit of dudes to smash against your lines and slowly but surely grind you down.

[Trayanee]

Will the new Nurgle battletome somehow benefit the Tamurkhan Horde army? I have been considering building it for some time and maybe this is a good opportunity to do so.

[shadowgra]

23 minutes ago, Killax said:

I think that if you don't care you clearly havn't faced the more and more often talked about Skink or Vulkite heavy lists yet. Their range isn't massive, they are mainstay units, they are certainly amongst the best units in the game and they are most certainly hindered by -2 hits in the shooting phase. If your opponent wants to shoot your GUO that's all okay too. With Arcane shield, his self healing and potential cycle healing there are very few who actually can remove it from long range. The units who can are the units who you want to use your Plaguebearers for.

If your opponent decided to use his Judis into Marauders he's making huge play mistakes. Marauders don't dent butter if their lives depended on it. What you seem to completely miss is the Command Ability from the GUO for the Plaguebearers. Add Rotbringer spell no. 1 and see how much dissolves instantly. 

In my opinion you are overrating the offensive capabilities of plaguebearers.

With a +1 attack they are doing an average of 10 wounds to a 4+ save. And this is 5 dead blood warriors for 320 points assuming you have all in range to attack (now they are on 32rounds). 

Btw shooting of vulkites or skinks is still a peppering fire that would do some casualty but again, i don't really care about losing some marauders and this is the point you are missing. If he is shooting there is not shooting elsewhere and i am happy with that.

The comment on judis is pretty annoying, is not what i meant to say. I am saying that if someone wastes any kind of shot on a 6 model each unit he is making mistakes, not me taking them.

And btw for 120 points less they have also 10 more wounds so they are even more tanky than PBS in the right list.

 

Anyway i think that none of us will understand the other way of thinking so let's end it there

[GeneralZero]

what's about the glotkin? point value....and point of view? I'm kinda in love with the miniature 

same question about blightkings on drones and the  Bloab Rotspawned (and its 2 variations kit) I can't even find their warscroll