Let's chat : Maggotkin of Nurgle

[Arkiham]

22 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

All the units have be dropped within a bubble of gutrot which may limit how many models in that unit 

from what i heard, they have to  be

deploy within 6" of gutrot and wholly within 6" from an edge of a battlefield. so you can just drop 20 kings 6" away from the battlefield edge, which is loads of room

[NurglesFirstChosen]

7 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

from what i heard, they have to  be

deploy within 6" of gutrot and wholly within 6" from an edge of a battlefield. so you can just drop 20 kings 6" away from the battlefield edge, which is loads of room

Fair enough, I wasn’t sure how much space they’d fill. But I guess 6’’ bubble is quite large 

[Arkiham]

1 minute ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

Fair enough, I wasn’t sure how much space they’d fill. But I guess 6’’ bubble is quite large 

its not a bubble, its 6" from the board edge. and 6" near him. according to the facehammer podcast. so he could be at 1 end of the huge unit

[NurglesFirstChosen]

2 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

its not a bubble, its 6" from the board edge. and 6" near him. according to the facehammer podcast. so he could be at 1 end of the huge unit

I thought they said all models would need be placed within that range of sprume. 

Ill have a second listen later. 

[FRoper]

i will probably be taking the blight lord and friends battalion. do we think blightkings will be good in units of 5?

[NurglesFirstChosen]

Lord of affliction with rustfang, backed up by blight Lords has be good surely! 

Not sure bout kings but that battalion giving them rend combined with save debuff spells must be great. 

[shadowgra]

21 minutes ago, FRoper said:

i will probably be taking the blight lord and friends battalion. do we think blightkings will be good in units of 5?

They will. Also consider tho 1-2 units with more bodies (5 go down really quick)

11 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

Lord of affliction with rustfang, backed up by blight Lords has be good surely! 

Not sure bout kings but that battalion giving them rend combined with save debuff spells must be great. 

The more i think of it, the more i think it is really good. I mean with rustfang he has 7 attacks with at least -1 (rustfang lowers save) to -3 rend. Also packs a good mortal wounds injection, area rerolls for All rotbringers (blightkings!), he heals, has 8 wounds with DR and can be buffed by daemons and mortals.

The only thing that bothers me is that he has no 3+ like most mounted 200-ish points lord. But with DR he makes up for it

[NurglesFirstChosen]

Not to mention his rotbringer buff rerolling hits of 1 in a 7’’ bubble.  It’s also cool that the rustfangs debuff lasts all game.  

Possibilities to flee out of combat with affliction lord with the aim of debuffing saves on multiple enemy units. 

Which if used with deepstrike of spume and a unit of bks might be quite nasty! 

[Killax]

As before I see the Rotbringer aspects as elites that will often act as support. As a result I think the 140 point cost for the Lord is absolutely correct and the 110 (2 minimum) cost for the Blightkings on Drones is good too. They could have been 100 points but the synergies available to them are massive in the Battletome. Not only do they have save after save they also heal each other and can obtain 16" move without much effort. I'd say it would be wrong to make them much cheaper.

What's also another reason I think most Nurgle units are a tad expensive is the whole set of Allegiance abilities that are gained with them. For sure this means you are less likely to run them outside of the Allegiance but personally I think players of Nurgle units that arn't Clan Pestilens will love it altogether. In 40K the Blight Tree is also 50 points, in AoS I very much feel like it should/could cost the same. So considering an average game will at least add 3 for free I can see why that 'cost' seems to have spread amongst units. It's restrictive in some ways but also very cool if you ask me.

To top it all off, they do have all Keywords you want which opens to door to a ton of synergy. I would value these units with that synergy in mind. There is very little that can go wrong with them considering their very impressive durability. In that same vein I see all Blightking units run in small numbers as elite support. There are a lot of Hero assassination routes within Nurgle and this lore befits the Blightkings on Drones very well.

[Tasman]

16 minutes ago, Killax said:

As before I see the Rotbringer aspects as elites that will often act as support. As a result I think the 140 point cost for the Lord is absolutely correct and the 110 (2 minimum) cost for the Blightkings on Drones is good too. They could have been 100 points but the synergies available to them are massive in the Battletome. Not only do they have save after save they also heal each other and can obtain 16" move without much effort. I'd say it would be wrong to make them much cheaper.

What's also another reason I think most Nurgle units are a tad expensive is the whole set of Allegiance abilities that are gained with them. For sure this means you are less likely to run them outside of the Allegiance but personally I think players of Nurgle units that arn't Clan Pestilens will love it altogether. In 40K the Blight Tree is also 50 points, in AoS I very much feel like it should/could cost the same. So considering an average game will at least add 3 for free I can see why that 'cost' seems to have spread amongst units. It's restrictive in some ways but also very cool if you ask me.

To top it all off, they do have all Keywords you want which opens to door to a ton of synergy. I would value these units with that synergy in mind. There is very little that can go wrong with them considering their very impressive durability. In that same vein I see all Blightking units run in small numbers as elite support. There are a lot of Hero assassination routes within Nurgle and this lore befits the Blightkings on Drones very well.

So the idea is, evidently, run mobs of demon/mortals and support with rotbringers? Where does the GUO fit in with this? Most games in my store are match play and 2k is the norm. I'm most certainly looking to field a big papa. Looks as if I'll be supporting with just a unit of 5 BKs as 2 units of PBs will be what, 600 pts? After I add some heralds and drones there's not much room left for rot bringer support. I do like the vast number of builds that seem to be possible here, (hard to really know as I won't have the book until next week) so it looks as though I'll probably have two or three 'generic' builds that are good all comers lists. I'm looking forward to dusting off the uglies and getting busy with furthering Nurgles dream.....

[shadowgra]

27 minutes ago, Tasman said:

So the idea is, evidently, run mobs of demon/mortals and support with rotbringers? Where does the GUO fit in with this? Most games in my store are match play and 2k is the norm. I'm most certainly looking to field a big papa. Looks as if I'll be supporting with just a unit of 5 BKs as 2 units of PBs will be what, 600 pts? After I add some heralds and drones there's not much room left for rot bringer support. I do like the vast number of builds that seem to be possible here, (hard to really know as I won't have the book until next week) so it looks as though I'll probably have two or three 'generic' builds that are good all comers lists. I'm looking forward to dusting off the uglies and getting busy with furthering Nurgles dream.....

I think a pretty good list based on guo could be:

Guo (bell and blade)

Lord of affliction

Rotbringer sorcerer

Herald/ some other unit

30 PBS 

30 PBS

4 blightlords 

5 blightkings 

 

You have good body amount, 4 spells per turn, good healing, good chances in duality thanks to loa.

And your blightlords will deal 4A with -2 rend 2 damage and 8 with -1 rend d3 damage, rerolling All ones to hit and with exploding hits on 6s. They quite pack the punch in this case.

 

[Killax]

40 minutes ago, Tasman said:

So the idea is, evidently, run mobs of demon/mortals and support with rotbringers? Where does the GUO fit in with this? Most games in my store are match play and 2k is the norm. I'm most certainly looking to field a big papa. Looks as if I'll be supporting with just a unit of 5 BKs as 2 units of PBs will be what, 600 pts? After I add some heralds and drones there's not much room left for rot bringer support. I do like the vast number of builds that seem to be possible here, (hard to really know as I won't have the book until next week) so it looks as though I'll probably have two or three 'generic' builds that are good all comers lists. I'm looking forward to dusting off the uglies and getting busy with furthering Nurgles dream.....

That is my thake on it. You can go heavier Rotbringers as Daemons offcourse, the advantage here is that you obtain more attacks in a smaller area and as a result have more place to put the Blight Tree support into effect. But overall the mix to me is the strongest choice here. Wether or not you thake a Battalion, which seems very optional here too.

The Great Unclean One fits into this as the General. Support is gained through him, he arguably has the best Command Trait for chopping down hordes and with the Bell he makes pretty much the whole army as fast as typical cavalry. I do think your thake on it is somewhat correct. To give an impression, the 30 Bearers are 320 points, the Rotbringers 160 per 5, so also 320 for 10. You will have a relative elite army but make no mistake, you also want to have at lest 3 of those Blight Trees. 

The moment you skip on Battalions you open more breathing room for support. I don't know the full cost listing of Nurgle's Battalions but if they are all 140 points or more I deem it very likely you'd rather have more units instead. One additional Herald and one Sorcerer of Nurgle do more as most Battalions do here. Mortal wounds matter a lot so a single Rotbringer Sorcerer is a guaranteed thake in my opinion, same with the GUO, despite him thaking up a lot of points. But those two Heroes alone pretty much do the same as a Bloodthirster and Bloodsecrator do for Khorne. Add in Sloppity as the functional Bloodstoker equivelant and yeah you should be good. 

As a must buy/must get list, this would be my choice if I would go for it:
- Maggotkin of Nurgle Battletome
- Maggotkin of Nurgle cards (optional, but it's cool to have, you'll love it later when all is updated and you can reflect upon the good old days  )
- Great Unclean One kit, likely getting the first for the Bell and Flail General, but magnetize and you will be happier. If you pick a second one it will be for Rotigus.
- (2x +)30 'Bearer bombs', at least two if your aim is to go competitive.
- Rotbringer Sorcerer.
- (3x +) Ferulent Gnarlmaw's, I know it's kind of expensive and scenery but they are really why some units seem so expensive. 
- Really season to taste with the models you like. This can be any of the Rotbringers but I deem them like Wrathmongers now, obviously slightly less insane in potential but great for flanking purposes. If you want to go for a Blight Knight flyer bomb that option seems good to me aswell but stamping forward with a massive horde all at once (Murderhost style) is something I can confirm as working extremely well  

There are still two things new players should consider here which they might deem as unfun but I know a true Nurgle fan doesn't mind. Those are:
1. This army has A LOT of book keeping, easy to forget triggers and effects, I'll try to help you folks out with the cards but even that can only cover so much  
2. This army seems to be costed and designed completely with the Nurgle Allegiance in mind. Without the Nurgle Allegiance I just can't see myself paying 320 points for 30 Plaguebearers, they need the synergy. The synergy is exclusive to this Allegiance.

[FRoper]

I agree with Killax, we need the synergy. I ask, what is better 30 plague bearers or 10 blightkings. the blights kings will have more wounds and they cost around the same, although the plague bearers have a larger footprint, but don't benefit from the harbringer, which is my all time favorite model, so I will keep using him.

[Killax]

5 minutes ago, FRoper said:

I agree with Killax, we need the synergy. I ask, what is better 30 plague bearers or 10 blightkings. the blights kings will have more wounds and they cost around the same, although the plague bearers have a larger footprint, but don't benefit from the harbringer, which is my all time favorite model, so I will keep using him.

I think they are about as good really. So it boils down to which you like/want. Same applies in Blades of Khorne too. While the Blood Warriors will have less Mortal wound output as the Bloodletters they are, like Blightkings, more survivable which can be wished for also because else your relying much more on alpha strikes.

I think there is enough space for including a lot, but again then you are running an army without Battalions. Quite frankly though I don't really see this as a massive issue. Especially not if your planning to include ranged support options like a Plagueclaw aswell. Or perhaps simply adding Rotigus next to your regular GUO for ranged support. All the options are there but there is a heavy cost attached to them, which will narrow the path your walking on.

The prime advantage of skipping on Battalions here is that you do have a lot of freedom to mix units in and out. At this moment, at this day and age, I think every Maggotkin player might want to consider playing without Battalions for a month to get a feeling for what they really like. There are pro's and con's to large footprints and a lot of these advantages or disadvantages highlight how well you are able to play in a particular form.

[Vomikron Noxis]

 

 

16 minutes ago, Killax said:

That is my thake on it. You can go heavier Rotbringers as Daemons offcourse, the advantage here is that you obtain more attacks in a smaller area and as a result have more place to put the Blight Tree support into effect. But overall the mix to me is the strongest choice here. Wether or not you thake a Battalion, which seems very optional here too.

The Great Unclean One fits into this as the General. Support is gained through him, he arguably has the best Command Trait for chopping down hordes and with the Bell he makes pretty much the whole army as fast as typical cavalry. I do think your thake on it is somewhat correct. To give an impression, the 30 Bearers are 320 points, the Rotbringers 160 per 5, so also 320 for 10. You will have a relative elite army but make no mistake, you also want to have at lest 3 of those Blight Trees. 

The moment you skip on Battalions you open more breathing room for support. I don't know the full cost listing of Nurgle's Battalions but if they are all 140 points or more I deem it very likely you'd rather have more units instead. One additional Herald and one Sorcerer of Nurgle do more as most Battalions do here. Mortal wounds matter a lot so a single Rotbringer Sorcerer is a guaranteed thake in my opinion, same with the GUO, despite him thaking up a lot of points. But those two Heroes alone pretty much do the same as a Bloodthirster and Bloodsecrator do for Khorne. Add in Sloppity as the functional Bloodstoker equivelant and yeah you should be good. 

As a must buy/must get list, this would be my choice if I would go for it:
- Maggotkin of Nurgle Battletome
- Maggotkin of Nurgle cards (optional, but it's cool to have, you'll love it later when all is updated and you can reflect upon the good old days  )
- Great Unclean One kit, likely getting the first for the Bell and Flail General, but magnetize and you will be happier. If you pick a second one it will be for Rotigus.
- (2x +)30 'Bearer bombs', at least two if your aim is to go competitive.
- Rotbringer Sorcerer.
- (3x +) Ferulent Gnarlmaw's, I know it's kind of expensive and scenery but they are really why some units seem so expensive. 
- Really season to taste with the models you like. This can be any of the Rotbringers but I deem them like Wrathmongers now, obviously slightly less insane in potential but great for flanking purposes. If you want to go for a Blight Knight flyer bomb that option seems good to me aswell but stamping forward with a massive horde all at once (Murderhost style) is something I can confirm as working extremely well  

There are still two things new players should consider here which they might deem as unfun but I know a true Nurgle fan doesn't mind. Those are:
1. This army has A LOT of book keeping, easy to forget triggers and effects, I'll try to help you folks out with the cards but even that can only cover so much  
2. This army seems to be costed and designed completely with the Nurgle Allegiance in mind. Without the Nurgle Allegiance I just can't see myself paying 320 points for 30 Plaguebearers, they need the synergy. The synergy is exclusive to this Allegiance.

Curious why you think 2x blobs are needed? I kind of have the intention of running one with 2 x BKs as my battleline. I think you’re spot on about the battalions not really being required though.

[shadowgra]

11 minutes ago, Killax said:

1 hour ago, Tasman said:

 

That is my thake on it. You can go heavier Rotbringers as Daemons offcourse, the advantage here is that you obtain more attacks in a smaller area and as a result have more place to put the Blight Tree support into effect. But overall the mix to me is the strongest choice here. Wether or not you thake a Battalion, which seems very optional here too.

The Great Unclean One fits into this as the General. Support is gained through him, he arguably has the best Command Trait for chopping down hordes and with the Bell he makes pretty much the whole army as fast as typical cavalry. I do think your thake on it is somewhat correct. To give an impression, the 30 Bearers are 320 points, the Rotbringers 160 per 5, so also 320 for 10. You will have a relative elite army but make no mistake, you also want to have at lest 3 of those Blight Trees. 

The moment you skip on Battalions you open more breathing room for support. I don't know the full cost listing of Nurgle's Battalions but if they are all 140 points or more I deem it very likely you'd rather have more units instead. One additional Herald and one Sorcerer of Nurgle do more as most Battalions do here. Mortal wounds matter a lot so a single Rotbringer Sorcerer is a guaranteed thake in my opinion, same with the GUO, despite him thaking up a lot of points. But those two Heroes alone pretty much do the same as a Bloodthirster and Bloodsecrator do for Khorne. Add in Sloppity as the functional Bloodstoker equivelant and yeah you should be good. 

I do not completely agree on that. While daemons need to complete themselves through mortals, the reverse is not totally true. The blight cyst and the plaguetouched warband will be strongly competitive choices in my opinion and they hardly will need support from daemons. 

The support from blight trees is fundamental to our army. The run+charge is so massive for a unit slow like BK or knights or PBS.

About guo, he is not the only general option imho. The harbinger is still reaaally useful and strong, can have access to daemon traits and artefact. Also the loa, the glottkin and the lob can be good generals depending on your list.

And in the end about battalions i feel that while daemons can simply forget about them, for rotbringer they bring so much to the table. I mean, a sorcerer or a -1 to be hit in cc for every unit in every turn? Plus a cool MW engine.

[Killax]

Just now, Vomikron Noxis said:

Curious why you think 2x blobs are needed? I kind of have the intention of running one with 2 x BKs as my battleline. I think you’re spot on about the battalions not really being required though.

Prime reason for that is a back-up blob. I would say you want to run 60-90 Bloodletters with Khorne, 60-90 Vulkite Berzerkers with Fyreslayers and this is basically how I feel the meta has developed with GH2017. With one Bearer bomb I believe that they will be targeted out and ultimately they arn't immortal either. But dealing with two of those units is simply said incredibly difficult to do. 

While I certainly think you can go with Blightkings I do believe that the stacking of healing, returning potentially with banners, adding attacks with the GUO and being able to daisy-chain to a Ferulent Gnarlmaw will be very important. Mind you I see those Blight Trees like similar support and 30 bearer units will be able to obtain the provits from it easier.

[smucreo]

I don't know if I would deem the 2x 30 bearer bombs as a must buy, they will probably be good but for now I feel several lists can be viable. I do think that the GUO is a must buy though, the bell offers too much support to pass up. 

On a related note, my list is still under construction and waiting for the full battletome to be released, but for now I'm probably going to go for several units of blightkings, a lord of blight and a sorcerer to fill the blight cyst battalion requirements and then get a GUO to support them with a bell. The bell + the 2" extra from the wheel + the trees giving run and charge sound really good and this core can be easily supported with a multitude of things depending on where I end up going with my army. I'd like to include plagueclaws but I don't know how competitive it will really be for now, as I said.

[Vomikron Noxis]

3 minutes ago, Killax said:

Prime reason for that is a back-up blob. I would say you want to run 60-90 Bloodletters with Khorne, 60-90 Vulkite Berzerkers with Fyreslayers and this is basically how I feel the meta has developed with GH2017. With one Bearer bomb I believe that they will be targeted out and ultimately they arn't immortal either. But dealing with two of those units is simply said incredibly difficult to do. 

While I certainly think you can go with Blightkings I do believe that the stacking of healing, returning potentially with banners, adding attacks with the GUO and being able to daisy-chain to a Ferulent Gnarlmaw will be very important. Mind you I see those Blight Trees like similar support and 30 bearer units will be able to obtain the provits from it easier.

Yeh you’re probably right there... what’s your take on Drones? Without their MW locus they seem to have lost out a lot. Might be worth just investing the points in more plaguebearers and support characters.

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

I do not completely agree on that. While daemons need to complete themselves through mortals, the reverse is not totally true. The blight cyst and the plaguetouched warband will be strongly competitive choices in my opinion and they hardly will need support from daemons. 

The support from blight trees is fundamental to our army. The run+charge is so massive for a unit slow like BK or knights or PBS.

About guo, he is not the only general option imho. The harbinger is still reaaally useful and strong, can have access to daemon traits and artefact. Also the loa, the glottkin and the lob can be good generals depending on your list.

And in the end about battalions i feel that while daemons can simply forget about them, for rotbringer they bring so much to the table. I mean, a sorcerer or a -1 to be hit in cc for every unit in every turn? Plus a cool MW engine.

Give it a try, see how it will work out for you. I am not saying you can't go Rotbringer heavy. I am saying that there are a lot of pro's to having model quantity and attack quantity  
I do agree with you that Blight Tree support is this army.

The Harbringer is certainly really useful and strong. Same goes for the Glottkin. But what is a key selling point to me for the GUO is the Artefact that forces 6+'s to be re-rolled on that 130mm base. In addition, if you can't make it to combat fast enough the Plaguebearers have a build in defence that shouldn't be skipped upon. It's amazing. This combination of cutting hits and being a giant tarpit in my opinion is the biggest strenght presented here. 

I belive the coolest Mortal Wound engines come from a GUO general using his Command Trait in conjunction with the Rotbringer spell for Mortal wounds.

[Killax]

2 minutes ago, Vomikron Noxis said:

Yeh you’re probably right there... what’s your take on Drones? Without their MW locus they seem to have lost out a lot. Might be worth just investing the points in more plaguebearers and support characters.

The Drones are great Hero hunters, which combined with the Blight Tree placement really allow for some good board control. I do see them as more of support because well, 110 points per Knight on Drone is quite expensive. The Plaguebearer drones are great for this purpose too. 

I personally do believe that the game is currently designed in such a way that a Monster general with AoE effects is often the best General choice and that support Heroes who are cheap are often the best other Hero choices. Which isn't to say you can't go wild and expensive bombs but there is no real need to hurry that much with Nurgle on paper.

One of the ways you can stop competitive Khorne armies is actually to thake things at your pace and Nurgle seems very great for this. The shooting phase shouldnt hurt Plaguebearers too much anyway and this is a very strong asset when your support Hero (cheap and small) is behind the first Ferulent Gnarlmaw. The set up isn't too difficult. What's difficult is the whole book keeping aspect and triggers that are very easy to miss because there are that many.

[smucreo]

One question, does any one know if the blight cyst requirements (0-1 sorcerer to be more specific) can be filled with the slaves to darkness chaos sorcerer? I feel it's a much better option than the rotbringer sorcerer since the lore he can access offers good ranged mortal wound output and he has that nasty ability to reroll failed saves on your guys.

[shadowgra]

The rotbringer sorcerer is a mortal and can use the mortal Nurgle lore. The good thing of rotbringers is that they have access to 2 lores, 2 sets of command traits and artefacts

[smucreo]

Yeah but if you want to use the mortal lore (which honestly looks good) you are better off going for the chaos sorcerer right? 

[smucreo]

Yeah, Blades is great but it's just that I'd be wary of putting too many eggs in one basket. That's why I think BK are better off with a sorcerer using the mortal lore instead of the rotbringer one. Gambling on exploding 6s too much can be risky vs any armies that have debuffs to hit, plus the ranged mortal wound output complements them so nicely. That's why I wanted to know if I could use the chaos sorcerer instead of the rotbringers one, I feel it's better in this case!

But I do agree that if going for bearers + herald + sorcerer you are better off casting blades on them.