So....What Do We Do Against Massed Skyfires?

[Caffran101]

50 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

The meta is constantly shifting, there's always going to be something causing problems I would imagine....But that's cool, right? As you said, solving the puzzle is part of the fun of wargaming. I wouldn't say this puzzle is unsolvable either; playing to the battleplan as you say may yield results, though I appreciate is not the answer you wanted!!

This so hard. The question of this topic should really be changed to "what are the strengths / weaknesses of the new kharadron Lords and how can Destruction exploit / defend against them"

 

My only suggestion to dealing with massed skyfires is to high their weak spot - the shaman? Get some spear chukkas / thundertusks into him. Then hope for a double turns and charge in. Hopefully we will get something like the mirrorshield item come the battletome reworks.

Not really much of a suggestion though =(

Honestly, you'd be better off not worrying about the strengths of one particular strong list, and instead build a well rounded, strong destruction army capable of competing at the scenarios and faring well against most lists.

Also, try really hard not to come up against them! Worked for me a SCGT! =D

[Solaris]

1 hour ago, Gauche said:

Adding something like a giant block of Fimir Warriors fundamentally changes an army, you cannot just sprinkle something like that in. Ignore the fact that the unit may or may not be an answer, are they enough of an answer to completely change an army? I don't know. I think units like that are an excellent argument for having sideboards at major events but that is outside the scope of this topic.

Isn't that a bit of a strange approach though? What is the purpose of the thread if you do not want to change your army to adjust to this new guy on the block?

Now, if my memory serves me right you either play a BCR+Kunnin Rukk army or a double Kunnin Rukk. Both of those lists consist of two main building blocks, and lack the wiggle room necessary to simply sprinkle in some Skyfire counters. This leads to the following question:

Can we cut one of these two building blocks (BCR/KR) and replace it with something else that 1) counters Skyfires and 2) allows us to remain competitive against the other heavy hitting lists? If so, what do we cut, and what do we replace it with? If not, the remaining option is to just keep playing the same thing and hope not to face Tzeentch / hope to get lucky with the scenario.

As others have said, I do believe target saturation is the best way to deal with this kind of opponent. Fimir Warriors and Ogors are both cheap and durable units (120 points for 3) that can be spammed. We could run something like:

Frostlord on Stonehorn
2x Huskard on Thundertusk
5x3 Fimir Warriors/Ogors
20 Moonclan Grots
2 Grot Fanatics

Alternatively, the Frostlord could be dropped for a third Huskard and another 120 points to spend on Grots/Fimir/Ogors. Could something like this be an answer? How would it stack up against the other strong lists out there?

[Fungrim]

8 hours ago, ChippyRick said:

It just felt like the right thing to do

To be fair, the stats for them are pretty solid, docent potential range damage and good in a fight. With the speed they should be able to use both options to reach out and hit units like Skyfires. Will be testing it soon.

I've been telling myself for ages that when I finely throw caution to the wind and buy a Forge World piece, it'll be a Troll Hag, but I've been looking more and more at the Magma Dragon recently... so, so tempted...

2 of them sounds horrific!

[Gauche]

53 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Isn't that a bit of a strange approach though? What is the purpose of the thread if you do not want to change your army to adjust to this new guy on the block?

Now, if my memory serves me right you either play a BCR+Kunnin Rukk army or a double Kunnin Rukk. Both of those lists consist of two main building blocks, and lack the wiggle room necessary to simply sprinkle in some Skyfire counters. This leads to the following question:

Can we cut one of these two building blocks (BCR/KR) and replace it with something else that 1) counters Skyfires and 2) allows us to remain competitive against the other heavy hitting lists? If so, what do we cut, and what do we replace it with? If not, the remaining option is to just keep playing the same thing and hope not to face Tzeentch / hope to get lucky with the scenario.

As others have said, I do believe target saturation is the best way to deal with this kind of opponent. Fimir Warriors and Ogors are both cheap and durable units (120 points for 3) that can be spammed. We could run something like:

Frostlord on Stonehorn
2x Huskard on Thundertusk
5x3 Fimir Warriors/Ogors
20 Moonclan Grots
2 Grot Fanatics

Alternatively, the Frostlord could be dropped for a third Huskard and another 120 points to spend on Grots/Fimir/Ogors. Could something like this be an answer? How would it stack up against the other strong lists out there?

Yes, you misunderstood my sentiment a bit. I was saying there's no point in changing a list to beat something and opening up more weaknesses to other things. Skyfires is the only weakness I perceive in my current list, I'm selfishly trying to find a way to counter them. Adding something like Fimir Warriors would remove either my Kunnin' Rukk, which greatly weakens me against a ton of armies, or remove my Thundertusks which opens me up against Mirror Shields, Sylvaneth, and so on. Neither of those packages are worth dropping for a tournament list, to my eyes.

 

@Chris Tomlin I run mixed Kunnin' Rukk, using 3 Thundertusks. When most people say Monster Mash for BCR they mean the Frostlord on Stonehorn and 3 Thundertusk variant, usually backed by Moonclan Grots. I don't consider that a Tier 1 army but that's my personal rating. I'm sure it was once at the top of the food chain but it has too many problems with existing gunlines. 

Also, I know I sound a bit high and mighty with these ratings of lists, player skill and strength of schedule matter a lot more to me than the list. It's just not possible for me to have a conversation online about those two factors since they cannot be known ahead of time. That's why things like BCR Monster Mash and Tomb Kings have won major tournaments semi-recently.

My only goal is to not only be the best player I can be but also bring the best equipped army that I can. Can I outplay someone who makes a lot of mistakes using 27 Skyfires? You bet. But as I've mentioned I never, ever underestimate my opponent.

[Solaris]

1 minute ago, Gauche said:

Yes, you misunderstood my sentiment a bit. I was saying there's no point in changing a list to beat something and opening up more weaknesses to other things. Skyfires is the only weakness I perceive in my current list, I'm selfishly trying to find a way to counter them. Adding something like Fimir Warriors would remove either my Kunnin' Rukk, which greatly weakens me against a ton of armies, or remove my Thundertusks which opens me up against Mirror Shields, Sylvaneth, and so on. Neither of those packages are worth dropping for a tournament list, to my eyes.

Which is fine of course, but doesn't that sentiment make the whole thread moot? To my understanding, the point of this thread is to discuss what tools we have available to deal with Skyfires. Or is it that you want to discuss tactical options on how to deal with Skyfires by using specifically the Kunnin' Rukk and Thundertusks?

[Gauche]

9 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Which is fine of course, but doesn't that sentiment make the whole thread moot? To my understanding, the point of this thread is to discuss what tools we have available to deal with Skyfires. Or is it that you want to discuss tactical options on how to deal with Skyfires by using specifically the Kunnin' Rukk and Thundertusks?

I'm fine with people discussing the tools, this thread isn't for my sole benefit. I am commenting from my perspective to try and get a side conversation going about how I can improve. But if someone gets recommendations on how to counter Skyfires generally, that's awesome and hopefully the thread was a help to them.

[Forestreveries]

What I do is take 6 Kurnoth Hunters with bows and a Hurricanum and sit them all inside a nice big bit of cover so they all have 3+ saves and hit on 2's,

Deploy as one drop and choose to go first so they don't have inspiring presence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then roll 11/12 1's to hit and only do 1 wound [emoji1303]

 

 

Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

 

[Gauche]

6 minutes ago, Forestreveries said:

What I do is take 6 Kurnoth Hunters with bows and a Hurricanum and sit them all inside a nice big bit of cover so they all have 3+ saves and hit on 2's,

Deploy as one drop and choose to go first so they don't have inspiring presence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then roll 11/12 1's to hit and only do 1 wound

 

 

Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

 

How does the Hurricanum buff the Kurnoth when it specifies Free People Keyword? Battalion?

[Nico]

Quote

What I do is take 6 Kurnoth Hunters with bows and a Hurricanum and sit them all inside a nice big bit of cover so they all have 3+ saves and hit on 2's,

You mean hit on 3s right? You haven't been trolling @Chris Tomlin all these games thinking that Bow Hunters hit naturally on 3s have you?

[Nico]

Quote

How does the Hurricanum buff the Kurnoth when it specifies Free People Keyword? Battalion?

It's not keyword specific. It's just Order units from your army.

[Gauche]

11 minutes ago, Nico said:

It's not keyword specific. It's just Order units from your army.

Did they change it? The Warscroll I see in the Compendium specifies Free People.

Looks like the Compendium says Free People and the App says Order. That's weird. When did it get changed?

[Nico]

Probably when the Order book came out, so a long time ago.

[Chris Tomlin]

17 hours ago, Fungrim said:

I've been telling myself for ages that when I finely throw caution to the wind and buy a Forge World piece, it'll be a Troll Hag, but I've been looking more and more at the Magma Dragon recently... so, so tempted...

2 of them sounds horrific!

Magma Dragons are great fun. Before the Generals Handbook came out I was using one in all of my games with Ironjawz. Unfortunately batteline killed my ability to take it without changing the whole build. Bit of a shame as I have the Mierce Angrislaug model which is phenomenal and really deserves a paint job!

16 hours ago, Gauche said:

@Chris Tomlin I run mixed Kunnin' Rukk, using 3 Thundertusks. When most people say Monster Mash for BCR they mean the Frostlord on Stonehorn and 3 Thundertusk variant, usually backed by Moonclan Grots. I don't consider that a Tier 1 army but that's my personal rating. I'm sure it was once at the top of the food chain but it has too many problems with existing gunlines. 

Also, I know I sound a bit high and mighty with these ratings of lists, player skill and strength of schedule matter a lot more to me than the list. It's just not possible for me to have a conversation online about those two factors since they cannot be known ahead of time. That's why things like BCR Monster Mash and Tomb Kings have won major tournaments semi-recently.

My only goal is to not only be the best player I can be but also bring the best equipped army that I can. Can I outplay someone who makes a lot of mistakes using 27 Skyfires? You bet. But as I've mentioned I never, ever underestimate my opponent.

Yeh, the 'tusks and Rukk variant is what is considered the strongest Destruction build and is doing the best over here at present. Agree with you on the Mooclan (BCR + Moonclan) variant, or the "Maxim" list as it's sometimes known, it definitely has it's weaknesses now.

I don't think there's anything wrong with how you're coming across at all mate, totally fine to want to use the strongest build possible and compete. People shouldn't be made to feel bad for that! Just for context it would be nice to know who you are, where you're playing and how you're doing etc  

In general I'm just happy to see tournament AoS picking up in more places.

16 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

What I do is take 6 Kurnoth Hunters with bows and a Hurricanum and sit them all inside a nice big bit of cover so they all have 3+ saves and hit on 2's,

Deploy as one drop and choose to go first so they don't have inspiring presence.

Then roll 11/12 1's to hit and only do 1 wound

Ha!! Classic Aaron. I'll come back and do some likes in a bit when I've got some to give.

16 hours ago, Nico said:

You mean hit on 3s right? You haven't been trolling @Chris Tomlin all these games thinking that Bow Hunters hit naturally on 3s have you?

I think Aaron's Hunters are permanently in Damned terrain tbh

16 hours ago, Gauche said:

Did they change it? The Warscroll I see in the Compendium specifies Free People.

Looks like the Compendium says Free People and the App says Order. That's weird. When did it get changed?

16 hours ago, Nico said:

Probably when the Order book came out, so a long time ago.

Yeh, unfortunately it's been that way for ages. It's a popular choice for Sylvaneth and mixed Order lists over here...can't think why

 

[Nico]

Quote

I think Aaron's Hunters are permanently in Damned terrain tbh 

Yep - funny how they also seem to find it.  Same with Kunning Rukk and Skyfires.... Would be better if Damned only buffed units in the combat phase.

[Chris Tomlin]

23 minutes ago, Nico said:

Yep - funny how they also seem to find it.  Same with Kunning Rukk and Skyfires.... Would be better if Damned only buffed units in the combat phase.

From an Ironjawz point of view....yeh!  

In seriousness, I dunno. I'm not sure that Damned terrain actually does what the games designers would've intended tbh. As it is, the D3 mortal wounds does nothing to the units who gain most from it  

[Nico]

Quote

In seriousness, I dunno. I'm not sure that Damned terrain actually does what the games designers would've intended tbh. As it is, the D3 mortal wounds does nothing to the units who gain most from it  

If it was lose D3 models, then that might balance things out, with the unfortunate move towards multiwound turbo archers.

[Chris Tomlin]

9 minutes ago, Nico said:

If it was lose D3 models, then that might balance things out, with the unfortunate move towards multiwound turbo archers.

Interesting suggestion. Whilst I'm not sure it's necessary, I suspect that would be closer in line with the intended interaction (I acknowledge that is pure speculation!). Love the term "multiwound turbo archers" haha!

[Gauche]

I think I'm going to get some empty bases and just run through a Turn 1 game against myself a few times with both Skyfire variants. The most awkward bit is that every tournament is different, some use Sideboards and some don't. Some are moving to dual list, some aren't. The best I can do is have some familiarity with deploying and doing a Turn 1 against the army.

Recently I swapped all my Thundertusks to Talisman of Protection, going as far as taking a cheap, "useless" Battalion just for a third Artefact. I think that's the way to go with prevalent Skyfires/Longstrikes. I'd love to get 1-2 Bolt Throwers as they're the best means of picking off support Heroes Turn 1 but it's probably not viable in my build.

I think on average it takes 18 Skyfires with Shaman bonus to kill a Thundertusk with a Talisman, that's a fairly acceptable trade. Unless I'm mistaken about the rules they cannot split fire due to 1 Attack each so that's an exploitable weakness, making if very likely to put a unit of 9 into a Big Boss for example. The more I theory the more I think 18 Skyfires is beatable with a few Destruction builds but 27 is just a bit much without being able to snipe both the Shamans Turn 1.

[Chris Tomlin]

7 minutes ago, Gauche said:

Unless I'm mistaken about the rules they cannot split fire due to 1 Attack each so that's an exploitable weakness

Unfortunately they can split fire mate. No restriction in the rules on this.

[Gauche]

Ah yes I misread that passage, it does say target units. Everything else mentions a single target but that's enough. There is more granularity to the rules than people think.

[Solaris]

1 hour ago, Gauche said:

The most awkward bit is that every tournament is different, some use Sideboards and some don't. Some are moving to dual list, some aren't.

I love this aspect since it prevents the game from going stale and ensures that there is no universal best build. Forcing players to constantly adjust and adapt is really healthy for the game in the long run.

[kozokus]

Got an idea!

1. Field a Lord of The Storm formation with LCOSD and Heraldors.
2. Turn1 charge!
3. Hope he is shot by a 4+ for the waves of power so he has to retreat and HE CANNOT SHOOT!
4. Die.
5. go buy 6 Aetherkhemist

 

[Gauche]

5 hours ago, Solaris said:

I love this aspect since it prevents the game from going stale and ensures that there is no universal best build. Forcing players to constantly adjust and adapt is really healthy for the game in the long run.

A bit off topic but I disagree with this. There are still best builds, there's just three instead of one. I have a best build for single list, one for dual, and one for Sideboard. It just saps player skill since it's much harder to get the reps in consistently and I dislike anything that takes from player skill. But that's me.

I would really like a standardized format, handed down from the heavens by GW. Other companies do this and it works beautifully, GW is just super hands off and barely acknowledges the tournament scene on the best days. Although it's pretty much always been that way so I can't complain much.

[Solaris]

2 hours ago, Gauche said:

A bit off topic but I disagree with this. There are still best builds, there's just three instead of one. I have a best build for single list, one for dual, and one for Sideboard. It just saps player skill since it's much harder to get the reps in consistently and I dislike anything that takes from player skill. But that's me.

I would really like a standardized format, handed down from the heavens by GW. Other companies do this and it works beautifully, GW is just super hands off and barely acknowledges the tournament scene on the best days. Although it's pretty much always been that way so I can't complain much.

I guess that would depend on how you define player skill. Adaptability is certainly a skill also. But you're right, this is entirely off topic.

[Forestreveries]

What I do is take 6 Kurnoth Hunters with bows and a Hurricanum and sit them all inside a nice big bit of cover so they all have 3+ saves and hit on 2's,

You mean hit on 3s right? You haven't been trolling [mention=45]Chris Tomlin[/mention] all these games thinking that Bow Hunters hit naturally on 3s have you?

Sorry, forgot to specify the cover was Damned [emoji1303]


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