Infernal Standard

[Hampshire Hammerers]

Wight kings w/ infernal standards;

I've just finished painting one up.

does anyone use them in their lists? Is he any good? 

 

Thanks,

J 

[Leviathus]

I wonder as well. Was also thinking of putting him on skeletal steed. So would like to hear people's experience with it too.

[Darth Alec]

He's... ok. You'll want him only if you are bringing lots of single wound models. If you do, he'll add another layer of tank to your troops. Problem is a 4+ save and 5 wounds. If your opponent can bring decent firepower, he's going down. I'd add him into an infantry heavy list, rather than build a list around him.

[Tronhammer NZ]

I use him in most of my games. He has saved Arkhan, a Mortis Engine, Krell, and countless lesser minions. Often giving them enough time to heal or escape. I love the face-palm moment that my opponents experience.

When up against a really powerful unit with loads of attacks, the model dies, comes back thanks to the standard, and all those extra attacks are gone. One sixth of the time, it works every time.

[Hampshire Hammerers]

Fantastic feedback, thank you!

taking him to club night tomorrow to try him out!

[mhsellwood]

Hey it would be great to hear how the Infernal Standard went. I feel that Darth Alec is right as it only saves against death, so single wound and (particularly) high value models like Grave Guard would benefit most.

On the other hand I know how frustrating it can be when you pour wounds onto a model and then... they get back up again! One of these days I will kill that phoenix permanently.

[Nico]

It's not terribly clear what happens if there are more than enough wounds to kill the model, whether you roll to see if it survives and then keep applying the excess wounds and see if it survives again (this is how Too Dumb to Die now works following the FAQ GW released - a good change as it prevents you having multiple models with wounds inflicted on them), or whether the excess wounds are lost and the model survives.

[Hampshire Hammerers]

15 hours ago, mhsellwood said:

Hey it would be great to hear how the Infernal Standard went. I feel that Darth Alec is right as it only saves against death, so single wound and (particularly) high value models like Grave Guard would benefit most.

On the other hand I know how frustrating it can be when you pour wounds onto a model and then... they get back up again! One of these days I will kill that phoenix permanently.

Tried him out at club night tonight. Really impressed. He'll definitely be a regular addition. I run x20 grave guard & x20 skeleton units in my list, so he was invaluable at keeping me in the game ( we played kill the beast from Ghal Maraz )

Planting the banner for the 18" range is amazing & he easily gets forgotten at the back of the board - so chucking him in combat Late game while still having a 9" infernal standard range worked well. 

[Hampshire Hammerers]

14 hours ago, Nico said:

It's not terribly clear what happens if there are more than enough wounds to kill the model, whether you roll to see if it survives and then keep applying the excess wounds and see if it survives again (this is how Too Dumb to Die now works following the FAQ GW released - a good change as it prevents you having multiple models with wounds inflicted on them), or whether the excess wounds are lost and the model survives.

We killed the model, then rolled to see if it just survives on a 6+ after ( like Plaguebearers )

So the 'attack' fails - which to me is specific to the model/weapon that did the damage. - written very dodge on the warscroll though!

[Nico]

You are right that if for example a Morghast Harbinger is exactly killed by a 3 damage hit and you roll a 6, then the Morghast will be alive with 3 wounds remaining - the entire killing blow is cancelled out. 

Some people play it as you finish all of the attacks, kill X models and then roll X dice to see if any of them survive. This seems defensible on one reading of the rule, but you could just as well keep rolling to see if each model survives a killing blow until all the successive killing blows are done.

[opqdan]

I don't quite understand how this ability plays out with multi-wound models, considering the ordering of: attacks roll to become hits, hits roll to become wounds, wounds are saved against, remaining wounds become damage (sometimes rolling to get the damage).  The ability says to roll when a model is slain and "the wound that slew him is ignored", but a model is only "slain" after damage is applied.  A lot of rules seem to conflate wounds and damage together.

So let's say I have a unit of 2 wound black knights in range of a wight king with the Infernal Standard.  If an attacker rolls 2 successful wounds, each dealing 3 damage, then what is the result?  Normally, this is 6 damage, so that kills 3 knights.  I then get to roll three dice (slain models) to try to get sixes, but there were only 2 "wounds" done (that resulted in 3 damage each).  If one of those dice comes up as a 6, then the "wound" that did the damage is ignored, so the whole 3 damage is ignored.  The result is that only one knight dies, and another takes 1 damage right (3 damage from the one wound). If that same unit did D3 damage instead, and the player rolled 2 and 3 (total of 5).  Now 2 knights die, and another takes 1 damage.  I roll 2 dice for the slain models, but I need to roll separately for the 2 damage wound, and the 3 damage wound so I know which one gets ignored if that die were to come up as a 6.

If this is correct, then this becomes a very powerful ability for low wound models.  If a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster attacks a unit of skeletons and wounds with his Bloodflail, I get to roll 6 dice (6 damage from that one wound, 6 skellys would be slain) to ignore that whole wound/attack?  That's a 66.5% chance of ignoring the whole 6 damage, which sounds way too high (a moderate sized group of skeletons or zombies could wrap up a bloodthirster for a full game as he keeps doing no damage to them).  It also doesn't seem to make any sense from fluff either.  Why would a model "saturated with death magic, which can sustain the undead" be able to turn damage away from other's in the unit (which is what would be happening if you ignore all the damage from the wound).

But, you also can't have them pop back to life at 1 wound because that could lead to multiple models with wounds allocated, which is forbidden.  It also wouldn't be appropriate to have them come to life at full wounds because it doesn't take into account previous attacks.  The only option is to have the model return to the number of wounds that it had before the damage was dealt.

Personally, I think that the best way of reading it is the following:

1) Apply all damage to the unit and choose which models will be slain.

2) For every slain model roll a die one at a time (in order to deal with the possibility of a model in the unit already having allocated wounds from another attack).

3) If you roll a 6, then the "damage" to that specific model is ignored and they have as many wounds as they had before the attack happened.

The result here then is that units of low wound models get to roll more dice to get 6's, and units of high wound models get to roll less dice, but have the potential for ignoring more damage.

 

Edit: Actually, this can still result in multiple models having wounds allocated to them, so it can't be right either.  If the unit of black knights has previously taken damage, and one knight has 1/2 wounds, then there can be an issue if an attack were to do 3 damage.  Two knights would die, 2 dice get rolled, if the pre-wounded model comes up as a six and he returns to 1/2 wounds, then the next knight would still have one damage and would also be 1/2 wounds.  Ugh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grimnaud]

4 minutes ago, opqdan said:

I don't quite understand how this ability plays out with multi-wound models, considering the ordering of: attacks roll to become hits, hits roll to become wounds, wounds are saved against, remaining wounds become damage (sometimes rolling to get the damage).  The ability says to roll when a model is slain and "the wound that slew him is ignored", but a model is only "slain" after damage is applied.  A lot of rules seem to conflate wounds and damage together.

So let's say I have a unit of 2 wound black knights in range of a wight king with the Infernal Standard.  If an attacker rolls 2 successful wounds, each dealing 3 damage, then what is the result?  Normally, this is 6 damage, so that kills 3 knights.  I then get to roll three dice (slain models) to try to get sixes, but there were only 2 "wounds" done (that resulted in 3 damage each).  If one of those dice comes up as a 6, then the "wound" that did the damage is ignored, so the whole 3 damage is ignored.  The result is that only one knight dies, and another takes 1 damage right (3 damage from the one wound). If that same unit did D3 damage instead, and the player rolled 2 and 3 (total of 5).  Now 2 knights die, and another takes 1 damage.  I roll 2 dice for the slain models, but I need to roll separately for the 2 damage wound, and the 3 damage wound so I know which one gets ignored if that die were to come up as a 6.

If this is correct, then this becomes a very powerful ability for low wound models.  If a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster attacks a unit of skeletons and wounds with his Bloodflail, I get to roll 6 dice (6 damage from that one wound, 6 skellys would be slain) to ignore that whole wound/attack?  That's a 66.5% chance of ignoring the whole 6 damage, which sounds way too high (a moderate sized group of skeletons or zombies could wrap up a bloodthirster for a full game as he keeps doing no damage to them).  It also doesn't seem to make any sense from fluff either.  Why would a model "saturated with death magic, which can sustain the undead" be able to turn damage away from other's in the unit (which is what would be happening if you ignore all the damage from the wound).

But, you also can't have them pop back to life at 1 wound because that could lead to multiple models with wounds allocated, which is forbidden.  It also wouldn't be appropriate to have them come to life at full wounds because it doesn't take into account previous attacks.  The only option is to have the model return to the number of wounds that it had before the damage was dealt.

Personally, I think that the best way of reading it is the following:

1) Apply all damage to the unit and choose which models will be slain.

2) For every slain model roll a die one at a time (in order to deal with the possibility of a model in the unit already having allocated wounds from another attack).

3) If you roll a 6, then the "damage" to that specific model is ignored and they have as many wounds as they had before the attack happened.

The result here then is that units of low wound models get to roll more dice to get 6's, and units of high wound models get to roll less dice, but have the potential for ignoring more damage.

I don't quite agree with your reading of the rules here. Attacks hit, wounds, then that one attack deals damage which is subtracted from the models wounds. When it has suffered damage equal to its wounds the model is slain. Excess wounds are then allocated to the next model in the unit. A powerful attack can kill several model, but it's still only one attack. The infernal standard gives you a one in six chance of ignoring the last wound a model suffers. It doesn't affect the attack. So your Bloodthirster would deal six damage, killing six skeletons. Then you roll a dice for each of them. For every 6, one skeleton is sustained by the standard, and the wound allocated to him is ignored.

You're right that multi wound models poses a problem for the standards special ability. But my reading would be; 1) roll to hit, wound, and save as normal. 2) Allocate enough wounds to a model to slay it if your opponent scored that many. Set any remaining aside for now. 3) Roll for the standard. If the roll was successful, the model still has one wound left. 4) Were there any excess wounds? If so, allocate one to the recently restored model. Repeat step 3 and 4 as many times as necessary. 

 

 

[Nico]

A ludicrously complicated rule (as illustrated by the thoughtful discussions above) - I'm minded to suggest that it is just house ruled so that it acts like any other "ward save" against every wound inflicted. It's a recipe for arguments/confusion otherwise. 

[Darth Alec]

I interprete it a bit simpler. Black Knights sustain 8 damage from 2 attacks. This normally kills four. Therefore, roll 4 dice to see whether or not the model is slain. I feel like all damage is applied simultaneously, and so there's no back-and-forth on a single model. X models were slain, roll 1 dice per model.  

[Hampshire Hammerers]

This was 100% my take on it

[Nico]

Quote

I interprete it a bit simpler. Black Knights sustain 8 damage from 2 attacks. This normally kills four. Therefore, roll 4 dice to see whether or not the model is slain. I feel like all damage is applied simultaneously, and so there's no back-and-forth on a single model. X models were slain, roll 1 dice per model.  

You've chosen a simplified example.

 

What about the more complex case where you take 9 wounds from 3 attacks doing 3 damage each? Four of the models die, however if you roll 3 sixes out of 4 dice, then you would disregard all the 3 hits and take no damage at all (which would mean the fifth guy who would otherwise have taken a wound doesn't take that wound at all). It's a mess. 

[Grimnaud]

11 hours ago, Darth Alec said:

I interprete it a bit simpler. Black Knights sustain 8 damage from 2 attacks. This normally kills four. Therefore, roll 4 dice to see whether or not the model is slain. I feel like all damage is applied simultaneously, and so there's no back-and-forth on a single model. X models were slain, roll 1 dice per model.  

There's no doubt that the rule is a mess and needs to be clarified. I think we can all agree on that. The problem with "x-models slain, roll one dice per model" is that you're circumventing the rules for either wound allocation (as you could potentially end up with four models with one wound each), or the standards own rules (as you would have to end up igoring more than "the wound that slew him", wound singular, when dealing with mulit wound models). I'm not saying that my way is easier in any way, but it is consistant with both of the rules above.

[Sangfroid]

The way it works is as follows for multiple wound models,

gordrakk the fist of gork attack 5 black Knights and as a result of all of his and bigteefs attacks and the resultant save rolls a total of 10 damage has occurred. The best way to picture this now is by having 10 dice to one side to keep track of the wounds left to allocate. 

1) allocate 2 wounds to a black knight (which slays it)

2) Wight kings rule now takes effect roll a dice (let's say you roll a 6) this means black knight is not slain and you have 8 wounds left to allocate

3) as per rule to keep allocating to a model until it is removed, allocate a single wound to the same black knight, roll the dice as per above (let's say this time it's a 6 again!). Black knight is revived still with one wound remaining. 

4) allocate a wound again as in step 3) this time the dice roll is a 3 and so that black knight is removed as a casualty leaving 4 black Knights and 6 wounds left to allocate 

5) repeat the process from step one until all wounds are allocated or all models are removed as casualties. 

 

For or single wound models you may as well just roll the number dice applicable to the total damage pooland then remove the number of casualties that result (I.e 1 for each 1,2,3,4 or 5 rolled) 

 

EDIT: It has to be as such (I.e 1 wound at a time) because the ability doesn't say "the attack" that killed the model it says "the wound" and the damage pool is translated into wounds as the last step of the attack process

Its a similar mechanic to the bubble from the war altar of Sigmar 

as Wight kings are relatively cheap to field I can see a lot of benefit from having 2 maybe (you would only get to roll one dice if the banners overlapped)

[Nico]

Quote

EDIT: It has to be as such (I.e 1 wound at a time) because the ability doesn't say "the attack" that killed the model it says "the wound" and the damage pool is translated into wounds as the last step of the attack process

Hmmm - they've actually amended the rules for this from "the attack that slew him is ignored" in the PDF to  "the wound that slew him is ignored" in the App/Death book. It was the former wording that was causing all the trouble. This clears up a lot of the confusion.

Now's it's just a really poor ward save that only applies to the "fatal" wounds. Interesting.

[Emicus]

Very interesting read. I've been playing the model all wrong it seems (essentially giving a 40k style Feel No Pain). Usually placed at the back of the army out of harms way and plant to buff the force.

[BobTheKnight]

I have been under the impression that wounds are dealt one at a time, because when a unit with a ward against mortal wounds makes individual rolls against each of the mortal wounds it receives.

For example when an arcane bolt hits a unit of chaos warriors for 3 damage it makes 3 5+ rolls and takes a wound for each failed roll.

In the 4 page rulebook in the dealing damage section it implies that you do one at a time.

So with a Wight King banner I'd assume the model resurrects with 1 wound but at that point you'd stop applying wounds as I believe it happens after all the wounds have been applied. 

[mmimzie]

On 6/11/2016 at 8:12 PM, BobTheKnight said:

I have been under the impression that wounds are dealt one at a time, because when a unit with a ward against mortal wounds makes individual rolls against each of the mortal wounds it receives.

For example when an arcane bolt hits a unit of chaos warriors for 3 damage it makes 3 5+ rolls and takes a wound for each failed roll.

In the 4 page rulebook in the dealing damage section it implies that you do one at a time.

So with a Wight King banner I'd assume the model resurrects with 1 wound but at that point you'd stop applying wounds as I believe it happens after all the wounds have been applied. 

Basicly just a 6+ feel no pain. Kind of like nurgle units.

 

The Infernal standard is the inverse of the Mortis engine. I think every list should contain one or the other.  Mortis is great with big fatty models, and  Infernal buffs big nurmous units. Love how death synergizes.