AoS complexity/rules bloat

[Killax]

Just now, Trout said:

Umm...yeah..that's what they'll see.

It's cool you like Open play, don't try to promote it as if it's the best and only way to play.
 

[Trout]

Just now, Killax said:

It's cool you like Open play, don't try to promote it as if it's the best and only way to play.
 

I haven't played an open play game in my life.

[Mayple]

Oh gosh. That's a trainwreck of a misunderstanding if I ever saw one. Remember to doubleread people's posts if you feel wronged by it!  Chances are the meaning is not what you perceived. 

 

[Sleboda]

Yeah,  I'm thinking a few beers, a chill pill, and a dismounting  from a certain elevated equine might help too.

[Nin Win]

16 hours ago, Killax said:

The best way to keep new players out is actually by playing tournament lists exclusively. It's unhealthy for any community. 

This happened with Warmachine/Hordes locally.  There were a handful of players who traveled to big events regularly and every game became their tournament practice.  The more casual players just all faded over time and loads of new players have started, game to a single gaming day and never came back.  When they finally did convince my friend to try the game again and pull out his models, the opponent assassinated his warcaster and won the game on the top of turn 2.  My friend spent more time pulling his miniatures out of his case than playing.  The next day he emailed me about how to use ebay to sell his models.

I also find it strange that people can say that communication somehow won't work, but also seem to miss that saying "no" is communicating.  No gaming is better than bad gaming.  If someone either won't listen or doesn't care about your preferences, then don't play them.  It's okay if two people want different things from the game and subsequently don't play one another.

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, Nin Win said:

This happened with Warmachine/Hordes locally.  There were a handful of players who traveled to big events regularly and every game became their tournament practice.  The more casual players just all faded over time and loads of new players have started, game to a single gaming day and never came back.  When they finally did convince my friend to try the game again and pull out his models, the opponent assassinated his warcaster and won the game on the top of turn 2.  My friend spent more time pulling his miniatures out of his case than playing.  The next day he emailed me about how to use ebay to sell his models.

I also find it strange that people can say that communication somehow won't work, but also seem to miss that saying "no" is communicating.  No gaming is better than bad gaming.  If someone either won't listen or doesn't care about your preferences, then don't play them.  It's okay if two people want different things from the game and subsequently don't play one another.

Warmachine in my opinion suffers from this a lot. Now, since the whole Mk3 vanishing of players due to rules not being that great, PP finally has opened the doors aswell and aims for a balance players like, not so much balance PP strives for. I also believe that due to the way PP promotes Warmachine and Hordes is that you actually can't play the game in a very casual setting even for the basic game.
With this I mean that there are several things rewarded and other things not rewarded that completely removes the hobby aspect of what should be a hobby game...
Examples:
- Painted models are generally not required for any tournament. Meaning that most tournaments will not have many fully painted armies. Typically armies are not 100% painted all around.
- Game is over once you destroy the opposing Warcaster/Warlock, doesn't matter if you had 10 or 60 guys left (and painted ideally).
- Game aims for strategic depth but also promotes the logical use of Warbeasts and Warjacks over infantry (as per Mk 3)
- Conversions follow very strict guidelines and as such are also a rarity. 
So if you have a lot of hobbyist logically who value that over hardcore gaming, it's likely Warmachine and Hordes won't be a massive succes. I still have my army around but also am in no hurry finishing it. Mk3 to me is still a WIP. I'll join once it's finished  

I completely agree with you in terms of communicating and saying no is often the most important message here. I feel the best games are played when both players find a comprimise between what they want from a game. Casual-competative gaming for me is the most fun aspect. That means that some tournament elements will be included but chatting, beer and pretzels are mandatory for those games.

Likewise blending Matched and Narrative play together for me comes as a second nature. The costs found in Battletomes have always helped me out more and the newer players as they scared them away. Largely because there is a pricetag related to this hobby and figuring out "what's enough" matters.

It's because of this that I like to see Battletomes contain the same ammount of info on Keywords that can be found in the Generals Handbook as Narrative gaming too cares about Alliances, Battle Traits, Command Traits and Artefacts. In fact they are the only way to truely create your own character in AoS and therefor very important. It doesn't matter if you want to be the killiest of all, that option is there, but if you want to have a spell-hating gatekeeper then you can too build that character from the Alliance specific Abilities. All of which are not found (for free) on the app. 

[Nin Win]

2 hours ago, Killax said:

Casual-competative gaming for me is the most fun aspect. That means that some tournament elements will be included but chatting, beer and pretzels are mandatory for those games.

Likewise blending Matched and Narrative play together for me comes as a second nature.

Sounds like an awesome way to play.  I think most of the push back in this thread (including mine) has been towards those who don't blend but use the matched play approach to force a certain approach into the larger gaming community.  They have a position of strength in this matter because of how people see matched play as the way to do pick up games and thus it becomes the norm very, very quickly.

Quote

The costs found in Battletomes have always helped me out more and the newer players as they scared them away. Largely because there is a pricetag related to this hobby and figuring out "what's enough" matters.

This is a really good point.

With the new 40k coming out lots of people I know who faded from the warhammers 5-10 years ago and starting to notice the game again.  I've sent them Hinterlands and the 4 pages rules and some warscroll PDFs and shown them just how low "what's enough" can be.  And that the same approach would work for the new 40k as it is so heavily based on Age of Sigmar.  I imagine that despite me not having much use for points, many of them will go on to look at what's all involved in a 1000, 1500 or 2000 point matched play force after they have their warbands for both Hinterlands AoS and 40k.  

[wayniac]

A lot of people don't, however, and refuse to even see the point of "not trying to win".  I think there's a fine line between wanting a good army and wanting to just curbstomp people and this whole "git gud" rubbish where you talk down or even run out people who don't feel the way you do.  That, IMHO, is the biggest issue with that mentality, looking for anything you can to eke even a tiny advantage and then being an ****** about it after the fact.

[Killax]

The culture of that will always stick around. The only thing GW can do and is doing is delve stuff so deep into the Narrative (which is what they exactly do with not printing point costs on Warscrolls, making Battalions, Battletomes and the Generals handbook) to keep that message clear.
Much the same also applies to the way Command Traits and Artefacts are listed in a random system. If you want to you could really build up your character based from some D6 rolls and completely allow randomisation to construct your character (most RPGs have that random button also).

All in all though the hobby allows for both  I'm just a fan of the idea that if you don't play at a tournament that tournament-like lists (completely designed to destroy an opponent, ideally turn 1) have very little to contribute to a community, unless the community absolutely loves that mindset.

For Narrative purposes I've also dived into the creation of giving Battle Trait effects, Command Traits and Artefacts a 'face' I think having such a design on a card can really create inspiration and to me that's what the Age of Sigmar hobby is all about. Not only on a miniature/hobby level but to simply share an opinion and be creative with your own designs. Give input, give critisism to the 'system', all to make the game and hobby eventually even better. 

As a result I hope to see many more additional rules but also in functional division! GW is allready going that way and that really helps. Ideas like this:

Are events Im looking very forward to!

[BunkhouseBuster]

7 hours ago, Nin Win said:

This happened with Warmachine/Hordes locally.  There were a handful of players who traveled to big events regularly and every game became their tournament practice.  The more casual players just all faded over time and loads of new players have started, game to a single gaming day and never came back.  When they finally did convince my friend to try the game again and pull out his models, the opponent assassinated his warcaster and won the game on the top of turn 2.  My friend spent more time pulling his miniatures out of his case than playing.  The next day he emailed me about how to use ebay to sell his models.

I also find it strange that people can say that communication somehow won't work, but also seem to miss that saying "no" is communicating.  No gaming is better than bad gaming.  If someone either won't listen or doesn't care about your preferences, then don't play them.  It's okay if two people want different things from the game and subsequently don't play one another.

^^ THIS.  I tried playing Warmahordes back in 2015 when I was wanting a break from GW games, and I almost regret it.  I liked only a couple of my opponents, but I only won 3 games out of about 50.  While I don't worry about that too much, the level of precision expected out of the players is ridiculous.  Sure, they would at least try to coach newbies like me to "git gud", but for what purpose?  I tried it because the fanboys were lauding Warmahordes as "balanced" and "better" than other wargames, which is a load of bologna (if it was balanced, I should be able to have a chance at winning with any of my models, not the "auto-includes").  I have rambled on about Warmahordes on other forums, so I won't here at this time, but yeah, their competitive drive drove me and a friend out of that game pretty quickly after we realized what was going on.

 

2 hours ago, Killax said:

...

GW is allready going that way and that really helps. Ideas like this:

Are events Im looking very forward to!

GW has certainly turned around in the past two years.  The fact that they are showcasing and promoting fan made and run competitive and narrative events is mind blowing.  If you had told me three years ago that GW would turn things around and be this awesome, I would have called you silly, but asked you for the details and want to know if it is worth the wait (which it has been ).

[Killax]

Certainly! To me Narrative gaming or the blend of Narrative with Matched play (even with a sub-tone of competative play) is what makes things amazing.
One of the reasons I wasn't too active in WFB last years also had to do with how I saw a blend of everything form 'an army'. To date I'm still over the moon that Chaos in AoS is recieving Battletomes/Army books that are dedicated armies to one of the Chaos Gods.

Despite the critique some might have on AoS lore, one thing GW never really accomplished was to have the game be so designed that it actually could match its own lore. If we go down to memory lane we saw Hordes of Chaos as the last truely optional blend of warriors dedicated to one Chaos God and one Chaos god alone. The blend (or unification of Chaos) never made much sence from any Narrative standpoint written before and after that.

Long story short I really want Narrative to dedicate where this game is going. To me mono Tzeentch armies can be powerful and provided Archaon leads the army I can see a blend of Chaos occuring, though the moment the dastardly fellow isn't around is also the moment where Chaos warriors wouldn't unite.

Sayl casting a spell on Bloodletters would have him pierced on the end of a Hellblade, not make him the hottest general around   

[Menkeroth]

That's normal - it's written from time to time that though the Dark Gods don't that like each other, they will unite their forces if need be, and with Archaon it's more often than not. Chaos Undivided as it was back then is no more with us but through Archaon it suffices.

[Trout]

7 hours ago, Auticus said:

When i was full blown in my powergamer days I will say that I and my fellow tournament compatriots ran quite a few people out of the hobby because they weren't "gittin gud".  Looking back on it now its a shame that I was like that, but back then my opinion was if you aren't willfully breaking the game like I was then you deserved to get tabled in two turns and that the only way to play was competitively.  

This culture has not changed though.  We have had guys like I used to be pretty much always, and they are still going strong today.  

What it does is make sure that those that stick around are full blown competitive like we were and kept our tournament practice and tournament games with people that were as good as breaking the game as we were (to give us the best practice).  It was dirty, and I don't like the person that I was back then because it was destructive to the hobby, but that was the mindset and at least I can understand why it is what it is even if today I don't agree and know how to switch between power gamer mode and casual mode.

This is an issue that needs to be dealt with at the individual store level. Games workshop stores I've been to are quite good at this. They specifically cultivate a casual friendly environment that is inviting to new players. I can see this being more of an issue at generic hobby stores. Chances are, if the AoS crowd at your hobby shop is too competitive for you, you won't quit all of gaming entirely, you'll just get into some other game; so, the store probably doesn't really care.

[Travis Baumann]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:06 AM, Killax said:

 

So if someone at GW is reading this  Please! Make races be part of a larger Battletome. Let players select their armies the way they do their characters in Heroes of the Storm, League of Legends and the like. Follow up with a clear class division and I think everybody is happy. By large also because this still is also exactly how DnD does it and DnD still is the parent of Warhammer.

I have to disagree with this.  This is an army not an  individual character.  I don't want to see class as such. Just the leaders/command section is more than a complete Roleplaying party that would be fleshed out with a host of classes to be effective.  My army would have a priest/wizard/cleric selection in addition to heavy melee hitters and hopefully something like a ranger/scout/archer as well as potentially a thief/assassin in order to handle the things that a good group would do to diversify and prosper.  This doesn't even take into account the varied "classes" that would make up the predominant units and certainly does not touch on large monsters or war machines to supplement their strength.

I also disagree with your assessment of multiple powers of Chaos interacting.  My army is based around a Demon Princess - Vallenfyre.  She has been heavily courted by both Slaanesh and Tzeentch but has staved off both of their attempts to put their Mark on her and claim her power and retinue for their own.  Slaanesh has granted her a unit of Deamonetts as body guard and escorts.  Tzeentch has sent several of his mighty Chaos Lords and Sorcerers as well as a unit of Flamers and Skyfires to aid her in her ambitions (but of course he has his own intentions there).  Defiled Beastmen have flocked to her presence as have a host of Chaos Warriors that come from Chaos Undivided as they have witnessed her unearthly beauty as well as her unholy wrath and have pledged themselves to her and her aspirations to rise - they worship HER.  She despises Khorne and Nurgle and has slain many of their forces for she hates their ugly foul forms and rabid minds - these are the antithesis to what she holds in regard.  She has allied with Clan Skryre and Verminus but will not tolerate Clan Pestilence and has slain Pit Abominations that her own allies have brought to battle out of disgust.

In the old days, there were many powers of Chaos but only 4 of the most powerful ones were discussed in the ancient Realm of Chaos volumes.  Despite these 4 (well 3 for now + Horned Rat) being the predominant powers there is plenty of room in the Realm of Chaos for many other powers to exist.  Even Deamon Princess' can rise to the level of a minor Chaos God and grant boons and gifts to their followers.  

Anyways, there may be gaming advantages for me to give Vallenfyre a Mark but I won't do it - it is not her character - she will  not bend a knee to anyone.  I will have to overcome any "disadvantages" that making such decisions bring but to me it is worth it.

 

 

 

[Galas]

Personally I like Chaos Undivided. To me, it represent the more "paganism" and "barbarian" adoration of Chaos. Those tribes of Northsmen, Kurgan and the like that live their lives as normal men, but just threat Chaos as the mens of the South threat Sigmar, Morr, Ulfric, etc... Chaos in the North is a force of Nature, it has namy faces and many names, and just like in Greece people existed that put a God above others (Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Hades, etc...) they still respect and prayed to the others whenever it was needed. Praying to Khorne (Also Known as Karnath, Akhar, Kjorn, Khorgar, etc...) before a bloody affair (A battle? A birth? Calling for strenght to the new member of the tribe) Praying to Nurgle when you get sick, etc...

I always like more that version of Chaos, a more symphatetic one, that the Mono-God Fanatical one of "We are bad. All the time!"

I suppose, in Sigmar, they are abandoning that approach, because generic-chaos is less "characteristic" that Mono-God Chaos. But my blacky knights, warriors and barbarians are here to stay!

[Killax]

14 hours ago, Travis Baumann said:

I have to disagree with this.  This is an army not an  individual character.  I don't want to see class as such. Just the leaders/command section is more than a complete Roleplaying party that would be fleshed out with a host of classes to be effective.  My army would have a priest/wizard/cleric selection in addition to heavy melee hitters and hopefully something like a ranger/scout/archer as well as potentially a thief/assassin in order to handle the things that a good group would do to diversify and prosper.  This doesn't even take into account the varied "classes" that would make up the predominant units and certainly does not touch on large monsters or war machines to supplement their strength.

I also disagree with your assessment of multiple powers of Chaos interacting.  My army is based around a Demon Princess - Vallenfyre.  She has been heavily courted by both Slaanesh and Tzeentch but has staved off both of their attempts to put their Mark on her and claim her power and retinue for their own.  Slaanesh has granted her a unit of Deamonetts as body guard and escorts.  Tzeentch has sent several of his mighty Chaos Lords and Sorcerers as well as a unit of Flamers and Skyfires to aid her in her ambitions (but of course he has his own intentions there).  Defiled Beastmen have flocked to her presence as have a host of Chaos Warriors that come from Chaos Undivided as they have witnessed her unearthly beauty as well as her unholy wrath and have pledged themselves to her and her aspirations to rise - they worship HER.  She despises Khorne and Nurgle and has slain many of their forces for she hates their ugly foul forms and rabid minds - these are the antithesis to what she holds in regard.  She has allied with Clan Skryre and Verminus but will not tolerate Clan Pestilence and has slain Pit Abominations that her own allies have brought to battle out of disgust.

In the old days, there were many powers of Chaos but only 4 of the most powerful ones were discussed in the ancient Realm of Chaos volumes.  Despite these 4 (well 3 for now + Horned Rat) being the predominant powers there is plenty of room in the Realm of Chaos for many other powers to exist.  Even Deamon Princess' can rise to the level of a minor Chaos God and grant boons and gifts to their followers.  

Anyways, there may be gaming advantages for me to give Vallenfyre a Mark but I won't do it - it is not her character - she will  not bend a knee to anyone.  I will have to overcome any "disadvantages" that making such decisions bring but to me it is worth it.

While I see you opening the post with dissagreement, the words that follow actually fit what I mean with building up Narrative.
It's great that you decided to go deep into an Undivided Daemon Prince. Not only is it logical to not give her a Mark, it fits the Narrative you attached to that character.
Since Abaddon and Archaon where designed by GW we saw that mixing Marks in one force became an option. This option is totally cool to me if we are talking about powerful characters who have the power to influence others like this. Because this, 'a greater Chaos good' is what the character of said factions can become.

Everchosen/Slaves to Darkness in essence is exaclty what The Black Legion is doing, uniting Chaos. This works well for them but at the same time also excludes them from being a favourite of Warrior for any specific God. Instead the Chaos Gods are drawn to that character for his abilities. When that character however decides he's 'better' as any of the Chaos Gods or wants to become one himself (such as happened with Slaanesh's succesful attempt and Be'lakor's unsuccesful attempt) this too adds to narrative but will have larger consequences.

With this in mind, an army does have a single character. The one you choose have the character of following a Daemon Princess instead of vastly more powerful gods. Character builds up armies meaning that within Khorne you will see a vast mayority of Warriors, even their Priests have interests in killing others. Likewise within Tzeentch we too see a vast mayority of Wizards and Magic Users.
Everchosen/Slaves to Darkness draws it's power from being the 'Swiss knife' which is cool but ultimately also means that they will not have the same powerful Warriors as found in Khorne or Sorcerers as found in Tzeentch. This because narrative tells you that the more fanatical one becomes, the more he or she can wield the power of his or her gods.

Lore from the old days depicted this in the exact same way. Daemon Princes and Princess are just a mere speck compaired to the 4 Gods of Chaos. In order to even remotely come close to their powers you'd have to destroy worlds. Something that gave birth to Slaanesh, the Horned God and put Archaon in such a powerful position that he too now can be considerd Godly. Following a particular God has nothing to with bending the knee. Power in the Warhammer universes is gained with preforming acts of interest, not based on ammounts of followers or simply spending time or surviving for years.
 

[Menkeroth]

On 12.05.2017 at 1:08 PM, Killax said:

Lore from the old days depicted this in the exact same way. Daemon Princes and Princess are just a mere speck compaired to the 4 Gods of Chaos. In order to even remotely come close to their powers you'd have to destroy worlds. Something that gave birth to Slaanesh, the Horned God and put Archaon in such a powerful position that he too now can be considerd Godly. Following a particular God has nothing to with bending the knee. Power in the Warhammer universes is gained with preforming acts of interest, not based on ammounts of followers or simply spending time or surviving for years.

 

True. We can see this in Ghyran - Nurgle was at his best when he controlled almost everything,but now he retreats with losing his domain in that realm. Likewise, Tzeentch is stronger now with all his newborn cults and such stuff.