So which units are duds ruleswise? You must define dud and then go positive

[Nin Win]

So in a given faction there might be units that don't strike your fancy.  If you are a competitive player then perhaps they cost too much.  If you like cool crazy things to happen then maybe they are too plain.  So which units are your duds?  And why?  Please do not post a unit you consider a dud unless you state your criteria.  Then try to go positive with it.  Like what would really work for you as a change or a possible replacement unit?

For me, it's Gors, but only out of jealously of the Tzaangors and their 2 wounds.  I played WHFB when all Gors (well Chaos Beastmen as they didn't call them Gors then) had 2 wounds.  So my reason is entirely nostalgia.  I liked the beastmen as the 2 wound basic troop army.  My wallet will be in serious trouble if nurgle beastmen get the Tzaangor treatment as 2 wound Pestigors with a new plastic kit.  One of the things I really enjoyed borrow a friend's stormcast is everything being multiwound and would love to see the Tzaangor approach to gors extended to the other Chaos gods.

[Galas]

Chaos Warhounds.

They do the job well enough, but his Warscrolls has so little content that is like... "Yeah, they are dogs, what you expect"

Maybe some sinergies... some a little crazy rules like "bloodlust", having +1 to wound against enemies that have receive a wound or more, etc... but well. They are my doggys and I love them for what they are  

[bennyp]

I'd like ogors to receive a little buff in their rules to match the feel of the models.

As large infantry, I think a charging ogor should be able to inflict a mortal wound on a unit (so basically impact hit) 

Other than that, I love them 

[swarmofseals]

Dud - a warscroll that is grossly overpointed for no apparent reason or has a battlefield role that doesn't actually function effectively in the game.

 

Death: Honestly there aren't that many units in GA: Death that seem like total duds to me because in general the alliance is pretty mediocre and gets a lot of its power from the allegiance ability, banners etc. The only thing that really springs to mind are Black Knights, which just plain suck. They are terrible on offense and terrible on defense compared to other options. On the positive the models are pretty good though! Aside from that I'm disappointed in Tomb Scorpions and Sepulchral Stalkers but I wouldn't call them outright duds. They are fine for casual play. That said, they both have interesting uses that just don't happen to be particularly viable right now. Both units are great for getting in the opponent's backfield, but with so little crewed artillery in the game, no ability to stop shooters by engaging them in melee, and no ability to reliably score objectives both of these units don't really function in their intended role. They look great though, and I wish I had more excuses to use them.

Sylvaneth: 100% revenants without question. Tree-revenants are SO BAD. At 20 points per wound with a 5+ save they'd need to be extraordinarily mobile or hit like hit lighting to be useful, but they aren't on either count. They have OK attacks but it's nothing to write home about. At 5" move they are actually slow compared to Dryads. Their teleportation ability is nice, but it's not that much better than the usual Sylvaneth movement shenanigans and is less useful for the same reasons described above with the Tomb Scorpions and Sepulchral Stalkers. For these to be interesting they'd need to have 2 wounds or cost 60 points for 5. Even then they wouldn't be that great. They'd be the same points per model as Dryads, but with better offense and worse defense. Spite Revenants are even worse. Their offense is bad, their defense is bad, and they are 20 points per wound. All they do are some minor bravery damage... but wouldn't it just be better to spend the 100 points on something that will actually just cause more wounds to the enemy and thus cause them to battleshock harder? It's painful because the models are so good (the only positive thing I can say) and Sylvaneth have so few unit choices to begin with. 

[Thor]

Lord kloak in matched play. 

Knight-questor 

[FRoper]

black knights,

why: no offensive ability, defence they are alright but even with banners they die to quickly.

[Robzilla]

For me it's the ogre ironblaster. 

Its... OK damage output for a giant-mother-of-all cannons. 

But with only a 50% chance of hitting (if you target the small elite units it looks like it wants to target). Wish it was a bit more accurate with  lower basic, but scaling damage. 

[Nin Win]

4 hours ago, Galas said:

Chaos Warhounds.

Maybe some sinergies... some a little crazy rules like "bloodlust", having +1 to wound against enemies that have receive a wound or more, etc... but well. They are my doggys and I love them for what they are  

In the novels they tend to be the first wave that hits the enemy and in a few places you kind of get this sense that it's important to dispatch them and reform your lines before the real threat arrives, so I think a rule where another unit charging into combat with something already fighting the dogs could take advantage of the distraction and get some sort of boost.

3 hours ago, bennyp said:

I'd like ogors to receive a little buff in their rules to match the feel of the models.

As large infantry, I think a charging ogor should be able to inflict a mortal wound on a unit (so basically impact hit) 

Other than that, I love them 

As a big fan of monstrous large infantry and multi wound models I love the idea of the charge to do a mortal wound mechanic.  Really gets the stomping and crushing impact effect across.

Politically, I'm pro ogor and pro troggoth.

[tokek]

Saurus Knights. Whether in narrative or matched play they are just too slow, too fragile and too disappointing in the unlikely event that they actually do get there and make the charge. Pretty much over-costed in points but that only scratches the surface of the problem which is that the long slow plod across the table of a unit that only survives if the opponent ignores them culminates in a charge into combat where they then don't really do anything of note.

Oh and their mounts don't look as good as the Cold Ones available elsewhere. *sigh*

You can buff them but it just feels like putting a touch of garnish on an under-cooked tepid meal.

[Ratamaplata]

Skaven slaves... worse versions of clanrats. Pointless.

[Captain Marius]

Sayl the Faithless - in my opinion simply an ill thought out set of rules that are so good for what they offer that he becomes an auto-include for many Chaos players.

I would like to see his points increased substantially ala Tomb Kings, or make it mandatory to take Nightmaw alongside him at least.

On the other hand hes fun in narrative play because you're not trying to wring every last drop of optimal synergisation out of your force.

See also the Thundertusk's 6 mortal wounds on a 2+ missile attack. Its just too reliable a trick to pass up - in this case Id like to see it reduced to 3+ to hit... and maybe d6 MWs from the get go!

On units with objectively rubbish rules (thats you, Chaos hounds and marauders), i would never give them a look in in matched, but ive found them perfectly fine in narrative play!

[Dotification]

Greenskins as a whole (only exception is prolly the Warboss on Wyvern.)

[Squirrelmaster]

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned the Black Coach yet.

Unless you have a simply ridiculous number of wizards in your army, it's unlikely that you'll get even one level out of Evocation of Death in a regular game. Take that away, and you have the hitting power of a single Cairn Wraith (plus a couple of steeds that don't amount to much), slightly more survivability than a Cairn Wraith (7 wounds instead of 4, but without the ethereal rule), better speed but not flying, and twice the cost of a CW.

They could drop it to 2/3 of the current cost and I'd still consider it dubious value for points.

Or they could just give it all five levels right from the start, and I think it would be about right, points-wise.

Also, the model's looking pretty dated.

I'd love to see it re-done as a plastic kit, flying through the air with ethereal flames and spirits around it, give it some extra attacks of some description (fluff wise it's supposed to drain the life-force of nearby enemies just by being there, not just rely on the guy on top swinging his scythe around). If it's going to have stacking buffs, I'd like to see it get some of them from being near enemy wizards and killing enemy models, not just from your own guys. It needs to do more for its points, or be cheaper, and I'd really like to see it do something different from just having generic combat stats.

[someone2040]

Dragon Ogors have nothing Ogor about them, they don't fit the fantasy of the Dragon-Ogor hybrid as all the attacks from the Ogor on top are a bit lacklustre. I'd like to see an increase in damage by 1 on all of the Ogor weapons from the Dragon Ogor scroll. This makes them thematically feel a lot more Ogor-like (As even Bulls with their basic weapons deal 2 damage each). In fact, pretty sure they're the only Ogors in the game (Whether the Warshrine, Gutbuster, Beastclaw, Chaos Ogre, etc) that only deal 1 damage base.

 

[erasercrumbs]

Moonclan Grots with bows.  The hooded goblin wielding a shortbow has long been a staple of Warhammer fiction, even the old 1992 Warhammer Fantasy Regiments boxed set included it.  It's right up there with Slambo, so far as I'm concerned.  But now, with the way their rules are worded, Moonclan archers are essentially worthless in comparison with their melee-oriented peers.  If their special rules were worded slightly differently, they could be quite useful, but as is, there really is no reason to take them.  

 

Snotlings also seem like a wasted opportunity to make a really fun unit.  Even the Pump Wagon feels rather prosaic, even though it's essentially a ramshackle pile of wood and spikes being piloted by rabid squirrel monkeys.  

 

Oh, and then there's the Rotbringers Sorcerer.  I guess it's unfair to call it a dud, because I've never actually used it.  It's so obviously inferior to a Chaos Sorcerer with a Mark of Nurgle that I've never bothered.

 

That said, one of my favorite aspects of Age of Sigmar is that there aren't really any junk units.  Even the ones I listed are  far from worthless.  There is no AoS equivalent of the Pyrovore, and that's pretty commendable.

[Popisdead]

I would say Glade Guard.  Waywatchers outperform them, even the hero does, and if you wanted a big alpha strike unit then loading up on them (60) can work but then you have a lot of archers for the rest of the game who are meh.

 

[Soup Dragon]

The Squig Gobba from Forge World Monstrous Arcanum has to be strong contender - average 3" move, 5 wounds, 6+ save and 60 points. Then averages 2 shots with average 14" range, 5+ to hit, 4+ to wound, no rend. So does an average of 0.66 damage to a unit with NO save. Oh and did I mention it cannot shoot if it moves?

The only saving grace is that it is such a cool looking model.

[Nin Win]

On 4/23/2017 at 6:58 PM, someone2040 said:

Dragon Ogors have nothing Ogor about them, they don't fit the fantasy of the Dragon-Ogor hybrid as all the attacks from the Ogor on top are a bit lacklustre. 

Back in the 90s, the Dragon Ogor idea is what got me into warhammer fantasy.  It was a dragon AND an ogre!  Combined!  Nothing could be cooler than that for a teenager just discovering fantasy and sci-fi miniatures.  The fimirs in Heroquest were also pretty mind blowing.  Never saw anything like that before.  It was also the first place I ever came across the term "chaos warrior."

17 hours ago, erasercrumbs said:

Oh, and then there's the Rotbringers Sorcerer.  I guess it's unfair to call it a dud, because I've never actually used it.  It's so obviously inferior to a Chaos Sorcerer with a Mark of Nurgle that I've never bothered.

That said, one of my favorite aspects of Age of Sigmar is that there aren't really any junk units.  Even the ones I listed are  far from worthless.  There is no AoS equivalent of the Pyrovore, and that's pretty commendable.

It is sort of strange that they made basically the same thing (mortal sorcerer of nurgle) have different rules like that.  It'd be cool if they were closer but different in ability so you wouldn't find it to be an obvious choice.

From what I've been seeing that outside of truly competitive play, people take a true variety of stuff and there really isn't the equivalent of the sheer number of 40k shelf sitters in the current edition of that game.

 

3 hours ago, Soup Dragon said:

The Squig Gobba from Forge World [...]

The only saving grace is that it is such a cool looking model.

A very common feature of the best "duds"

It's been interesting to read the very different approaches that lead people to their assessment.  As someone who doesn't use points, a model with weaker rules is more about whether or not they provide the person fielding them with a good game experience.  And sometimes a weaker unit will just feel less cool than the model would otherwise suggest.  Whereas other people more interested in matched play are just as disappointed by the same sort of units but for other reasons.