Let's chat Kharadron Overlords

[Jack Shrapnel]

thanks! but yeah, I can't tell if it's any good either (I'm guessing it's not)

[stratigo]

12 hours ago, Jack Shrapnel said:

thanks! but yeah, I can't tell if it's any good either (I'm guessing it's not)

sadly.... nope. Gunhaulers aren't worth it at all. Navigators are a mostly poor choice, though I can see what you're trying to do, they just don't do it well. 100 points is not worth a dispell and slightly more movement. Navigators need to drop in price before they'd be worth taking.

 

 

[stato]

5 hours ago, stratigo said:

sadly.... nope. Gunhaulers aren't worth it at all. Navigators are a mostly poor choice, though I can see what you're trying to do, they just don't do it well. 100 points is not worth a dispell and slightly more movement. Navigators need to drop in price before they'd be worth taking.

Id disagree with it just being a straight up no.  Im very much of the mind that with AoS just looking at a unit solitary is pointless (not a Pun), you need to look at the whole force and its tactics and the strengths and weaknesses in that.  Look at recent tournament results, almost all UK ones have been podium'd by lists full of units people say aren't worth it.

At my first tournament with my Kharadron 2 of the games i could have swapped in a gunhauler in place of other units and it would have still been a very effective force, probably more so infact. Moving 1/3 of wounds off a frigate or Ironclad could really let it survive that extra turn, and if it can do that in most games it will survive the rest of the battle as it can easilly move off leaving your embarked troops behind to deal with combat. If the gunhauler survived as well (unlikely) then your opponent could be really in trouble if both boats head off to grab objectives. Id like it to be 20pt cheaper though as it'd fit my current list easier 

Navigators are harder to place for sure. Dis-spell is good but to do that you need to be outside a boat and within 18" range of the caster.  If your within 18" you will be getting hit directly by Arcane bolts or worse, so if you fail the dis-spell you are in trouble. Most of what you want to stop is magic buffs to units so to do that requires you to be aggressive with your movement turn 1 to leave you within 18" turn 2, that of course leaves you at risk of a nasty charge to all your boats.  The navigators do give a more reliable movement buff but you can get better from Ziflin skyport, they can also hamper enemy movement.  Perhaps they could be tactical that way? against a flyer heavy opponent you could try to ground them and then jump in the ships and retreat back, out of charge range the following turn.  It could be an interesting trick to keep doing and out manouver what should have been a faster force.

Certainly not a straight up pick I accept, but with a bit of alternative tactics you could have great fun with a list like that.  It does risk failing quickly if you have a bit of bad luck or make a wrong decision, but the most fun lists often do 

[stratigo]

2 minutes ago, stato said:

Id disagree with it just being a straight up no.  Im very much of the mind that with AoS just looking at a unit solitary is pointless (not a Pun), you need to look at the whole force and its tactics and the strengths and weaknesses in that.  Look at recent tournament results, almost all UK ones have been podium'd by lists full of units people say aren't worth it.

At my first tournament with my Kharadron 2 of the games i could have swapped in a gunhauler in place of other units and it would have still been a very effective force, probably more so infact. Moving 1/3 of wounds off a frigate or Ironclad could really let it survive that extra turn, and if it can do that in most games it will survive the rest of the battle as it can easilly move off leaving your embarked troops behind to deal with combat. If the gunhauler survived as well (unlikely) then your opponent could be really in trouble if both boats head off to grab objectives. Id like it to be 20pt cheaper though as it'd fit my current list easier 

Navigators are harder to place for sure. Dis-spell is good but to do that you need to be outside a boat and within 18" range of the caster.  If your within 18" you will be getting hit directly by Arcane bolts or worse, so if you fail the dis-spell you are in trouble. Most of what you want to stop is magic buffs to units so to do that requires you to be aggressive with your movement turn 1 to leave you within 18" turn 2, that of course leaves you at risk of a nasty charge to all your boats.  The navigators do give a more reliable movement buff but you can get better from Ziflin skyport, they can also hamper enemy movement.  Perhaps they could be tactical that way? against a flyer heavy opponent you could try to ground them and then jump in the ships and retreat back, out of charge range the following turn.  It could be an interesting trick to keep doing and out manouver what should have been a faster force.

Certainly not a straight up pick I accept, but with a bit of alternative tactics you could have great fun with a list like that.  It does risk failing quickly if you have a bit of bad luck or make a wrong decision, but the most fun lists often do 

luckily kharadrons only have 12 units to look at, so seeing the combos isn't that hard :P.

 

The gunhauler is a mobile cannon that can catch a wound for a more important unit 1/3 of the time. That's about it. For 220 points. GW has it through their mind, for whatever reason, cannons are stupid amazing and need to be expensive else you'd see nothing but. They aren't of course, and the gunhauler is 220 points I struggle to find worth... literally anything else in the army that costs equivalent. You tell me where the gunhauler would shine, give me a good and realistic match up,

[stato]

13 minutes ago, stratigo said:

The gunhauler is a mobile cannon that can catch a wound for a more important unit 1/3 of the time. That's about it. For 220 points. GW has it through their mind, for whatever reason, cannons are stupid amazing and need to be expensive else you'd see nothing but. They aren't of course, and the gunhauler is 220 points I struggle to find worth... literally anything else in the army that costs equivalent. You tell me where the gunhauler would shine, give me a good and realistic match up,

'The gunhauler is a mobile cannon' with a 36" threat range! (now the cannon has been FAQ to 24" range [edit: sorry thats just the drill cannon, but its still 36" if you have the run and shoot Amendment), yeah it might be unreliable, but 50% of the time it wont be, and that is mighty scary to a lot of opponents 

I have 200pts of Prosecutor allies in my force, i use them as a distraction.  In my last game against a very good Tzeentch player they did nothing other than distract 10 pink horrors. If id had a gunhauler instead my frigate would have not died opponent turn 1 (he only just got it!) and id have had the range to threaten (and probably kill) his Gaunt summoner. If id done that then after id not have lost 16 of 30 company to its spell and he would also not have had that last hero to score on Duality of death as id already taken off his Lord of Change with skyhooks (who were out of range of the summoner).  

Obviously im already running at a disadvantage using Prosecutors instead of Skywardens (same points) but my point is you can play with these units and not be as disadvantaged as you might think.

[stratigo]

Sure you can, but Kharadrons aren't a huge powerhouse factions tearing up the meta. The GHB2017 and subsequent FAQ nerfed like 50 percent of the roster. I'm not sure it's a super great idea to be weakening the list of a faction that is already in a sore spot these days. Unless you're just playing against goof ball lists, even a competently built fun list is gonna be tough to beat, much less an actual competitive list, for Kharadrons. There isn't much room for error.

[stato]

3 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Sure you can, but Kharadrons aren't a huge powerhouse factions tearing up the meta. The GHB2017 and subsequent FAQ nerfed like 50 percent of the roster. I'm not sure it's a super great idea to be weakening the list of a faction that is already in a sore spot these days. Unless you're just playing against goof ball lists, even a competently built fun list is gonna be tough to beat, much less an actual competitive list, for Kharadrons. There isn't much room for error.

The Tzeentch player I was against has won 3 local tournaments and a fairly one in Scotland.  Sure a shooty list is a Tzeentch weakness but he has beaten better lists than mine and yet still I had him on the ropes right until i fluffed my roll to kill the only hero he had in a position to get the win.  We both agreed that with better units in place of my prosecutors Id have probably won, i think the gunhauler would have done that.

At the Scottish tournament the list i lost against was Kharadrons (who had less drops so i was losing from the start), the other 2 were not really a significant threat to the list (other than my reckless charging when i shouldn't, part of the fun though right) and both games id have been stronger with a gunhauler than the prosecutors i have.

I honestly dont think Kharardons are weak, the nerf was hard for people already experienced with them but for me its opened up the book so much, allowing more varied and still strong lists.   Playing Fyreslayers tonight so maybe ill change my mind later, ill let you all know 

[Qaz]

Gunhauler should be more like gyrobomber in my opinion. It's role is too niche. It'd be nice if it acts more like an escort ship that absorbs charges and run interference. For that, It just needs to be cheaper (don't mind if it takes durability hit).

Change to something like 4-6 wounds for 120-160 points. 

[TheNotebookGM]

15 minutes ago, Qaz said:

Gunhauler should be more like gyrobomber in my opinion. It's role is too niche. It'd be nice if it acts more like an escort ship that absorbs charges and run interference. For that, It just needs to be cheaper (don't mind if it takes durability hit).

Change to something like 4-6 wounds for 120-160 points. 

You sound like a man in need of a Skycutter!

[FractalRain]

Just to chime in to the debate, I think the changes to Thunderers, the increased point cost of the Khemist, the change to his ability, and reduction of wounds for drill cannons all hurt the Kharadron lists.   I think the simple change to the Khemist ability solved the over-buffed Thunderer issue by itself and didn't require such drastic changes.  I'm still trying the Thunderers out to form an opinion, but the biggest hurt was taking our longer range - across the board really.   It hurts more because we have limited unit selection to begin with.

I have not played with a Gunhauler or Ironclad yet (so no idea if the Ironclad is worth the cost), but feel the ships are greatly overpriced for what they do.  I generally run 1 frigate in all my lists for the mobility.  That is the only reason to take it, as I hit with a cannon 50% of the time and wound 50% = 25% effectiveness statistically, and the bombs only work 50% of the time.  So, all I really have is a 280 pt ship which can carry guys and rarely does anything else.  I do use it to block or distract, but even then, it generally has been going down in 1-2 turns.  The mobility is greatly needed, but it is getting harder to swallow that 280 pts for something which I feel has not lived up to the cost. I just started using Endrinriggers and the Frigate is nice to drive them along as well, but I just think we'd get more use out of the ships if they cost even a little less. 

[polarbear]

27 minutes ago, Qaz said:

Gunhauler should be more like gyrobomber in my opinion. It's role is too niche. It'd be nice if it acts more like an escort ship that absorbs charges and run interference. For that, It just needs to be cheaper (don't mind if it takes durability hit).

Change to something like 4-6 wounds for 120-160 points. 

I think it was Tom from Warhammer Weekly who had a couple great ideas about the Gunhauler, namely making some synergy with the other Grundstok unit, the Thunderers, perhaps letting it transport 5 of them, and having offensive bombs rather than defensive. Just going from memory so sorry Tom if I am misattributing you here.

[stato]

34 minutes ago, FractalRain said:

I generally run 1 frigate in all my lists for the mobility.  That is the only reason to take it, as I hit with a cannon 50% of the time and wound 50% = 25% effectiveness statistically, and the bombs only work 50% of the time.  So, all I really have is a 280 pt ship which can carry guys and rarely does anything else.  I do use it to block or distract, but even then, it generally has been going down in 1-2 turns.  The mobility is greatly needed, but it is getting harder to swallow that 280 pts for something which I feel has not lived up to the cost. I just started using Endrinriggers and the Frigate is nice to drive them along as well, but I just think we'd get more use out of the ships if they cost even a little less. 

Yep the frigate is not an active contributer but its quick, tough-ish so opponents generally like to attack it, which is great as it takes the heat at lot of the time.  Ive seen a list with big blocks of company and loads of balloons but no boats, worked amazing in some scenarios, then it hit duality of death and the 5 wound heros got taken off before they could score.  A boat is a behmoth so can score and also keeps your hero alive if he needs to hide from shooting until you have taken it out.  Again, its at risk of being dismissed because it doesnt look effective but its actually critical to a list if you want an all round army.  The fact you can load everything onto it for deployment and get the choice on first turn more often than not is also huge for a force than can sit back if it wants to or pick off key heros on a synergy heavy force.

[TheNotebookGM]

Gunhauler would even be more useful if you could clip the balloons to it, and/or maybe if you got a +1 to grapnel rolls targeting a gunhauler.

[Qaz]

1 hour ago, polarbear said:

I think it was Tom from Warhammer Weekly who had a couple great ideas about the Gunhauler, namely making some synergy with the other Grundstok unit, the Thunderers, perhaps letting it transport 5 of them, and having offensive bombs rather than defensive. Just going from memory so sorry Tom if I am misattributing you here.

Sounds like a good idea. Would love to find a use for gunhaulers in competitive play. Grundstoks just need to find their own space within KO. 

[FractalRain]

4 hours ago, stato said:

Yep the frigate is not an active contributer but its quick, tough-ish so opponents generally like to attack it, which is great as it takes the heat at lot of the time.  Ive seen a list with big blocks of company and loads of balloons but no boats, worked amazing in some scenarios, then it hit duality of death and the 5 wound heros got taken off before they could score.  A boat is a behmoth so can score and also keeps your hero alive if he needs to hide from shooting until you have taken it out.  Again, its at risk of being dismissed because it doesnt look effective but its actually critical to a list if you want an all round army.  The fact you can load everything onto it for deployment and get the choice on first turn more often than not is also huge for a force than can sit back if it wants to or pick off key heros on a synergy heavy force.

Thanks for pointing that out stato!  I have not played that scenario yet - my local crew has been busy with Path to Glory - so I didn't realize how pivotal the frigate or other behemoths could be for that scenario.  Loading up units on it is very nice - but it can be a tricky balance if the enemy is fast and can effectively surround and take-out the frigate.  I've lost a unit and hero that way and now try to play more cautiously.  Can be tricky with all the deployment/move shenanigans out there now! 

[stratigo]

9 hours ago, stato said:

The Tzeentch player I was against has won 3 local tournaments and a fairly one in Scotland.  Sure a shooty list is a Tzeentch weakness but he has beaten better lists than mine and yet still I had him on the ropes right until i fluffed my roll to kill the only hero he had in a position to get the win.  We both agreed that with better units in place of my prosecutors Id have probably won, i think the gunhauler would have done that.

At the Scottish tournament the list i lost against was Kharadrons (who had less drops so i was losing from the start), the other 2 were not really a significant threat to the list (other than my reckless charging when i shouldn't, part of the fun though right) and both games id have been stronger with a gunhauler than the prosecutors i have.

I honestly dont think Kharardons are weak, the nerf was hard for people already experienced with them but for me its opened up the book so much, allowing more varied and still strong lists.   Playing Fyreslayers tonight so maybe ill change my mind later, ill let you all know 

Considering I haven't started playing kharadrons til after the GHB dropped, I didn't come in with preconceived notions of how to build. I mean beyond "lul 20 thunderers with mortars and 3 aether khemists". That's not the kind of list I enjoy running anyways.

The gunhauler fails to make the cut categorically. I want more damage. I guarantee those prosecuters were pulling more weight than a gunhauler could.

 

50 minutes ago, FractalRain said:

Thanks for pointing that out stato!  I have not played that scenario yet - my local crew has been busy with Path to Glory - so I didn't realize how pivotal the frigate or other behemoths could be for that scenario.  Loading up units on it is very nice - but it can be a tricky balance if the enemy is fast and can effectively surround and take-out the frigate.  I've lost a unit and hero that way and now try to play more cautiously.  Can be tricky with all the deployment/move shenanigans out there now! 

Frigates are nice for what they do. Although you don't want to go overboard with them.

 

I do generally like the ironclad better, but I favor the Ziflin drop in. It's why I picked up the army and so most of my lists revolve around it.

[Drofnum]

How do you have 200 pts of Judicators as allies?  They are 160 pts for 5 so maybe you mean 160 pts and just rounded up.  If thats the case then a gunhauler only maybe doing as well as them shows it needs a point reduction.  I also think you could swap in a unit(almost 2 for the same cost) of Company or either of the skyriggers and get more out of it than you get from the gunhauler.

[Drofnum]

6 hours ago, FractalRain said:

Just to chime in to the debate, I think the changes to Thunderers, the increased point cost of the Khemist, the change to his ability, and reduction of wounds for drill cannons all hurt the Kharadron lists.   I think the simple change to the Khemist ability solved the over-buffed Thunderer issue by itself and didn't require such drastic changes.  I'm still trying the Thunderers out to form an opinion, but the biggest hurt was taking our longer range - across the board really.   It hurts more because we have limited unit selection to begin with.

I have not played with a Gunhauler or Ironclad yet (so no idea if the Ironclad is worth the cost), but feel the ships are greatly overpriced for what they do.  I generally run 1 frigate in all my lists for the mobility.  That is the only reason to take it, as I hit with a cannon 50% of the time and wound 50% = 25% effectiveness statistically, and the bombs only work 50% of the time.  So, all I really have is a 280 pt ship which can carry guys and rarely does anything else.  I do use it to block or distract, but even then, it generally has been going down in 1-2 turns.  The mobility is greatly needed, but it is getting harder to swallow that 280 pts for something which I feel has not lived up to the cost. I just started using Endrinriggers and the Frigate is nice to drive them along as well, but I just think we'd get more use out of the ships if they cost even a little less. 

I use the Ironclad in my 1500-2000 point games and its solid for the cost.  I do think all the ships could come down a bit but they arent super overcosted for what they do and I think GW put them on the higher side as they didnt know how the transport aspect would affect the game I imagine.

 

The volley cannon is quite good on the Ironclad, not nearly as swingy as the Sky Cannon is for the other ships.

[Karl]

2 hours ago, Drofnum said:

How do you have 200 pts of Judicators as allies?  They are 160 pts for 5 so maybe you mean 160 pts and just rounded up.  If thats the case then a gunhauler only maybe doing as well as them shows it needs a point reduction.  I also think you could swap in a unit(almost 2 for the same cost) of Company or either of the skyriggers and get more out of it than you get from the gunhauler.

He said prosecutors 

[Drofnum]

30 minutes ago, Karl said:

He said prosecutors 

Just ignore me.

[Thomas Lyons]

15 hours ago, polarbear said:

I think it was Tom from Warhammer Weekly who had a couple great ideas about the Gunhauler, namely making some synergy with the other Grundstok unit, the Thunderers, perhaps letting it transport 5 of them, and having offensive bombs rather than defensive. Just going from memory so sorry Tom if I am misattributing you here.

Yes, my idea was to give that ship a carry capacity of 0 based and an overload of 5, so every normal model reduced its movement by 1".  This would let the Gunhauler serve as a chariot for heroes or carry a minimum size Grundstok Thunderer unit (which makes sense given their shared background lore) and, more importantly, tote around any number of balloon troops so that we have an alternate option to the two more expensive ships.  I think that Gunhauler would probably be worth its 220 points.  Maybe.  

That said, I went on @MC1gamer's channel this evening and did an Unlocking Kharadron Overlords show with him.  The basic format was looking at three very different 2k sized lists.  One of them was even a heavy ship list...that had a proper place for a Gunhauler!  I'd encourage you all to check it out if you're interested.

 

 

[polarbear]

11 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

That said, I went on @MC1gamer's channel this evening and did an Unlocking Kharadron Overlords show with him.  The basic format was looking at three very different 2k sized lists.  One of them was even a heavy ship list...that had a proper place for a Gunhauler!  I'd encourage you all to check it out if you're interested.

Great video. You mentioned at the end you like painting the KO but didn't get a chance to say why, which I'm curious about. I was initially scared off the army because of how detailed the models were, which I usually don't like, but now that I have them, I surprisingly love painting these little guys.

[Drofnum]

What armies do you guys find are the toughest to play against?  The biggest one i can think of is stardrake with mirrorshield.

 

In my local area I've played quite a few different armies and lists, some more competitive than others, and I honestly cant remember having a single close game.  Its almost always me blowing away the other guy and i'm positive i'm not some sort of tactical genius!  So I figure i must just be getting good matchups or maybe my opponents are unsure of how to beat me, my Khemist almost never gets targeted so that is definitely one issue with people playing against me since he basically doubles my damage output.  

 

Anyway, just curious what you guys find to be hard matchups so maybe I can try and seek that out a little more.  

[Jack Shrapnel]

really enjoyed this video... thanks so much for sharing!

[Jack Shrapnel]

After watching that great video, I'm looking at the following adjustments:

Skyport - Barak-Zilfin - additional footnote - there's no trading with some people

Heroes:

Khemist - earbuster 

Endrinmaster - general - Fleetmaster

Units:

10 arkanauts - 3 light skyhooks

10 arkanauts - 3 light skyhooks

10 arkanauts - 3 light skyhooks

9 Endriggers - 2 grapnels

War Marchines:

Ironclad - Aetherspheric Endrins - Aethermatic Volley Cannon

Frigate - Heavy Skycannon

Gunhauler- Skycannon

1940 points - 3 drops

20 arkanauts, the riggers and the characters ride the ironclad in from the skies.  When everyone disembarks the Endrinmaster stays on board for ironclad healing abilities and to keep the general safe (ish).   Arks run interference for the ironclad in two lines, with the endriggers getting buffed by the chemists for their saws, and hope the grapnel hits! Fleetmaster allows the frigate with 10 arkanauts to redeploy to do a bit of shenanigans turn one.  Gunhauler takes wounds for it's bigger brothers and adds another cannon to the mix.