Lets chat: Beastclaw Raiders

[Niltzsche]

5 hours ago, AthlorianStoners said:

Very much agree with this, potentially a unit of smaller Hunter-like Ogors who serve as scouts maybe?

This! The Hunter concept is to great to keep it limited to just one figure.

I also would like to see something like Rhinox riders as middleground between mournfang and the biggies while we're wishing.

[Lucentia]

I occasionally muse on how I'd fix up a theoretical BCR update, something like:

-The allegiance ability is a little uninspiring (I would say it matches the efficacy of, say, Bonesplitterz and the GHB17 abilities, but pales in comparison to the more impressive traits) I'd like to see the everwinter table changed to something which escalates as the battle round advances, representing the storm rolling in.   So, say, rounds 1 and 2 is the same as the table at present, rounds 3/4 is re-roll 1s and 2s on saves, +5" movement or mortal wounds on 4+, and turn 5+ is re-roll all saves, +7" movement or mortal wounds on 2+, or something like that.

-Make Huskards priests and add an everwinter prayer list, the Huskard Torr is basically a priest anyway in all but keyword, one of the prayers should probably be a To Hit buff in some capacity...

-Add a table of Monster traits like the one in the SCE book, seems appropriate for the monster faction.

-There needs to be some concession towards the obvious disadvantage vis a vis objectives in matched play, maybe a 'Thunderous Charge' aspect of the allegiance ability which lets you count BCR wounds in range of an objective instead of models on the turn they charge, or something.

-The Hunter is bad, their only real functionality is via the battalion, I would just roll that into the warscroll proper; let the hunter take a non-behemoth BCR unit with them when they deploy off the board, and they can then show up from a table edge or something.

It's quite a tough book to balance competitively I think, if you go slightly too far in either direction it starts to fall apart. 

[AthlorianStoners]

I agree with everyone on the Huskards becoming Priests. A prayers table for them would be amazing.

A BCR’ed up Tyrant would be cool as well, basically a foot mount frost lord 

[kenshin620]

Given how old (man back in like what 6th ed wfb?) and somewhat risky (stupid finecast) Yhetees are, what are some suitable replacement models for them? Can be from non GW origins in my case.

I've seen reaper bones has yetis, but those look barely bigger than a man so I think that they 'll look puny against the real deal. Are the ice/winter trolls from Hordes good enough?

 

[AthlorianStoners]

8 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Given how old (man back in like what 6th ed wfb?) and somewhat risky (stupid finecast) Yhetees are, what are some suitable replacement models for them? Can be from non GW origins in my case.

I've seen reaper bones has yetis, but those look barely bigger than a man so I think that they 'll look puny against the real deal. Are the ice/winter trolls from Hordes good enough?

 

I’m thinking of converting the fell water troggoths up as yhetees

[Kessler]

I don't like the models too, I used 40k clawed fiend for yhetee. Nice dynamic model, although it's hard to change its pose for variation. 

Arm position can be changed a bit, I also filled extra eyes and didn't attach his long tail. 

[hughwyeth]

Nurgle player here, going to be building a BCR/Destruction force late this year, because the models are frikin amazing. I'm not aiming for competitive build, just something fun. I love all the beatclaw models and quite a few destruction models, so for me the issue is whether i break the BCR allegiance to have some mixed destruction or limit myself to 400pts allies to maintain the BCR allegiance abilities. 

I'm currently thinking of getting 2/3 SC BCR boxes and building a Frostlord on Thundertusk as a general, with a couple of beastriders, two packs of mournfangs, ice yhetees and the ice wolf things (Can't remember their names!). I wanted to add 1 or 2 aleguzzlers and fellwater troggoths, again because the models are great (not a tactical decision!). I was however thinking that for some scenarios, this kind of extreme low model count list would be at a considerable disadvantage when you need a unit of 20+ models or "most models" around an objective. Can anyone speak to how this plays out in reality with a BCR list? And does anyone ally in some big model count units? to counter the super low model count issue?

[Kessler]

Check this thread: 

heywoah tried to ally in 20 or 40 gutbuster grots, but as I recall they were too slow and hindered the fast beastclaw.

[heywoah_twitch]

Gutbuster Grots are our only source of 20+ model units, and imo they are past the limit of how bad a warscroll can be to be useful. Not actually cheap at 100 points considering stuff like skinks, skeletons, vulkites, plaguebearers, horrors, liberators exist. Very slow, very weak, very fragile, very bad bravery, no useful special rules. 6+ save, on average if all 20 attack they will do zero or one damage to a 4+ save. Any army with ranged will shoot over them to chart your thundertusk immediately, and now what are they for. Otherwise, they're slow enough to hamper your own movement, but not numerous enough to bubble wrap against alpha deepstrikes, and can't hold an objective (or even really get to one) for their lives.

Is there a use for them in the game at all? Yes, I think in a Gutbuster army, a Tyrant could pound 60 of them into permanent (as long as the tyrant lives) battleshock immunity and be a useful blob of gelatinous meat. In beastclaw, I think if you have 100 extra points, 4 frost sabers and 20 points left over is superior.

Yes, we are at a big disadvantage model-count wise for battleplans, but have your mournfang be in units of 4, take two butchers to try and get a lucky hit buff, and things'll sort themselves out.

PS You like troggoths, the Troggoth Hag is sweet and fits nicely in a BCR army if butchers aren't your thing.

[inq_enzo]

 

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Yes, we are at a big disadvantage model-count wise for battleplans, but have your mournfang be in units of 4, take two butchers to try and get a lucky hit buff, and things'll sort themselves out.

Never take Mournfangs in a unit lager than 2, There is no advantage to that. 2 units of 2 can run around together just like a unit of 4 but you get 2 shots (1 from each of 2 UL)  models and you will get 2 opportunity at a charge. plus you can screen 1 unit so that the 2nd can charge for MWs if you know you are the one going to be charged. And Battle shock will never be a disaster as can never loose more than 1 model.

[hughwyeth]

1 hour ago, inq_enzo said:

 

Never take Mournfangs in a unit lager than 2, There is no advantage to that. 2 units of 2 can run around together just like a unit of 4 but you get 2 shots (1 from each of 2 UL)  models and you will get 2 opportunity at a charge. plus you can screen 1 unit so that the 2nd can charge for MWs if you know you are the one going to be charged. And Battle shock will never be a disaster as can never loose more than 1 model.

Makes sense! I was automatically list building with units of 4 as that's how they come in the SC box, but 2 makes a lot more sense. 

[cxiv]

3 hours ago, inq_enzo said:

 

Never take Mournfangs in a unit lager than 2, There is no advantage to that. 2 units of 2 can run around together just like a unit of 4 but you get 2 shots (1 from each of 2 UL)  models and you will get 2 opportunity at a charge. plus you can screen 1 unit so that the 2nd can charge for MWs if you know you are the one going to be charged. And Battle shock will never be a disaster as can never loose more than 1 model.

So would you reccomend I run a 2x4 Mournfang army as 4x2?

[heywoah_twitch]

17 hours ago, inq_enzo said:

Never take Mournfangs in a unit lager than 2, There is no advantage to that. 2 units of 2 can run around together just like a unit of 4 but you get 2 shots (1 from each of 2 UL)  models and you will get 2 opportunity at a charge. plus you can screen 1 unit so that the 2nd can charge for MWs if you know you are the one going to be charged. And Battle shock will never be a disaster as can never loose more than 1 model.

I disagree.

The advantage of 4 is you get more attacks in one activation. Lots of 2-man msu tends to lose the activation sub-game hard - plus two just aren't impactful enough. Fulminators or Tempestors work in 2s because they are reliable, where mournfang have the gore-grunta problem of being fat guys who miss all the time. Let me put it this way, you activate 2 mournfang vs 10 brutes. Will your other unit of 2 get to go? No. They will be dead. Against many enemies you will only get one activation, and it might as well be with 4-worth of attacks rather than 2. You'll tend to kill more too, which means the swing-back will be weaker, and you'll lose less mournfang, and you'll soften the battleshock you were so concerned about rolling.

Also a unit of 4 absorbs the hit buff from your butcher much better (to set up an actually damaging combat). To fail a battleshock test after 1 mournfang dies you need to roll two 6s in a row - the situation where 2 is better for battleshock is if 12+ damage is dealt in one turn to a unit of 4 and then you roll exactly a 5. At that point I'd say it's being risk-averse to not run 4s on account of battleshock.

Two pistol shots and being able to more easily navigate wyldwoods are the two real advantages of MSU imo, but that's definitely not good enough to never take a unit larger than 2, especially when the butcher hit bonus is about the only good synergy we have. 

[Malakree]

52 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

 Lots of 2-man msu tends to lose the activation sub-game hard - plus two just aren't impactful enough.

This is exactly the logic I use when setting my Ironjawz units into blocks and it has exactly the same concept for BCR, especially when you start including butchers, who are the expensive and random version of our Warchanters.

Just giving up the activation priority is a recipe for disaster in my mind, you just have to look at what an Ironjawz army, which triggers 2/3 smashing and bashing procs in a single turn, does to really appreciate that. Honestly MSU for any combat phase focused army is a horrifically bad idea because it means you just flat lose to any none MSU combat army. Given that combat armies at the moment are being dumpstered by ranged/magic focused armies who have way better kits then also crippling yourself in a mirror seems like a terrible idea to me.

[AthlorianStoners]

Do you guys think taking: 

1 Butcher and 3 Ironguts or 

1 Troggoth Hag 

Is better for my allies? 

[heywoah_twitch]

I don't think Ironguts are that great (for their price), and they are too similar to mournfang statistically. For allies I prefer getting something the army lacks, and we have plenty of 4+ save dudes with rend -1 damage 3 weapons who hit on 4s already.

2x butcher or troggoth hag, depending on whether you're running a bunch of mournfang or not imo.

[hughwyeth]

34 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

I don't think Ironguts are that great (for their price), and they are too similar to mournfang statistically. For allies I prefer getting something the army lacks, and we have plenty of 4+ save dudes with rend -1 damage 3 weapons who hit on 4s already.

2x butcher or troggoth hag, depending on whether you're running a bunch of mournfang or not imo.

Would it not make sense to go for some ironjawz or other force to get some 10/20 model units? EDIT: not sure what allies BCR can take- don't have by book on me!

[heywoah_twitch]

nah just ogors and troggoths I'm afraid.

[hughwyeth]

Ah, so there's no way to get high model count outside of downgrading to GA:Destruction allegiance. 

I guess as I'm not aiming for a competitive build it shouldn't be an issue. I'll likely be playing with open war cards with my BCR force in any case, so low model counts shouldn't be an issue. 

Can they not take Aleguzzler gargants as allies either? I originally wanted BCR core with some troggoths and gargant allies!

[Malakree]

17 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

Ah, so there's no way to get high model count outside of downgrading to GA:Destruction allegiance. 

I guess as I'm not aiming for a competitive build it shouldn't be an issue. I'll likely be playing with open war cards with my BCR force in any case, so low model counts shouldn't be an issue. 

Can they not take Aleguzzler gargants as allies either? I originally wanted BCR core with some troggoths and gargant allies!

You can take Aleguzzlers and Troggoths as allies but each uses a behemoth slot (you have 4) which is really why you play BCR in the first place. If you're just going to ally in everyone elses behemoths then the rest of the BCR roster isn't competitive enough to take over GA:Destruction.

At this point if you're playing BCR you're doing it for the fluff and aesthetics of which the Stonehorns and Thundertusks are core parts.

[inq_enzo]

17 hours ago, cxiv said:

So would you reccomend I run a 2x4 Mournfang army as 4x2?

yes yes and yes.

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The advantage of 4 is you get more attacks in one activation. Lots of 2-man msu tends to lose the activation sub-game hard - plus two just aren't impactful enough. Fulminators or Tempestors work in 2s because they are reliable, where mournfang have the gore-grunta problem of being fat guys who miss all the time. Let me put it this way, you activate 2 mournfang vs 10 brutes. Will your other unit of 2 get to go? No. They will be dead. Against many enemies you will only get one activation, and it might as well be with 4-worth of attacks rather than 2. You'll tend to kill more too, which means the swing-back will be weaker, and you'll lose less mournfang, and you'll soften the battleshock you were so concerned about rolling.

1st this assumes it is your combat so you are going to swing 1st and that there is no other combat on the table that you will need to swing 1st in. If your FL for instants is up against some big bad your going to swing there 1st and then the 10 orks are going to kill 3 or more of your mourfang.  And if it is your combat did you charge? there should be 3 possibly 4 MW on the brutes so there is no longer 10 of them.  Also like gore-gruntas mourfangs are exultant at blocking lanes. the unit of 2 should be sideways like a wall so the orks cant swing at the 2nd unit if they charged the mourfangs because they cant get around them. 

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Also a unit of 4 absorbs the hit buff from your butcher much better (to set up an actually damaging combat). To fail a battleshock test after 1 mournfang dies you need to roll two 6s in a row - the situation where 2 is better for battleshock is if 12+ damage is dealt in one turn to a unit of 4 and then you roll exactly a 5. At that point I'd say it's being risk-averse to not run 4s on account of battleshock.

Two pistol shots and being able to more easily navigate wyldwoods are the two real advantages of MSU imo, but that's definitely not good enough to never take a unit larger than 2, especially when the butcher hit bonus is about the only good synergy we have. 

This assumes you are using the Butcher who is not a BCR model he is an allie-able choice. Now he is a good choice and I do use him but he is not an auto include in a BCR list. And there are other things he can be doing than buffing the mourfangs that is only going to happen by chance on a roll of 3-4 if its the best unit at the time to buff.

And a unit of 4 cost the same as 2 units of 2. and with BCR we dont have many units on the table so more units give you more options. I like to run my mourfangs together when I can, having 2 units of 2 run together gives me many more options during the game. But sometimes I split them up during setup because thats how I need them and other times they split ways during a game to support 2 areas I need them in. You cant do that with a unit of 4. I have even left 2 in battle to tie up an enemy while the other 2 retreated to an objective. That won me that game because in my opponents last turn he could not get to me to take the objective, had he it would have been a tie and I think I would have lost on kill points.

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Just giving up the activation priority is a recipe for disaster in my mind,

You should be giving up a activation priority somewhere in many AOS battles and almost always with BCR. You choose 1 unit to swing then your opponent chooses 1 unit. How often do you have only one close combat going on the table at a time? I normally am in combat turn 1 or 2 the latest and have several combats going at a time. You only get to go 1st with 1 of them all the others you are giving up a activation priority.

 

Those asking about allie units that work well with BCR.  

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For allies I prefer getting something the army lacks, and we have plenty of 4+ save dudes with rend -1 damage 3 weapons who hit on 4s already.

Well said but there is just not many good options. The Butcher is a fine choice because we lack magic. I have also used the Ironblaster to give the shooting we lack, it works well for the most part. I think I would also like to try the Grot Scraplauncher at some point to compare them. I have used Leadbelchers but they are not very effective do to the 12" range they just end up being  a week unit on the board. I would like to try some trolls in the future. I had expected to get Fimir Warriors as an allie and did proxy them in a few games to bad we didn't get them they worked out ok they are what Yettees should be like maybe.

[hughwyeth]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

You can take Aleguzzlers and Troggoths as allies but each uses a behemoth slot (you have 4) which is really why you play BCR in the first place. If you're just going to ally in everyone elses behemoths then the rest of the BCR roster isn't competitive enough to take over GA:Destruction.

At this point if you're playing BCR you're doing it for the fluff and aesthetics of which the Stonehorns and Thundertusks are core parts.

I thought thundertusk and stonehorn beastriders are battleline if you have BCR allegiance and that they lose the behemoth role?

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, hughwyeth said:

I thought thundertusk and stonehorn beastriders are battleline if you have BCR allegiance and that they lose the behemoth role?

They become battleline but are still behemoths

[SolarBur]

Well i finally got my very first game with the raiders on tuesday, and they really surprised me with how vicious they are. Still lost the game, but i was learning the army and going through the basics in AoS, so i'm not too put off by the loss. Plus the staff members list was a bit... well not really newbie friendly. It wasn't that he was playing something cheesey, but more that it was all the models he had for the army at the time ^^;;

I was running:

Hunter 

Stonehorn Beastriders

4 Mournfang Riders with Ironfists

8 Frost Sabres (well frost pigs, had to proxy in boars)

up against:

Rotigus

Horticulous Slimux

10 Plague Bearers

10 Plague Bearers

Beast of Nurgle 

Beast of Nurgle

 

So yeah, turn 1 losing half the wounds (even with stone skeleton) off of my stonehorn was a bit crippling. Though the Mournfang put the fright on Rotigus, taking him down to 14 wounds before he healed up in the following nurgle turn 2. Though he never got back past 5 wounds left for the rest of the game. 

Playing with the army as is for my first game, i got to appreciate the simple raw power that the army has, that initial charge can be literally earth shattering. Though i got a bit bogged down by the extra save the nurgle stuff has, it does make me excited to try out my next list at 1500pts, and if i get to play against something that just has a standard save, i look forward to the red smear i leave on the ground >:3

also, i've been trying to come up with something for my yhetee's, just a small kitbash. what do you think ? 

https://imgur.com/a/QZHJf

[hughwyeth]

10 hours ago, SolarBur said:

Well i finally got my very first game with the raiders on tuesday, and they really surprised me with how vicious they are. Still lost the game, but i was learning the army and going through the basics in AoS, so i'm not too put off by the loss. Plus the staff members list was a bit... well not really newbie friendly. It wasn't that he was playing something cheesey, but more that it was all the models he had for the army at the time ^^;;

................

So yeah, turn 1 losing half the wounds (even with stone skeleton) off of my stonehorn was a bit crippling. Though the Mournfang put the fright on Rotigus, taking him down to 14 wounds before he healed up in the following nurgle turn 2. Though he never got back past 5 wounds left for the rest of the game. 

Playing with the army as is for my first game, i got to appreciate the simple raw power that the army has, that initial charge can be literally earth shattering. Though i got a bit bogged down by the extra save the nurgle stuff has, it does make me excited to try out my next list at 1500pts, and if i get to play against something that just has a standard save, i look forward to the red smear i leave on the ground >:3

also, i've been trying to come up with something for my yhetee's, just a small kitbash. what do you think ? 

https://imgur.com/a/QZHJf

Great to read this- I'll be starting my force in the coming months and shattering charges is not something my nurgle force does! Rotigus/Great Unclean Ones are very hard to get rid of, so understandable you couldn't remove him.

Your kitbash is amazing and looks much nicer than the yhetee models from GW! How did you do them?