Lets Chat Wanderers / Wood Elves compendium

[Tidings]

Clearly not balanced? I dunno, high elf archers are 100 points and are a copy and paste of Glade Guard, except their ability is mathematically identical on high armor targets, and mathematically superior against lower armor targets. The only other difference is that they are not battleline. 

The Wild Rider and Avatar of the Hunt changes he proposed are very similar to what many other armies already have. Giving rending or bonus attacks is pretty par for the course in AoS. And a lot of times those buffs come from support units, not generals. 

Kurnoths getting a 20 point raise makes sense, but the 40 point raise they got feels like a knee-****** reaction to people crying about bow hunters, who really don't do much damage, especially compared to cheaper units like Vangaurd Raptors, Jezhails, etc. 

And Sisters of the Watch are flat out worse than Glade Guard. For almost the same points you have 20 shots that fire regardless of moving, you have an alpha strike turn, you don't loose as much damage from each wound taken, and you have slightly better range. His proposed changes make a lot of sense for a high cost, elite unit. Frankly I just wish they would give Waywatchers back, because they were fun and had an interesting mechanic that set them apart from Glade Guard. 

A lot of what @WABBIT proposed isn't out of the question. 

[WABBIT]

3 hours ago, Aezeal said:

It's clearly intended the fest dragon is the smaller cousin to the other dragons. Not to mention his breath ability is great (PS also has one jaw attack for d6 wounds less).

Where is this clear intention demonstrated?  It's doesn't say that anywhere?

It's the same points as other dragon riders and it doesn't have a shooting attack or do any mortal wounds or have any access to buffs like the nomad anymore while others do so why is it so expensive? It's ability is great I agree but it's not better than the other dragons abilities.

[Tidings]

By the way, I noticed a very interesting thing that could allow us to have all the models we just lost back as Wanderers! Check this out from the FAQ:

"Q: If I have two different warscrolls for the same unit, 
can I choose which to use, or must I use the most recently 
published version?
A: You can choose which warscroll to use, but it may 
be more convenient for your opponent if you use the 
most recently published version, especially if the earlier 
version is no longer readily available."

In the rules it clearly says you have to use the most recent points profile. BUT this means we can use the old warscrolls! You still have to pay the new points cost, but the old Warscroll can be used and they have the Wanderer keyword, so I'm crying myself to sleep with joy tonight!!

[WABBIT]

15 minutes ago, Tidings said:

By the way, I noticed a very interesting thing that could allow us to have all the models we just lost back as Wanderers! Check this out from the FAQ:

"Q: If I have two different warscrolls for the same unit, 
can I choose which to use, or must I use the most recently 
published version?
A: You can choose which warscroll to use, but it may 
be more convenient for your opponent if you use the 
most recently published version, especially if the earlier 
version is no longer readily available."

In the rules it clearly says you have to use the most recent points profile. BUT this means we can use the old warscrolls! You still have to pay the new points cost, but the old Warscroll can be used and they have the Wanderer keyword, so I'm crying myself to sleep with joy tonight!!

 

[Kugane]

9 hours ago, Tidings said:

By the way, I noticed a very interesting thing that could allow us to have all the models we just lost back as Wanderers! Check this out from the FAQ:

"Q: If I have two different warscrolls for the same unit, 
can I choose which to use, or must I use the most recently 
published version?
A: You can choose which warscroll to use, but it may 
be more convenient for your opponent if you use the 
most recently published version, especially if the earlier 
version is no longer readily available."

In the rules it clearly says you have to use the most recent points profile. BUT this means we can use the old warscrolls! You still have to pay the new points cost, but the old Warscroll can be used and they have the Wanderer keyword, so I'm crying myself to sleep with joy tonight!!

I am amazed this is even a thing. I would assume that any changes in warscrolls are to nerf an overpowered unit? 

[WABBIT]

22 minutes ago, Kugane said:

I am amazed this is even a thing. I would assume that any changes in warscrolls are to nerf an overpowered unit? 

Not really. many changes are to older compendium scrolls and make them less appealing. Most were never great to begin with. Its marketing pressure to prize us away from older models and embrace (Buy) newer models.

[Aezeal]

19 minutes ago, Kugane said:

I am amazed this is even a thing. I would assume that any changes in warscrolls are to nerf an overpowered unit? 

This rule is not new.. and I'm pretty sure many opponents would not like playing it that way. One of my opponents already seems to think I'm "that guy" for using 2+ rr TLA and 6 bow hunters...Its stupid but I'm not using this to avoid more whining.

[Aezeal]

5 minutes ago, WABBIT said:

Not really. many changes are to older compendium scrolls and make them less appealing. Most were never great to begin with.

The current changes where mostly lazy and just deleting any link to the old world and any ability targeting wanderers. I'm actually surprised the standard bearer actually got a new not completely useless ability... But after that I think their boss said.. I want this this and this and be done in 5 min....

[WABBIT]

10 hours ago, Tidings said:

And Sisters of the Watch are flat out worse than Glade Guard. For almost the same points you have 20 shots that fire regardless of moving, you have an alpha strike turn, you don't lose as much damage from each wound taken, and you have slightly better range. 

You also get 20 wounds of GG vs 10 wounds from Sisters. 6 Save vs 5 save isn't enough to justify the points gap. If I were power playing I wouldn't use Sister's unless it was vs chaos - the 2 to wound is nice and rend helps. Wanderers just need a 2016 version Kurnoth type unit - cost effective, tough and punchy. 3 Attributes lacking in every wanderer unit for its points cost.

[Kugane]

30 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

The current changes where mostly lazy and just deleting any link to the old world and any ability targeting wanderers. I'm actually surprised the standard bearer actually got a new not completely useless ability... But after that I think their boss said.. I want this this and this and be done in 5 min....

I still find it amazing how they tried to cut off all ties with older armies and changed so much. They should have stuck with point changes only. I think many people are now having the issue that their army has fallen apart with no recovery other than going to the shop and buying more units. 

[WABBIT]

You know what would work better is if GW retired compendium models as and when they released newer replacement models and war scrolls. Part of the reason for the community upset is not having anything to replace the huge gap removing compendium models has left. I understand why GW has retired the old stuff but not knowing IF or WHEN or WHAT those units will be replaced with creates anxiety and negativity in the community. IF Wanderers get new Dragon, Avatar, Eagle rider, wild rider, archer units in the next few months then fantastic. If we never will then thats upsetting. Not knowing just promotes more negativity and anxiety. By releasing new stuff before retiring old you manage expectations much better and promote positive reactions. We can plan our spending instead of take risks on what might happen.

[Tidings]

43 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

This rule is not new.. and I'm pretty sure many opponents would not like playing it that way. One of my opponents already seems to think I'm "that guy" for using 2+ rr TLA and 6 bow hunters...Its stupid but I'm not using this to avoid more whining.

My opponents are way more friendly, they understand that the keyword removal had nothing to do with game balance and was just GW caring more about sales than quality of game. During local tournaments I'll obviously have to only use the latest warscrolls but for casual games no problem. 

2 minutes ago, WABBIT said:

You know what would work better is if GW retired compendium models as and when they released newer replacement models and war scrolls. Part of the reason for the community upset is not having anything to replace the huge gap removing compendium models has left. I understand why GW has retired the old stuff but not knowing IF or WHEN or WHAT those units will be replaced with creates anxiety and negativity in the community. IF Wanderers get new Dragon, Avatar, Eagle rider, wild rider, archer units in the next few months then fantastic. If we never will then thats upsetting. Not knowing just promotes more negativity and anxiety. By releasing new stuff before retiring old you manage expectations much better and promote positive reactions. We can plan our spending instead of take risks on what might happen.

This is literally exactly what I was saying in another thread about this! Couldn't agree more. 

[Thegiantpeanut]

I think its a shame that the compendium has lost alot of the keywords but at the end of the day they are not really made for match play or tournaments.  GW isnt going to put the time and energy into playtesting and rules writing for units they no longer make a profit on.

If I played a friendly game I would be totally fine with people running compendium units with keywords/older warscrolls/made up warscrolls etc.  In a tournament or competitive game?  Not so much.  The compendiums have their place, Aos has been very lucky to receive so much support for discontinued models, 40k dropped many units and army's in a blink of an eye as soon as the models were scrapped.  I think the wood elf compendium has done well when you compare it to others such as skaven.

 

[WABBIT]

Great minds Tidings 

 

@GiantPeanut. yeah I think things could have been much worse. I am glad GW haven't just deleted them completely and I recognise the effort they have gone to ease the older models out. It was never going to be easy to accept and as you say its only really enforced at events and Tourneys.  Hopefully we all have understanding friends who will let us continue using older units/scrolls the way we want to.

[Tidings]

3 minutes ago, Thegiantpeanut said:

I think its a shame that the compendium has lost alot of the keywords but at the end of the day they are not really made for match play or tournaments.  GW isnt going to put the time and energy into playtesting and rules writing for units they no longer make a profit on.

If I played a friendly game I would be totally fine with people running compendium units with keywords/older warscrolls/made up warscrolls etc.  In a tournament or competitive game?  Not so much.  The compendiums have their place, Aos has been very lucky to receive so much support for discontinued models, 40k dropped many units and army's in a blink of an eye as soon as the models were scrapped.  I think the wood elf compendium has done well when you compare it to others such as skaven.

 

I understand they aren't made for tournaments, but the warscrolls were pretty underpowered compared to new stuff already. And Wanderers lost a ton of unit selection when Sylvaneth got removed as a separate faction. The warscrolls were already designed and tested, things didn't change so much that they needed to be removed. It was a purely business decision that came a bit early unless we are getting new Aelves soon. And honestly, they were still making money on it. Most people making forest dragons were buying the high elf dragon, Witch Elves for Wardancers, Wildwood rangers for Waywatchers, etc. 

Yeah I agree GW has done well overall considering AoS is a new game. But in a game where armies battle and people spend hundreds of dollars and hours on an army, they should be pretty balanced next to each other, regardless of some being newer or older. If not, the quality of the game suffers, which drives players away. 

Side note - I'm super envious of Skaven's massive mortal wound output, especially units like Jezhails which are way more lethal shooters than anything Wood Elves have

[Thegiantpeanut]

Very true, didn't think about the conversions etc.  I guess we can just hope that there are more pointy eared trees huggers coming in the future.

8 minutes ago, Tidings said:

Side note - I'm super envious of Skaven's massive mortal wound output, especially units like Jezhails which are way more lethal shooters than anything Wood Elves have

Yeah! I feel high cost, high damage/mortal wound output stuff is whats missing from the wanderers.  I am trying to get a 2500 list together and struggling as I dont want to be painting masses of infantry.  I guess allies has helped this a bit.  They need their dragons back!

[WABBIT]

Mortal wounds? What's that? Never heard of them. Is it a new thing?

[Tidings]

Seriously! I started collecting Wood Elves 14 years ago and they were an elite army with super low model counts. Now I can barely field 2000 points, since you basically need like 50+ GG and tons of Eternal Guard. And I'm using the old metal Eternal Guard too... prefer how they look and want them to match so it's a little rough

[WABBIT]

I'm quite glad we need more models I like big armies. I Did'nt like 3 man Way watcher units. I have over 120 Glade guard from the "winter" years (9years without a new army book!) and mass shooting was the only viable build in 7th and 8th ed (i never played 5th, 6th and 7th editions - I started on 2nd, played 3rd a lot and stopped not long after 4th for money reasons (Student debt!!!)). I stopped playing Wood Elves once my opponents finally figured out how to easy it was to beat a shooting army (MSU Fast moving units, tough Monsters etc) In those days wood elves could shoot. Now they are one of the worst shooting armies. It annoys me greatly that savage orruks can fire on average 7 shots a turn with kunnin ruk and that a battleline unit with 2 wounds, better combat stats and for LESS points! Criminal. 

 

When you have 120+ models and their war scroll is rubbish it really hurts. 

[Thegiantpeanut]

I feel like glad guard only work in mass units, I was surprised they didnt get massive regiment points.

I am trying to make an army fielded mainly from sisters of the watch.  Despite their points cost I think they will be fun in msu with the new ghb.  The new allegiance abilities have helped bring the flavor back but glade guard need some looking at for sure.  On the bright side their models are cheap still!

[Kugane]

2 hours ago, WABBIT said:

You know what would work better is if GW retired compendium models as and when they released newer replacement models and war scrolls. Part of the reason for the community upset is not having anything to replace the huge gap removing compendium models has left. I understand why GW has retired the old stuff but not knowing IF or WHEN or WHAT those units will be replaced with creates anxiety and negativity in the community. IF Wanderers get new Dragon, Avatar, Eagle rider, wild rider, archer units in the next few months then fantastic. If we never will then thats upsetting. Not knowing just promotes more negativity and anxiety. By releasing new stuff before retiring old you manage expectations much better and promote positive reactions. We can plan our spending instead of take risks on what might happen.

This explains how I feel... I rejoined Warhammer (now age of sigmar) after a break about a year ago and decided to start collecting new armies, kind of searching which playstyle I like the most. I am back to being a student, so I have been on a budget the past year, trying to keep my purchases below 120$/month. All in all, I purchased enough models to be able to field 4 seperate 2000 point armies under the old GHB rules.

I have been busy painting and converting all my purchases this year and was NEARLY ready to start fielding my own units rather than borrowing them from friends, only to find out that yet again I cannot build a single competitive list due to all these gaping holes of support. I now have 1400$ worth of miniatures on display that are incompatible with eachother. I don't mind starting yet another army, but given the fact it'll probably take me at least 4 months (realistically about a year) to finish it, I feel anxious to purchase anything now. I guess it is back to Skirmish games haha.

[WABBIT]

I would prefer much more advanced warning with greater details of what is changing, when it's expected and why it's changing would be better than simply hinting at changes and then springing a load of difficult updates on us. I too had just finished 20 wardancers using Witch elves conversions, LOTR Eagles and GG riders for Warhawks and or Eagles with Lords (I know they are too big for warhawks but I don't care and it's to my opponent's advantage not mine as they are easier to see  for LOS.) I finished 18 of my 24 Wild Riders for 8th ed only to find them useless in AoS, they get wiped in one or two rounds every time with little impact to the enemy. Hence my move to Sylvaneth so GW's approach of making compendium units and older armies uncompetitive is working profit wise  Hey we all need to make a living and WHFB was suffering from too many players with old models refusing to buy new ones. I can see both sides. Venting is good, it shows we still care. If the boards are silent I would be worried for GW. They do awesome work even if they frustrate us at times. They are 100 million times better at customer/community engagement than they used to be so hats off there.

[Tidings]

1 hour ago, Thegiantpeanut said:

I feel like glad guard only work in mass units, I was surprised they didnt get massive regiment points.

I am trying to make an army fielded mainly from sisters of the watch.  Despite their points cost I think they will be fun in msu with the new ghb.  The new allegiance abilities have helped bring the flavor back but glade guard need some looking at for sure.  On the bright side their models are cheap still!

The main problem I have with Sisters of the Watch is they are only slightly better than Glade Guard while they are standing still. In a gunline list with tons of EG and Sylvaneth/Stormcast as allies this could work well enough. But the Sisters don't synergize with the teleport we just got at all, since that counts as a move. If they could shoot twice regardless, they would be much more viable. Also, their reactionary shot against charges almost never comes into play, because most of the time enemies simply pile into them. Sure you could leave them off on their own to prevent that, but they are awfully expensive and fragile for using this way. So, all in all, I find Glade Guard to be the clear winner between the two. 

[Freejack02]

13 hours ago, Tidings said:

I dunno, high elf archers are 100 points and are a copy and paste of Glade Guard, except their ability is mathematically identical on high armor targets, and mathematically superior against lower armor targets. The only other difference is that they are not battleline. 

While it is true the profiles are practically identical, the -3 rend is always superior against-high armor targets (I define high-armor as 3+ or more, so this is likely the difference).  A full 30 block of Highborn unleashing storm will deal ~6.7 after a 3+ save, while the GG with bodkins are at ~8.6 after save.  The gap of course widens at 2+ and below. 

[Tidings]

At a 4+ save they do identical damage, and the majority of units in AoS, including Stormcast and most heroes, are at a 4+ or higher. At 5+ and worse, the high elves do much more damage. Since that's the more common scenario, I don't get why the high elf archers are cheaper. If the points were flipped it would make more sense to me, especially since Wanderers' whole theme is archery lol.